The Banesto Train in the mountains

[Mrs John Murphy]

Another example of the Banesto train in full cry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs

 

[VeloCity]

So you are saying the 80's and the 90's were similiar.
Individual against Individual.
Strongest Rider wins.
Ok, sounds fair.

But what changed with Postal/Disco.
What did they do different from the 80's/90's?

The EPO era ended and hydration/transfusion came into play.
Genius Tactics and Team Building.
Emphasis on a climbing team.
(More commonplace now duh. CopyCats)
But what did Postal do different from the 90's Banesto etc?
What did Postal do different from their contemporaries Telekom Kelme etc?
They kicked **** - one major difference lol.

USPS did the same thing that Gewiss did in '94 that transformed them into the dominant team.

I think World Class Sprint Teams are harder to coordinate/build.
Lets just agree to disagree?

Agree

 

[Polish]

USPS did the same thing that Gewiss did in '94 that transformed them into the dominant team.
Agree

Gewiss was doped to the gills with EPO in 1994.
Past the gills even.
Team Fail.

Can not even compare them to USPostal.
Fail Class versus World Class.

Ok, lets compare them lol.

USPostal had IV Hydration recovery systems. On Bus System sometimes.
Blood Transfusions like the other teams.
Flatland workhorses and climbing angels balanced to near perfection.
True Musketeer Status. All for one and one for all.
Chef Duffy a great cook.
I could go on and on.
Postal World Class, Gewiss Fail Class.
Should not have even compared them oh well too late

 

[Zweistein]

gewiss was doped to the gills with epo in 1994.
Past the gills even.
Team fail.

Can not even compare them to uspostal.
Fail class versus world class.

Ok, lets compare them lol.

Uspostal had iv hydration recovery systems. On bus system sometimes.
Blood transfusions like the other teams plus bribes and hack charity.
flatland workhorses that climbed like angels.
uci hiding doping positives
true dictator status. All for one lance even he needs a tow everywhere.
chef duffy a great cook.
I could go on and on.
Postal dopestrong, gewiss needed a better doc.
Postal has more riders likely to go to jail for perjury.
GEWISS RIDERS DID HAVE TWO BALLS. gotta give them that
Should not have even compared them oh well too late

fixed the typos for you

 

[Exroadman24902]

If it was true to USPS tactics, Jeff would have pegged it (like in a lead out train for a sprinter) so Bugno couldn't attack. Instead, Jeff road steady - which meant he got dropped a couple of times, and clawed his way back.

It's a GREAT ride, but not a USPS-type launching for Mig.

I saw it, watched after. Pls stop telling me what happened. I know. Jeff bernard went from 3 years of anonymity to best cimber in the world..had he ridden for himself he might have won, and Luc who?? ..Lemond, Fignon, Delgado, alll the riders who should have been ahead were behind.

Indurain clocked 39 minutes on the Alpe that day, so quite how one of the fastest ever ascents can have been achieved if Jeff Bernard "rode steady" is not clear to me. He dropped Indurain off at around 5-6km to go and returned from one of Bugno's most powerful attacks.

 

[L'arriviste]

Gewiss was doped to the gills with EPO in 1994.
Past the gills even.
Team Fail.

Can not even compare them to USPostal.
Fail Class versus World Class.

Ok, lets compare them lol.

USPostal had IV Hydration recovery systems. On Bus System sometimes.
Blood Transfusions like the other teams.
Flatland workhorses and climbing angels balanced to near perfection.
True Musketeer Status. All for one and one for all.
Chef Duffy a great cook.
I could go on and on.
Postal World Class, Gewiss Fail Class.
Should not have even compared them oh well too late

You're trolling and you're off topic, but it should always be remembered that US Postal merely stood on the shoulders of years of trial-and-error (state-funded) research by Conconi and his academic abetters (Ferrari, Casoni, Grazzi, Cecchini et al). With your topsy-turvy sense of morality, you should think of Gewiss as the pioneers and Postal as the buccaneers.

Lol, as you so eloquently put it.

 

[hrotha]

Jeff bernard went from 3 years of anonymity to best cimber in the world..had he ridden for himself he might have won

Is that hyperbole, or just plain BS?

 

[Hawkwood]

Is that hyperbole, or just plain BS?

Agree, he was touted as Hinault's successor in the early 1980s, the next big French rider.

 

[blutto]

Agree, he was touted as Hinault's successor in the early 1980s, the next big French rider.

...from Wikipedia, the fount of all true knowledge...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-François Bernard (born May 2, 1962 at Luzy, Bourgogne, France) is a former French professional road bicycle racer. He turned professional in 1984 for La Vie Claire, led by Bernard Hinault. He was seen as Hinault’s successor as a winner of stage races from 1986.

Bernard wore the maillot jaune in the 1987 Tour de France and won two stages, both time trials, including one on Mont Ventoux. He finished the race third behind Stephen Roche of Ireland and Pedro Delgado of Spain.

He won three stages in the 1988 Giro d'Italia and led the race, but he crashed in a tunnel, injured his back and abandoned the race. The next year he needed an operation and months of recuperation for fibrosis in his left knee.

A saddle sore and another operation forced him out of the 1990 Tour de France.[1] He never again challenged in the grands tours. In 1991 he joined the Spanish team, Banesto which had two leaders for stage races in Delgado and Miguel Indurain. Bernard helped Indurain dominate the Tour.

Bernard won the 1992 Paris–Nice
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
....he was the French equivalent of Roberto Vinsentini...a hugely talented rider who was, as they say, fragile....and ironically, as Vinsentini, was, at least partially, done in by some Roche instigated treachery in the 87 Tour during Roche's grand year of treacherous gains...when signed to Banesto he was awarded a huge contract rumoured to be around $500,00/yr...and in a role without the pressure of leadership he performed monster work for Indurain in the Tour...


Cheers

blutto

 

[VeloCity]

Gewiss was doped to the gills with EPO in 1994.
Past the gills even.
Team Fail.

by 1994, so was everyone else doped to the gills with EPO. So why were Gewiss so dominant that year?

USPostal had IV Hydration recovery systems. On Bus System sometimes.
Blood Transfusions like the other teams.
Flatland workhorses and climbing angels balanced to near perfection.
True Musketeer Status. All for one and one for all.
Chef Duffy a great cook.
I could go on and on.
Postal World Class,
Should not have even compared them oh well too late

So did T-Mob and ONCE and probably every other top GT team. So why was USPS so dominant?

Let's put it this way: what's the one thing that Gewiss and USPS had in common?

 

[blutto]

Here's a proof of the whole banesto train in full action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jRU2XoD7MU&feature=player_detailpage#t=119s

....thank you so very much for that link...it was a real pleasure to watch the highlights of probably my favourite Tour TT...it was great to again see LeMond crushed like a grape and yes it nicely confirmed the strength of the Banesto team...gosh, they had 30% of the top 10 placing in that stage...and add to those three riders Jeff Bernard and Melchor Mori and you have a powerhouse support team for Indurain...

...and for the doubters of the power that Banesto had in those days find below the top 20 GC finishers in the 91 Tour....

1. Miguel Indurain (Banesto) 101hr 1min 20sec 2. Gianni Bugno (Gatorade) @ 3min 36sec 3. Claudio Chiappucci (Carrera Jeans) @ 5min 56sec 4. Charly Mottet (RMO) @ 7min 37sec 5. Luc Leblanc (Castorama) @ 10min 10sec 6. Laurent Fignon (Castorama) @ 11min 27sec 7. Greg LeMond (Z) @ 13mi 13sec 8. Andy Hampsten (Motorola) @ 13min 40sec 9. Pedro Delgado (Banesto) @ 20min 10sec 10. Gérard Rué (Helvetia) @ 20min 13sec 11. Eduardo Chozas (ONCE) @ 21min 12. Abelardo Rondon (Banesto) @ 26min 47sec 13. Gert-Jan Theunisse (TVM) @ 27min 10sec 14. Jean-François Bernard (Banesto) 28min 57sec 15. Maurizio Fondriest (Panasonic) @ 30min 9sec 16. Denis Roux (Toshiba) @ 30min 40sec 17. Éric Caritoux (RMO) @ 32min 39sec 18. Alberto Camargo (Ryalco) @ 32min 54sec 19. Alvaro Mejia (Ryalco) @ 33min 52sec 20. Frédéric Vichot (Castorama) @ 36min 43s

...note that Banesto had 33% of the top 12 finishers...and further note that the 91 Banesto Tour team also included Melchor Mori who was a monster helper in that Tour...

....again, thanks for that link...it was great fun to watch and nicely puts to rest any questions about the overwhelming strength of Banesto in those days..

Cheers

blutto

 

[GJB123]

I guess it shouldn't be a problem then showing a video link of the "Banesto train" demolishing all GC contenders in mountain stage by relentlessly pounding away for 2 or mountains with let's say 4 or 5 domestiques.

In other words, those numbers prove diddly sh*t in comparsion to the MO of the USPS train.

Regards
GJ

 

[Exroadman24902]

Another example of the Banesto train in full cry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs

You an Indurain fanboy? Two guys in your youtube clip who absolutely deserve their 7 grand tour wins each.

 

[Escarabajo]

The fact that googling the phrase "banesto train" leads only back to this thread in circular interweb motion is all I need to be convinced that they were all dopers and all of their results should be replaced with the names of disney princesses. Thanks for raising the issue, it's truly relevant.

LOL.

What train??

I remember a couple of times only.

Indurain sat on everybody's wheel in the mountains all the time.

 

[Hawkwood]

....he was the French equivalent of Roberto Vinsentini...a hugely talented rider who was, as they say, fragile....and ironically, as Vinsentini, was, at least partially, done in by some Roche instigated treachery in the 87 Tour during Roche's grand year of treacherous gains...when signed to Banesto he was awarded a huge contract rumoured to be around $500,00/yr...and in a role without the pressure of leadership he performed monster work for Indurain in the Tour...


Cheers

blutto

I've got a poster somewhere of Hinault and another Gitaine rider (Bernard?) in a two man break in the Giro, it's a great picture with the snow and the mountains etc. I've also got an old Mirroir with Jeff on the front being promoted as the next big French rider. As you say he was fragile, but then so was Roche, he had a great first season winning Paris-Nice then ran into health problems, was it his knees?

 

[VeloCity]

....thank you so very much for that link...it was a real pleasure to watch the highlights of probably my favourite Tour TT...it was great to again see LeMond crushed like a grape and yes it nicely confirmed the strength of the Banesto team...gosh, they had 30% of the top 10 placing in that stage...and add to those three riders Jeff Bernard and Melchor Mori and you have a powerhouse support team for Indurain...

...and for the doubters of the power that Banesto had in those days find below the top 20 GC finishers in the 91 Tour....

1. Miguel Indurain (Banesto) 101hr 1min 20sec 2. Gianni Bugno (Gatorade) @ 3min 36sec 3. Claudio Chiappucci (Carrera Jeans) @ 5min 56sec 4. Charly Mottet (RMO) @ 7min 37sec 5. Luc Leblanc (Castorama) @ 10min 10sec 6. Laurent Fignon (Castorama) @ 11min 27sec 7. Greg LeMond (Z) @ 13mi 13sec 8. Andy Hampsten (Motorola) @ 13min 40sec 9. Pedro Delgado (Banesto) @ 20min 10sec 10. Gérard Rué (Helvetia) @ 20min 13sec 11. Eduardo Chozas (ONCE) @ 21min 12. Abelardo Rondon (Banesto) @ 26min 47sec 13. Gert-Jan Theunisse (TVM) @ 27min 10sec 14. Jean-François Bernard (Banesto) 28min 57sec 15. Maurizio Fondriest (Panasonic) @ 30min 9sec 16. Denis Roux (Toshiba) @ 30min 40sec 17. Éric Caritoux (RMO) @ 32min 39sec 18. Alberto Camargo (Ryalco) @ 32min 54sec 19. Alvaro Mejia (Ryalco) @ 33min 52sec 20. Frédéric Vichot (Castorama) @ 36min 43s

...note that Banesto had 33% of the top 12 finishers...and further note that the 91 Banesto Tour team also included Melchor Mori who was a monster helper in that Tour...

....again, thanks for that link...it was great fun to watch and nicely puts to rest any questions about the overwhelming strength of Banesto in those days..

Cheers

blutto

I don't think you've quite grasped the point of this thread. If Banesto riders dominated throughout Indurain's reign, then sure, it's a valid comparison. But they didn't. There was no train of 4-5 Banesto domestiques surrounding Indurain on the climbs like we commonly saw year after year with USPS.

Besides, it's still apples and oranges: we know for a fact that Armstrong's various lieutenants over the years - Andreu, Hincapie, Heras, Landis, Hamilton, Beltran - were doping. We can only suspect that Banesto's were doing the same. In other words, (a) Armstrong/USPS is current news because of Landis/Novitzky and (b) there's a ton of evidence that Armstrong/USPS were doping. Indurain/Banesto were (a) 20 years ago and (b) there's only scrips and scraps of evidence.

Which one do you think is going to get the most attention??

 

[Exroadman24902]

I don't think you've quite grasped the point of this thread. If Banesto riders dominated throughout Indurain's reign, then sure, it's a valid comparison. But they didn't. There was no train of 4-5 Banesto domestiques surrounding Indurain on the climbs like we commonly saw year after year with USPS.

Besides, it's still apples and oranges: we know for a fact that Armstrong's various lieutenants over the years - Andreu, Hincapie, Heras, Landis, Hamilton, Beltran - were doping. We can only suspect that Banesto's were doing the same. In other words, (a) Armstrong/USPS is current news because of Landis/Novitzky and (b) there's a ton of evidence that Armstrong/USPS were doping. Indurain/Banesto were (a) 20 years ago and (b) there's only scrips and scraps of evidence.

Which one do you think is going to get the most attention??

No you don't. Indurain's last win was 1995 and only 4 and 5 years later Armstrong was winning the same race..same generation, same lack of previous 3 week grand tour GC form, same number of grand tour wins while EPO was widely in use...eh..but Velo City only wants one of them done. Indurain fanboy are you VC?

 

[pmcg76]

....thank you so very much for that link...it was a real pleasure to watch the highlights of probably my favourite Tour TT...it was great to again see LeMond crushed like a grape and yes it nicely confirmed the strength of the Banesto team...gosh, they had 30% of the top 10 placing in that stage...and add to those three riders Jeff Bernard and Melchor Mori and you have a powerhouse support team for Indurain...

...and for the doubters of the power that Banesto had in those days find below the top 20 GC finishers in the 91 Tour....

1. Miguel Indurain (Banesto) 101hr 1min 20sec 2. Gianni Bugno (Gatorade) @ 3min 36sec 3. Claudio Chiappucci (Carrera Jeans) @ 5min 56sec 4. Charly Mottet (RMO) @ 7min 37sec 5. Luc Leblanc (Castorama) @ 10min 10sec 6. Laurent Fignon (Castorama) @ 11min 27sec 7. Greg LeMond (Z) @ 13mi 13sec 8. Andy Hampsten (Motorola) @ 13min 40sec 9. Pedro Delgado (Banesto) @ 20min 10sec 10. Gérard Rué (Helvetia) @ 20min 13sec 11. Eduardo Chozas (ONCE) @ 21min 12. Abelardo Rondon (Banesto) @ 26min 47sec 13. Gert-Jan Theunisse (TVM) @ 27min 10sec 14. Jean-François Bernard (Banesto) 28min 57sec 15. Maurizio Fondriest (Panasonic) @ 30min 9sec 16. Denis Roux (Toshiba) @ 30min 40sec 17. Éric Caritoux (RMO) @ 32min 39sec 18. Alberto Camargo (Ryalco) @ 32min 54sec 19. Alvaro Mejia (Ryalco) @ 33min 52sec 20. Frédéric Vichot (Castorama) @ 36min 43s

...note that Banesto had 33% of the top 12 finishers...and further note that the 91 Banesto Tour team also included Melchor Mori who was a monster helper in that Tour...

....again, thanks for that link...it was great fun to watch and nicely puts to rest any questions about the overwhelming strength of Banesto in those days..

Cheers

blutto

Melchor Mauri only was on one of Indurain's successful Banesto teams in 94 so not sure where you are getting that one.

On the 91 Banesto team, Delgado was a former Tour winner regarded as one of the best climbers of his generation and Bernard a Tour podium finisher who regularly won mountain TTs. Rondon was widely regarded as one of the best mountain domestiques of his generation. That was before the EPO generation arrived so I dont think seeing those guys finishing high up in the Tour or riding strongly in the mountains as surprising.

Yes they had a very strong team but the comparison with early US Postal and guys like Hamilton, Livingston, Landis, Hincapie, Vandedvelde who had little climbing pedigree in comparison to the Banesto guys mentioned is stretching it.

Later on guys like Heras, Rubiera, Beltran, Azevedo had climbing pedigree before they arrived at Postal so it wasnt exactly surprising to see then drilling it on mountain stages. I think the issue is more with guys like Hincapie, Andreu, Joachim being on the front in the mountains.

In summary, was there a Banesto train, yes a handful of guys with high pedigree but it was limited in comparison to the Postal train where even the lower level domestiques were frequently to be seen on the front in the mountains.

 

[VeloCity]

No you don't. Indurain's last win was 1995 and only 4 and 5 years later Armstrong was winning the same race..same generation, same lack of previous 3 week grand tour GC form, same number of grand tour wins while EPO was widely in use...eh..but Velo City only wants one of them done. Indurain fanboy are you VC?

Which one is currently in the news? Which one is under current federal investigation? Yeah, shocking we don't give them the same attention.

 

[VeloCity]

I think the issue is more with guys like Hincapie, Andreu, Joachim being on the front in the mountains.

In summary, was there a Banesto train, yes a handful of guys with high pedigree but it was limited in comparison to the Postal train where even the lower level domestiques were frequently to be seen on the front in the mountains.

I don't recall Jose Luis Arrieta ever winning the Queen Stage of the Tour.

 

[hrotha]

I don't recall Jose Luis Arrieta ever winning the Queen Stage of the Tour.

He was the first man up the Tourmalet once. From a breakaway. Highlight of his career up to that point, even though he was more of a natural climber than Hincapie.

 

[VeloCity]

He was the first man up the Tourmalet once. From a breakaway. Highlight of his career up to that point, even though he was more of a natural climber than Hincapie.

Might be thinking of the wrong guy actually - who was that big Spanish domestique who rode for Banesto for so many years, including the Indurain years? Retired just a few years ago, iirc, but his name escapes me at the moment.

 

[roundabout]

He was the first man up the Tourmalet once. From a breakaway. Highlight of his career up to that point, even though he was more of a natural climber than Hincapie.

I think it was the Galibier in 99?

or was he first over the Tourmalet as well?

 

[roundabout]

Might be thinking of the wrong guy actually - who was that big Spanish domestique who rode for Banesto for so many years, including the Indurain years? Retired just a few years ago, iirc, but his name escapes me at the moment.

Jose Vicente Garcia Acosta?

But he's still riding.

Edit: Arrieta fits the description better. He retired last year.

 

[pmcg76]

Was it Arrieta or Alonso who was on all 5 Banesto teams during the Indurain streak.