The Better Irish Cousin

[El Pistolero]

You didn't watch the first couple of MTF's in the TDF? At times they had by far the greatest amount of cyclists in the lead group. I mean when Roche was dropped on Luz'Ardiden he had 2 teammates pacing him whilst Peraud was still in the lead group of about 10...Peraud who also finished in the top 10 of the TDF.

Just because you place in the top 10 of something doesn't mean you weren't invisible.

I watched AGR yet I wouldn't be able to tell you who got third in it for example. Why? Because he didn't do nothing.

I don't have any recollection of AG2R this season except the Giro. Pathetic team. Way too many French teams out there... Of course I watched the first couple of boring MTF, but I was too busy watching what happened at the front of the race with Samuel Sanchez, Philbert and Vanendert.

 

[craig1985]

Am I the only who finds it funny that the two leading Irish cyclists weren't born in Ireland or even raised there?

 

[The Hitch]

I don't have any recollection of AG2R this season except the Giro. Pathetic team. Way too many French teams out there... Of course I watched the first couple of boring MTF, but I was too busy watching what happened at the front of the race with Samuel Sanchez, Philbert and Vanendert.

If you are going to count the 5km Gilbert was at the front an hour from the finish on stage 12, you should also therefore count the 200km AG2R rider Ben Kadri was at the front on stage 4.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Am I the only who finds it funny that the two leading Irish cyclists weren't born in Ireland or even raised there?

Three if you include Brammeier.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Am I the only who finds it funny that the two leading Irish cyclists weren't born in Ireland or even raised there?

It's hardly that surprising when you remember that the diaspora of Irish emigrants and their descendants numbers tens if not hundreds of millions, while the population of Ireland is 5 million. The kids of emigrants play for Ireland in a whole bunch of sports. Most of our football team in the 80s used to sound like they were from Bolton. It's a predictable consequence of having people as your primary export for 170 years.

Of the four high level pros who ride with an Irish license, three were born outside Ireland. I think that Roche went to school in Ireland however. He's also the only one for whom declaring for Ireland was arguably damaging to his career rather than clearly an advantage as it has been for Martin (who was seriously disgruntled with the British set up) and Brammeier (who apparently declared so as to help out mates on the Irish track team and then managed to turn it into a stepping stone to a pro career).

 

[El Pistolero]

Am I the only who finds it funny that the two leading Irish cyclists weren't born in Ireland or even raised there?

It's not different with England

Froome: born and raised in Kenya
Wiggins: born in Belgium

 

[King Of The Wolds]

It's not different with England

Froome: born and raised in Kenya
Wiggins: born in Belgium

Well that is different from the Irish situation then, isn't it? Or are you just ignoring the fact that Wiggins, admittedly the greatest Belgian born GC rider in years, was raised in London?

 

[hrotha]

It's not different with England

Froome: born and raised in Kenya
Wiggins: born in Belgium

Wiggins was born in Belgium by mere accident. His father worked there. He was born to English parents and raised in England. It's not comparable by any stretch of the imagination. I don't understand why this keeps popping up.

the diaspora of Irish emigrants and their descendants numbers tens if not hundreds of millions

Are you counting every questionably "Irish"-American plastic Paddy who celebrates St Patrick's?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Wiggins was born in Belgium by mere accident. His father worked there. He was born to English parents and raised in England. It's not comparable by any stretch of the imagination. I don't understand why this keeps popping up.

It's pretty comparable to Roche who has an Irish father and spent much of his childhood in Ireland. It's not really comparable to Martin, who has an Irish mother but was raised in England. Or to Brammeier who only has Irish grandparents.

Are you counting every questionably "Irish"-American plastic Paddy who celebrates St Patrick's?

I gave a wide range of numbers, precisely because the degree to which people can really be said to be "Irish" after five generations of living somewhere else is to put it mildly open to interpretation.

In practical terms, the Irish diaspora which actually provides athletes to Irish sporting teams consists of the kids and grandkids of Irish born people rather than the much broader number of people whose ancestors emigrated in the 19th Century. We have yet to have a rider declare for Ireland because he once got drunk in Boston.

 

[El Pistolero]

If you are going to count the 5km Gilbert was at the front an hour from the finish on stage 12, you should also therefore count the 200km AG2R rider Ben Kadri was at the front on stage 4.

Why would I ever waste my time watching anything but the final 10km of stage 4?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Or to Brammeier who only has Irish grandparents.

Sorry for responding to myself, but I just wanted to clarify that I don't have a problem with Brammeier declaring for Ireland or with him winning the Irish nationals two years in a row. Quite apart from the fact that he's of Irish ancestry, he has a pretty inspiring backstory and seems to be a genuinely nice bloke. If doing his friends a favour turned out to be doing himself a favour too, I'm certainly not going to begrudge him it.

 

[El Pistolero]

Sorry for responding to myself, but I just wanted to clarify that I don't have a problem with Brammeier declaring for Ireland or with him winning the Irish nationals two years in a row. Quite apart from the fact that he's of Irish ancestry, he has a pretty inspiring backstory and seems to be a genuinely nice bloke. If doing his friends a favour turned out to be doing himself a favour too, I'm certainly not going to begrudge him it.

Doesn't Daniel Martin have Irish ancestry as well? He's a nephew of Stephen Roche, right?

Personally, I don't care where someone is born or raised. I don't see Froome as a Kenyan for example. If Cancellara decided to be an Italian tomorrow then I would accept him as one.

I actually thought Brammeier was from the Island of Man, like Cavendish

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Doesn't Daniel Martin have Irish ancestry as well? He's a nephew of Stephen Roche, right?

Yes, his mother is Irish and is Stephen Roche's sister. His father is Neil Martin, who was himself a pro.

Personally, I don't care where someone is born or raised. I don't see Froome as a Kenyan for example. If Cancellara decided to be an Italian tomorrow then I would accept him as one.

I broadly agree with you.

I actually thought Brammeier was from the Island of Man, like Cavendish

Brammeier is from Liverpool, a city which has had very substantial immigration from Ireland. His friendship with Cavendish stems from Cavendish staying with Brammeier's family when he was a kid heading over to Britain to race. Given the population of the Isle of Man, you'd have to assume that Cavendish didn't have much local age group competition! Bellis and Kennaugh would have been too young.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Yes, his mother is Irish and is Stephen Roche's sister. His father is Neil Martin, who was himself a pro.

I broadly agree with you.

Brammeier is from Liverpool, a city which has had very substantial immigration from Ireland. His friendship with Cavendish stems from Cavendish staying with Brammeier's family when he was a kid heading over to Britain to race. Given the population of the Isle of Man, you'd have to assume that Cavendish didn't have much local age group competition!

Well there's Kennaugh and Bellis, who aren't too much younger than him. Pretty incredible, considering the size of the island. Saying that, Cav doesn't really have any competition anywhere, full stop.

As an aside, the Manx accent is very, very similar to the Scouse accent, at least what it used to sound like anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

Why would I ever waste my time watching anything but the final 10km of stage 4?

You include the 5 seconds which Gilbert was at the front on a descent before the actual MTF, so I would assume you would care for the several hours Kadri was at the front before the stage 4 htf.

 

[El Pistolero]

You include the 5 seconds which Gilbert was at the front on a descent before the actual MTF, so I would assume you would care for the several hours Kadri was at the front before the stage 4 htf.

I know Gilbert is a great descender, but not even he can do a descend and part of the climb in 5 seconds

Gilbert was on the front on the entire descend followed by Jelle Vanendert and Samuel Sanchez a minute or so behind him. My original post was pretty clear I think. I don't care what happens before the finale in the Tour, as not much happens usually. Most people, like me, only watch the final of Tour stages unless the stage profile or race situation suggests that the action will start early. Clearly not the case in stage 4 as it was practically a boring flat stage with an uphill finish. The racing on such courses only starts in the last 5 to 10 km which is when most people start to tune in to watch. Quality over quantity in this case. Besides if I have to remember every breakaway on every single stage

Even the worst cyclists can ride for 4 hours at the front of a Tour stage if they're in a breakaway. Breakaway has practically 0% chance of ever making it to the finish before the peloton on stages like that, so I don't care at all. A breakaway almost never gets me excited. I find it a buzz kill if the breakaway gets a stage gifted to them... Bah.

 

[Tank Engine]

Most people, like me, only watch the final of Tour stages unless the stage profile or race situation suggests that the action will start early. Clearly not the case in stage 4 as it was practically a boring flat stage with an uphill finish. The racing on such courses only starts in the last 5 to 10 km which is when most people start to tune in to watch. Quality over quantity in this case. Besides if I have to remember every breakaway on every single stage

Even the worst cyclists can ride for 4 hours at the front of a Tour stage if they're in a breakaway. Breakaway has practically 0% chance of ever making it to the finish before the peloton on stages like that, so I don't care at all. A breakaway almost never gets me excited. I find it a buzz kill if the breakaway gets a stage gifted to them... Bah.

Not surprising that they were invisible, seeing that you were either not watching or forgetting what happened.

Riding in the breakaway is not the problem, getting there in the first place is. Hence, it's often the solid rather than "bad" (or great) riders who get into the break.

I must admit though that I can only bear watching the whole of selective stages (at least you're guaranteed decent scenery).

 

[The Hitch]

I know Gilbert is a great descender, but not even he can do a descend and part of the climb in 5 seconds

Gilbert was on the front on the entire descend followed by Jelle Vanendert and Samuel Sanchez a minute or so behind him. My original post was pretty clear I think. I don't care what happens before the finale in the Tour, as not much happens usually. Most people, like me, only watch the final of Tour stages unless the stage profile or race situation suggests that the action will start early. Clearly not the case in stage 4 as it was practically a boring flat stage with an uphill finish. The racing on such courses only starts in the last 5 to 10 km which is when most people start to tune in to watch. Quality over quantity in this case. Besides if I have to remember every breakaway on every single stage

Even the worst cyclists can ride for 4 hours at the front of a Tour stage if they're in a breakaway. Breakaway has practically 0% chance of ever making it to the finish before the peloton on stages like that, so I don't care at all. A breakaway almost never gets me excited. I find it a buzz kill if the breakaway gets a stage gifted to them... Bah.

Ok then.

Christophe Riblon was one of the 4 guys in the Contador Schleck group up the Galibier.

More importantly Nicky Roche was the last person to be dropped by Andy Schleck on the Galibier the day earlier. It was the finale so surely you were watching that.

Did you notice those or would you only have payed attention if it was Phil?

 

[El Pistolero]

Ok then.

Christophe Riblon was one of the 4 guys in the Contador Schleck group up the Galibier.

More importantly Nicky Roche was the last person to be dropped by Andy Schleck on the Galibier the day earlier. It was the finale so surely you were watching that.

Did you notice those or would you only have payed attention if it was Phil?

All I noticed was how overrated Nicolas Roche is. These things you mention everyone forgets because it was all from a breakaway. These guys aren't worth being in the World Tour and should stop wasting team spots. No one pays attention to these guys if they're in a group with Contador or Andy Schleck and after a few weeks everyone will have forgotten what they did and only remember Andy's effort.

AG2r was the most invisible WT team for me this season. Obviously they were there, but they never played a big role in any WT race except in the Giro with Gadret and that other French guy.

Weren't you the guy complaing about airstream dismissing your arguments with calling you a fanboy? You practically always use Phil in an argument against me, even when I don't mention him.

It's really simple: in the stage you mentioned, Gilbert played a key role as he paved the way for Vanendert and Samuel Sanchez to escape from the peloton. When did AG2R ever play a key role in a WT race that isn't the Giro(this year)?

 

[ferryman]

Wiggins was born in Belgium by mere accident. His father worked there. He was born to English parents and raised in England. It's not comparable by any stretch of the imagination. I don't understand why this keeps popping up.

His father was most certainly not English. I don't understand why you would claim he was. So it is actually very comparable.

 

[El Pistolero]

Not surprising that they were invisible, seeing that you were either not watching or forgetting what happened.

Riding in the breakaway is not the problem, getting there in the first place is. Hence, it's often the solid rather than "bad" (or great) riders who get into the break.

I must admit though that I can only bear watching the whole of selective stages (at least you're guaranteed decent scenery).

I watch most of the one day races from start to finish though

But no one remembers all these breakaways unless they played a key role in the race FDJ was active a lot in breakaways, so they're still better than AG2R.

 

[cocteau_ireland]

There's only one thing in life worse than being talked about, (and we know what that is). Thankfully for Ag2r, there is one man who simply won't let that happen; isnt that right pisto? Your concern and interest are duly noted.

 

[Tank Engine]

I watch most of the one day races from start to finish though

But no one remembers all these breakaways unless they played a key role in the race FDJ was active a lot in breakaways, so they're still better than AG2R.

I watch one day races too, I was talking in the context of stage races.

Unless it's a howling gale outside (and this is the West of Ireland), in the spring and the summer I'd rather be out on my bike and get back for the last hour or so.

Just having a bit of banter, as they call it

 

[hrotha]

Wiggins was born in Belgium by mere accident. His father worked there. He was born to English parents and raised in England. It's not comparable by any stretch of the imagination. I don't understand why this keeps popping up.

His father was most certainly not English. I don't understand why you would claim he was. So it is actually very comparable.

Because Wikipedia showed me an English name, and I made reasonable assumptions.

 

[craig1985]

Wiggins father was actually Australian and was a track cyclist racing the 6-day events on the Continent.