The Chris Squared Thread

[Race Radio]

Lets agree the data is ambiguous at best, and lets assume for a second, they are equally big dopers.
that would be interesting considering how guys like walsh and vaughters had no problem calling out horner, but are all over the place defending froome.

why you think is that?

I can't speak for them.

Where did Walsh and JV call out Horner's performance? I talked to David for a long time Tuesday night and he made no claims about Horner's performance, only that he was disappointed that Chris supported Armstrong even after he was sanctioned by USADA.

 

[gooner]

As far as I know, JV only mentioned that Horner chased down riders at the Tour for speaking to USADA.

Walsh just said he didn't like what he was seeing during one of the stages the Vuelta.

 

[thehog]

in addtion to DW's post... where's airstream pointing out repeatedly that the tour is raced the hardest and this affects the numbers when the comment actually adds something.

IIRC vetooo posted the aggregated w/kg numbers of 2013 GT winners and TDF was 5,9 whereas the two others 5,8 or so. do correct me if I misremember, please.

if so I think it is plausible to assume that froome, quintana and probably Jrod too would have smoked the cowboy in the TDF climbs had he been there with the vuelta form

He did indeed.

Whereby Froome held 5.9 for a longer duration than Horner.

Nibili probably gets a pass for the truncated Giro.

@ammattipyoraily: Grand Tours 2013, Avg. durations & W/kg [DrF]
GIRO: Nibali 23 29, 5.82 W/kg
TOUR: Froome 31:24, 5.90 W/kg
VUELTA:: Horner 27:08, 5.90 W/kg

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Angliru 12.86 km, 44 min 41 sec. Thibaut Pinot's SRM: 384.4 W / 65 kg = 5.91 W/kg.

Are we really to believe Thibaut weighs 65 kilo?

Even on the FDJ homepage he is listed as 63.5 RR.

Maybe the old Hornet is at even below 60 kiloos...

 

[gooner]

snipped...

Hog, you mentioned Costa having faster times. I'm not implying what you are saying is false but the only one I can remember was his MTT win at Suisse and that was significantly slower.

Do you have any link for this?

 

[Parrulo]

Hog, you mentioned Costa having faster times. I'm not implying what you are saying is false but the only one I can remember was his MTT win at Suisse and that was significantly slower.

Do you have any link for this?

Flumserberg
2013:10,4 km@9,0%---33:02---average speed 18.89 km/h(Rui Costa)
---33:03---average speed 18.88 km/h(Arnold Jeannesson)
---33:08---average speed 18.83 km/h(Bauke Mollema)
---33:18---average speed 18.74 km/h(Michele Scarponi)
---33:23---average speed 18.69 km/h(Tanel Kangert)
2008:10,4 km@9,0%---31:56---average speed 19.54 km/h(Igor Anton)
1995: 8,4 km@9,2%---23:35---average speed 21.37 km/h(Marco Pantani)-finish line at 1225 m

Source: Jens_Attacks

So Costa was slower on a MTT than Anton was on a normal stage back in 08.

Now that i think about it, TheHog might be talking about Costa's Tour ascent times.

Col de la Croix Fry
2013:11,3 km@7,1%---29:56---average speed 22.65 km/h(Rui Costa)
---30:49---average speed 22.00 km/h(Quintana-Rodriguez-Contador-Froome-Valverde-Gadret)
2004:11,3 km@7,1%---30:18---average speed 22.38 km/h(Armstrong-Landis-Ullrich-Basso-Kloden)
---30:53---average speed 21.95 km/h(Carlos Sastre)
---31:10---average speed 21.75 km/h(Totschnig-Rasmussen-Merckx-Azevedo-Leipheimer)
---31:55---average speed 21.24 km/h(Vladimir Karpets)
---32:19---average speed 20.98 km/h(Juan Miguel Mercado)
---32:29---average speed 20.87 km/h(Mancebo-Guerini-Pereiro)
---32:32---average speed 20.84 km/h(Pietro Caucchioli)
---34:55---average speed 19.42 km/h(Thomas Voeckler)

And

Col de Manse
2013:9,5 km@5,2%---19:06---average speed 29.84 km/h(Porte-Froome-Contador-Kreuziger-Valverde-Quintana-Rodriguez-Mollema)
---19:16---average speed 29.58 km/h(Rui Costa)
2011:9,5 km@5,2%---20:04---average speed 28.41 km/h(Contador-Evans-S.Sanchez)
---20:25---average speed 27.92 km/h(F.Schleck-A.Schleck-Voeckler group)

His Croix Fry time certainly seems suspicious. I don't remember the conditions on the 04 stage, anyone with a better memory than me?

 

[sniper]

As far as I know, JV only mentioned that Horner chased down riders at the Tour for speaking to USADA.

iirc, he also twittered some double-bottom comment about horner probably not getting a contract for next year.

 

[gustienordic]

It is borderline. Pinot is certainly a very talented climber. He was very motivated to go full gas to maintain, or even improve, his GC postion. There was a tight group of 5-6 riders within 2 minutes on GC, he could not take it easy.

The only reason I think he may be clean is that FDJ is the second most likely clean team after Garmin. I think Pinot is natural.

 

[thehog]

His Croix Fry time certainly seems suspicious. I don't remember the conditions on the 04 stage, anyone with a better memory than me?

Now bear in mind my comment was in regards to the peleton as a “whole” not so much as fingering Costa as a doper. Climbing times are “up” – why?

My view that doping is back across the table. Some of this (and this is only my opinion) I attribute to Sky’s dominance in GTs. And its “game on” for lack of a better term.

Contador is one of the only one whom has faced a downward curve in performance but potentially that he was “over performing” in the good ole days.

Froome and Porte this year compounded my viewpoint on the doping state of the peloton. Along with Horner.

The UCI and others from the “clean faction” really don’t provide any numbers or statistics to suggest that cycling is better – once we told speeds and climbing times were down. And for a period of time this was certainly the case. But as soon as they were dropping they’ve come back again and now surpassing doping times of a previous era.

 

[D-Queued]

As far as I know, JV only mentioned that Horner chased down riders at the Tour for speaking to USADA.

Walsh just said he didn't like what he was seeing during one of the stages the Vuelta.

I missed that, or was this a sarcastic parallel to Simeoni?

I appreciate either, but is there a link?

Dave.

 

[gooner]

Nice one Parrulo. Outside of his time on Flumserberg, I wasn't sure of him times on the other climbs. I can see what the hog was referring to now.

 

[sniper]

The only reason I think he may be clean is that FDJ is the second most likely clean team after Garmin. I think Pinot is natural.

you have a link for that?
garmin looked clean-ish in 2013, but how likely is it to win an MTF in the TdF and LBL on pan i agua?
2009 wiggins and 2012 hesjedal clean, how likely is that?
it's warming to see you believe, but objectively, it's unlikely.

 

[gooner]

I missed that, or was this a sarcastic parallel to Simeoni?

I appreciate either, but is there a link?

Dave.

It was actually in reference to chasing down Hincapie.

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/374638675776126976

Interesting here.

Neal Rogers ‏@nealrogers 2 Sep
@Vaughters @richardmoore73 @Ben_M_Berry Care to share your thoughts on Horner's performances at Vuelta? Or why he's never been on Garmin?

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 2 Sep
@nealrogers @richardmoore73 @Ben_M_Berry Hahaha!!! No. One is speculation and the other is private information.

 

[thehog]

Nice one Parrulo. Outside of his time on Flumserberg, I wasn't sure of him times on the other climbs. I can see what the hog was referring to now.

I do. Which you now have.

http://climbing-records.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-vuelta-favourites-together-at-high.html


I was also looking at Col de Peyresourde. I’ve marked the dirty generation in red.

Things have not changed so much to be honest. Times have crept up again.

Horner is at least consistant to his preivous form.

Wiggins 2010 is interesting.

And context is very important. CdP was climbed as a mid stage mountain and as a MTF. Temper the conclusions drawn with this information.

But this is just one climb of many.


Col de Peyresourde

2003:9,8 km@7,7%---25:20---average speed 23.21 km/h(Vinokourov-Mayo)-RECORD

2003:9,8 km@7,7%---26:14---average speed 22.41 km/h(Ullrich-Armstrong-Zubeldia-Basso)

2010:9,8 km@7,7%---26:27---average speed 22.23 km/h(Szmyd-Charteau-Kreuziger-M.Lloyd-Capecchi-Hesjedal-Wiggins-Armstrong-Verdugo-Rui Costa-Horner-Casar-Vinokourov-Sastre)

2013:9,8 km@7,7%---26:43---average speed 22.01 km/h(Kiserlovski-Horner-Nibali-Pinot-Valverde-Rodriguez-Pozzovivo-Uran)

2012:9,8 km@7,7%---26:43---average speed 22.01 km/h(Pinot-Froome-Wiggins-Van Den Broeck-Rolland-Nibali-Van Garderen-Horner)

2007:9,8 km@7,7%---26:45---average speed 21.98 km/h(Contador-Rasmussen)

2001:9,8 km@7,7%---28:11---average speed 20.86 km/h(Kevin Livingston)
---28:15---average speed 20.81 km/h(Ullrich-Armstrong)

 

[sniper]

It was actually in reference to chasing down Hincapie.

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/374638675776126976

his other tweet on horner:

Jonathan VaughtersVerifizierter Account ‏@Vaughters
@akcook13 @Laura_Meseguer actually, I doubt there's much of a market for him. A bit like Cobo a few years back.

 

[thehog]

Are we really to believe Thibaut weighs 65 kilo?

Even on the FDJ homepage he is listed as 63.5 RR.

Maybe the old Hornet is at even below 60 kiloos...

And Froome is 71 – 69kg? At the Tour he was much lower. But I’d hate to guess.

Perhaps he carried two full water bottles the whole way up the climbs!

Which is what Horner suggested!

 

[thrawn]

I may have missed this somewhere in the thread or maybe I'm missing some piece of information, but can someone explain how having the srm data for other riders could lead you to revise Horner's weight?

 

[The Hitch]

you have a link for that?
garmin looked clean-ish in 2013, but how likely is it to win an MTF in the TdF and LBL on pan i agua?

When did Garmin win an MTF in the TDF?

2009 wiggins and 2012 hesjedal clean, how likely is that?
it's warming to see you believe, but objectively, it's unlikely.

-deleted by mod as insulting other posters and opinion.

 

[thehog]

I may have missed this somewhere in the thread or maybe I'm missing some piece of information, but can someone explain how having the srm data for other riders could lead you to revise Horner's weight?

That’s the question everyone has been asking. Till this point we have no idea how you can drawn down Horner’s weight and no one elses. Especially Froome. It’s the unexplained.

 

[sniper]

When did Garmin win an MTF in the TDF?

true, no mtf.
anyway, impressive ride by martin.
beating astana's fuglsang in the sprint on bread and water after 4 1st cat climbs?
surely not impossible, but how is that in any way "likely"?

and the same is true for hesjedal 2012.
but we don't know how a guy like horner gears up either.
so why differentiate here between radioshack and garmin?

 

[D-Queued]

It was actually in reference to chasing down Hincapie.

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/374638675776126976

Interesting here.

Sounds like it was a Garmin guy (non-Horner) that chased down Hincapie, to which JV responded:

Neal Rogers ‏@nealrogers 2 Sep
@richardmoore73 @Vaughters @Ben_M_Berry Trying to find the Horner quote on that. Basically said he thought George was attacking, was marking

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 2 Sep
@CafeRoubaix @nealrogers @richardmoore73 @Ben_M_Berry That was just htc vs Garmin rivalry gone out of control. I'll own it.

I was hoping for more, but it doesn't appear to be there.

Dave.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Sounds like it was a Garmin guy (non-Horner) that chased down Hincapie, to which JV responded:



I was hoping for more, but it doesn't appear to be there.

Dave.

I think you're confusing two different "chases" of Hincapie. The Garmin "chase" was them pulling in 2009 to try to keep George from taking the yellow jersey. George (and his brother Rich, by the way) were not happy about that at all. Lance's team, Astana, did some pulling, but so did Garmin. Afterwards on TV interviews, George was not happy, said something about "why was Astana pulling?" Then when Lance was interviewed, he was quick to place the blame on Garmin for George not getting yellow. So that's the Garmin "chase" of George -> 2009 TdF.

The other "chase" being referred to is from 2012 TdF Paris stage. Since George was retiring with the TdF participation record, his good friend Cav arranged with Sky to let George lead onto the Champs Elysees instead of Sky/Wiggo taking that honor. Horner chased him down, and JV's original tweet seems to be referring to that being possible payback for Hincapie talking to USADA. That's the Horner "chase" of George -> 2012 TdF

 

[Zam_Olyas]

When did Garmin win an MTF in the TDF?


.

Sniper makes alot of mistakes like the bolded.

 

[D-Queued]

I think you're confusing two different "chases" of Hincapie. The Garmin "chase" was them pulling in 2009 to try to keep George from taking the yellow jersey. George (and his brother Rich, by the way) were not happy about that at all. Lance's team, Astana, did some pulling, but so did Garmin. Afterwards on TV interviews, George was not happy, said something about "why was Astana pulling?" Then when Lance was interviewed, he was quick to place the blame on Garmin for George not getting yellow. So that's the Garmin "chase" of George -> 2009 TdF.

The other "chase" being referred to is from 2012 TdF Paris stage. Since George was retiring with the TdF participation record, his good friend Cav arranged with Sky to let George lead onto the Champs Elysees instead of Sky/Wiggo taking that honor. Horner chased him down, and JV's original tweet seems to be referring to that being possible payback for Hincapie talking to USADA. That's the Horner "chase" of George -> 2012 TdF

Thanks!

Dave.

 

[the sceptic]

true, no mtf.
anyway, impressive ride by martin.
beating astana's fuglsang in the sprint on bread and water after 4 1st cat climbs?
surely not impossible, but how is that in any way "likely"?

and the same is true for hesjedal 2012.
but we don't know how a guy like horner gears up either.
so why differentiate here between radioshack and garmin?

This happened once. If he started riding every race like that it would be really suspicious but why not give him the benefit of the doubt for now? Didnt you see how useless he/Garmin were in the grand tours this year?

And I dont think Hesjedal climbed as fast as Froome or Horner when he won his giro (not that that means he was clean, but at least he was less suspicious imo)