The Campagnolo 11S Compatibility Lie

[Frederico]

Hi folks!

Out of my own experience, I would like to let you know that it is not true what Campagnolo is writing in their tehnical specifications about the compatibility of the 11S sprocket with 10S hubs.

I bough the complete 2009 Record 11S groupset to upgrade my De Rosa (befor was Record 2001). Unfortunately I had to find out, that when you try to mount the 11S sprocket on a Campagnolo Electron 2001 wheel it does't work. You will get an 11 speed fixie.

So I called next day Campa Germany to ask for tehnical advice. Of course their first standard reaction was: "we never heard this before, you are the first ever with this problem". They promised to check it by their own with an Electron wheel and 11S sprockets. In the next phone call they confirmed that it doesn't match. Later on they told me, that Campa Italy checked the 11S compatibility with hubs and wheels till production 2002.

Well Campa, what now? My Electrons are from 2001, they are in perfect shape and I love them. If I had known that I will need a new wheelset for upgrading on 11S, than I would have renounced on it.

Finaly they simply told me, that Campa has no fault in this case and they are not willing at all to find a solution for me/us. They also said, that Campa never claimed that all 10S hubs and wheels are 11S compatibel. Hmm ... dear Campa guys and what about page 46 in your PDF-file "2009 OEM-manual" (see picture). Do I see there a limitation in production year or an exclusion of certain Wheel models?

You can imagine, that I am so disapointed about this, that after 30 years of Campa Record I think it is now time to say:

"bye, bye, Campa"

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

You might reconsider, since replacing a rear hub is considerably less than replacing an entire grouppo + wheels. Every manufacturer makes dubious claims of compatibility with old parts that ultimately don't work as they state. Nothing new here.

The most logical thing you could have done before you spent the money would've been to bring your rear wheel to a shop, and tested it out on a 11s bike to make for certain it was compatible. In my experience, I do not trust anything any bike part manufacturer claims when it comes to compatibility of mixing old parts with new, and have to see it for myself to be convinced.

 

[Pietro]

Hi folks!

Out of my own experience, I would like to let you know that it is not true what Campagnolo is writing in their tehnical specifications about the compatibility of the 11S sprocket with 10S hubs.

I bough the complete 2009 Record 11S groupset to upgrade my De Rosa (befor was Record 2001). Unfortunately I had to find out, that when you try to mount the 11S sprocket on a Campagnolo Electron 2001 wheel it does't work. You will get an 11 speed fixie.

So I called next day Campa Germany to ask for tehnical advice. Of course their first standard reaction was: "we never heard this before, you are the first ever with this problem". They promised to check it by their own with an Electron wheel and 11S sprockets. In the next phone call they confirmed that it doesn't match. Later on they told me, that Campa Italy checked the 11S compatibility with hubs and wheels till production 2002.

Well Campa, what now? My Electrons are from 2001, they are in perfect shape and I love them. If I had known that I will need a new wheelset for upgrading on 11S, than I would have renounced on it.

Finaly they simply told me, that Campa has no fault in this case and they are not willing at all to find a solution for me/us. They also said, that Campa never claimed that all 10S hubs and wheels are 11S compatibel. Hmm ... dear Campa guys and what about page 46 in your PDF-file "2009 OEM-manual" (see picture). Do I see there a limitation in production year or an exclusion of certain Wheel models?

You can imagine, that I am so disapointed about this, that after 30 years of Campa Record I think it is now time to say:

"bye, bye, Campa"

Try a 1mm spacer on first and see if it keeps the 'dish' of the biggest cog away from the hub. Sorry your almost 9 yr old wheels cannot accept a 11s cog. Those HPW freehubs sit very close to the hub body. I'm betting 2001 isn't the only one effected. Kinda like 7800 and 6600 shimano wheels and shimano 9s cogsets. Have a wheelbuilder use a 2009 rear hub and build a wheel..not the end of the world. Too bad you would abandon great ergonomics and improved lever guts for a decade old wheel.

 

[Bigborb]

Go for the wheels

I'm with Pietro on this one - ditch the wheels and move up to one of Campy's current offerings which will far surpass those old hoops. In fact, I'd get the new wheels rather than the groupset, if there's a choice, as they will transform your ride dramatically. Aside from my Lightweights, Campy Boras are the best wheels I've ever ridden. If you want to stick to alloy clinchers, then the new Shamals are fantastic - light, smooth, aero spokes. I have to say that the old Shamals were amazing wheels too, but a bit on the heavy side..

I know you're ****ed that a company with Campy's cred and quality seemed to abandon you, but honestly, I'd get over it and go shopping.. I love spending other peoples' money!!

Good luck.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'm with Pietro on this one - ditch the wheels and move up to one of Campy's current offerings which will far surpass those old hoops.

Nobody suggested that, we both said replace the hub. Why would you want someone to spend $1200 for a new wheel set, when he could have the wheel rebuilt with a current hub for $200-$300. Besides, he said "they are in perfect shape and I love them" about his Electrons. Try the spacers first, they might work but I have my doubts. 1mm might get the cog away from the spokes, but the trick is to make room for the chain too when on the biggest cog. Anything more than 2 or 3mm of spacers would throw the shifting actuation completely out of wack, with little room for trim adjustment.

 

[Frederico]

First of all, thanks for your suggestions and help! Your reaction on my posting was completely different than on a german forum. There people where almost blaming me for still riding on 8 years old wheels ...

I think I will first give it a try with an 1 mm spacer. If it shouldn't work than I have to think about new wheels. Campa Nucleon would be my choice. I hope they will be as reliable as my old Electrons. I have these on both bikes. On my winter bike an 20 years old OLMO steel frame (Columbus MAX) I even ride on Electrons which are older than 2001.

What do you thing about current Neutrons? I know they are not Bora, but they cost less and I already spent a lot of money for the 11S groupset.

Greetings from Frankfurt!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

What do you thing about current Neutrons?

Neutrons are a great value for a Campy wheel!! Most all of the Campy wheels are fantastic, except the models with those stupid aluminum spokes, like Shamal and Eurus.

 

[Frederico]

models with those stupid aluminum spokes, like Shamal and Eurus.

Nice to hear that! I also don't like the aluminium spokes.

 

[Pietro]

Nobody suggested that, we both said replace the hub. Why would you want someone to spend $1200 for a new wheel set, when he could have the wheel rebuilt with a current hub for $200-$300. Besides, he said "they are in perfect shape and I love them" about his Electrons. Try the spacers first, they might work but I have my doubts. 1mm might get the cog away from the spokes, but the trick is to make room for the chain too when on the biggest cog. Anything more than 2 or 3mm of spacers would throw the shifting actuation completely out of wack, with little room for trim adjustment.

'Maybe' replace the hub. I think they were 24h. I suppose you could fine a 24h and get spokes, etc, but it would be easier to just build a new rear wheel.

 

[Bigborb]

Given that you have some problem with the alloy spokes (is this based on experience or theory?), you can get the pre-2006 Eurus for around $400 on eBay, with patience. I have a set of these too and they work beautifully. Not the lightest, but then neither were your Electrons. I prefer these older Eurus' simply because the front rim is deeper (thus more aero), at a teensy weight penalty, and they have the narrower steel spokes, but still the G3 lacing in the rear. Much more important than weight is how the wheels work in power transfer and lateral stability, IMO. Or maybe you can find just a rear..

Let us know how you solve this..

Good luck.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Given that you have some problem with the alloy spokes (is this based on experience or theory?)

This was probably directed at Frederico, but I'll give you my two cents.

Both. I'm a wheel builder by profession, and while I admit they do spin up to speed really nicely, those wheels IMHO are crap, and ride like sh*t if you use them for everyday use. Especially if you're averaging around 300 miles/per week on them. I had a loaner set of Fulcrummy Racing Zeros a couple years ago, which is basically the same wheel as the Campy Shamal. And while I admit they are a great race day wheel, they're absolutely way too harsh for anything more than a 40 mile ride, and totally suck on gravel roads. And last point being that aluminum inherently has a short overall life, whoever came up with using aluminum spokes on bike wheels should be tarred and feathered. It's no surprise that the favorite spoke of the pros has made it on to just about every production wheel out there...The Sapim CX-Ray. Steel baby! Granted they are used more on deep carbon rims, I laced up some Ambrosio Excellence rims with CX-rays for training wheels, and they're simply awesome.

 

[Pietro]

This was probably directed at Frederico, but I'll give you my two cents.

Both. I'm a wheel builder by profession, and while I admit they do spin up to speed really nicely, those wheels IMHO are crap, and ride like sh*t if you use them for everyday use. Especially if you're averaging around 300 miles/per week on them. I had a loaner set of Fulcrummy Racing Zeros a couple years ago, which is basically the same wheel as the Campy Shamal. And while I admit they are a great race day wheel, they're absolutely way too harsh for anything more than a 40 mile ride, and totally suck on gravel roads. And last point being that aluminum inherently has a short overall life, whoever came up with using aluminum spokes on bike wheels should be tarred and feathered. It's no surprise that the favorite spoke of the pros has made it on to just about every production wheel out there...The Sapim CX-Ray. Steel baby! Granted they are used more on deep carbon rims, I laced up some Ambrosio Excellence rims with CX-rays for training wheels, and they're simply awesome.

As you probably gathered, I have built a 'few' wheels also. CXray and DT aerolite/aerospeed are fine and dandy but expensive..$3 per+.

85 gram or so savings for 64 of either Race vs CX-Ray or Dt Comps vs DT Aerolite.

BUT you save $140 or so with just spokes. Revolutions(Sapim Laser) for the front, lighter but still save $125 or so.

Just my opinion. I don't think the 'advantage' of CX-rays are 'worth' the extra $(Euro/Lira/Pound/Peseta/Peso/Ruple/etc). But with one of the advantages of well designed and handbuilt wheels is cost. Adding CX-Ray(Aerolite) raises the $ to that of lots of wheelsouttaboxes.

Pretty sure the Ambrosio rimmed wheels for Roubaix had 14/15 spokes as well

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Agreed. those aero spokes are spendy. That's probably why you see them on all the top shelf carbon wheels. And in keeping the spokes in the aero theme of the respective wheels they're supplied with. I'm surprised it took so long for Sapim to finally get the street kred they deserve since they have been a favorite of the pros for years before the major wheel manufacturers finally caught on.

I will say this though, the Sapim Laser is a infinitely superior spoke to the wet noodle like DT Revolution.

Pretty sure the Ambrosio rimmed wheels for Roubaix had 14/15 spokes as well

Yep. Spapim Race. Tom Boonen even prefers 36 hole.

 

[Pietro]

Agreed. those aero spokes are spendy. That's probably why you see them on all the top shelf carbon wheels. And in keeping the spokes in the aero theme of the respective wheels they're supplied with. I'm surprised it took so long for Sapim to finally get the street kred they deserve since they have been a favorite of the pros for years before the major wheel manufacturers finally caught on.

I will say this though, the Sapim Laser is a infinitely superior spoke to the wet noodle like DT Revolution.



Yep. Spapim Race. Tom Boonen even prefers 36 hole.

Here in the US, Sapim is imported by only one place. Their supply is poor to non existent with only even sizes in most lengths. If available in all lengths, 14/15/Revtype/oval type, black and silver, I perhaps would use them but as I said, the distributor isn't all that keen on keeping the above. Besides, DT via Paceline does a great job along with DT rims and hubs.

Have built many wheels(fronts and few left side rears) with Revs and a fine spoke at 14/17/14. I doubt that the Laser is 'infinitely superior', considering they are the same dimension and probably same stainless steel wire type.

My fronts and 1 rear is Revs(left side rear)..36h laced to a variety of Mavic(MachIICd) and Campagnolo(Omega/Lamda/Record Crono). They work fine.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

You can use higher tension on the Lasers. IMHO, Revolutions are too stretchy.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

About 3 years ago, I did my own un-scientific test with the spokes we're talking about here. DT Revolution Vs. Sapim Laser.

I wanted to see which one would last in a max tension until failure shoot out, and here is what happened:

The Rev stretched out to the point where there was no possibility of returning to its original shape, then finally snapped. The Laser had minimal stretch and never broke. I tensioned it until it almost pulled through the eyelet, then the head of the nipple popped, but the spoke never broke. Now, if that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does. It's amazing how two seemingly identical products could have entirely different characteristics.

 

[Pietro]

You can use higher tension on the Lasers. IMHO, Revolutions are too stretchy.

IMHO, tension is tension. 100 kgf whether they be laser, race, comps, cx-ray, revs, whatever. I have seen many Wheelsmith fail like you mentioned but never Revs. Don't try to over tension them tho.

 

[frameforum]

5 years is the industry standard for compatibility checks and become the norm for the stockholding of spares....

 

[Jonathonc]

Just fitted Chorus 11 no problem. The cassette went on my reynolds attack rear no worries at all. Jon