The Chris Squared Thread

[Rollthedice]

I believe Horner won the vuelta because neither Piti, Purito nor Nibali thought he could sustain the effort during 3 weeks. Each of the other contenders had at least one bad day except Horner. All this at 42. We all know he's a good climber and not an overnight sensation but for me the most suspicious thing is this sustained effort during the whole tour.

 

[thehog]

Pretending that "happy with the top 10" Horner at TA is the same rider we saw at the Vuelta is a funny concept

Not funny at all. And no one is pretending anything.

As Froome at the Tour wasn't the same rider he was at TA. He was much much stronger. Super strong at the Tour.

It goes both ways.

But in March they were on par.

Froome won.

 

[Race Radio]

As Froome at the Tour wasn't the same rider he was at TA. He was much much stronger. Super strong at the Tour.

Dude, you need to get your stories straight.

Crying how Froome kept his same level all season is proof that he was doping and now you are saying he was up and down? Which is it? According to Grappe his power files show little change. None of calculations support your claim either

Froome, 5.93 W/Kg on Prati di Tivo
Froome 5.88 W/kg Mont Ventoux (Last 15km)

Big improvement

Horner did show a big leap in performance from TA. No surprise as he was not on top form and dealing with some physical issues that ultimately derailed his season

 

[thehog]

Dude, you need to get your stories straight.

Crying how Froome kept his same level all season is proof that he was doping and now you are saying he was up and down? Which is it? According to Grappe his power files show little change. None of calculations support your claim either

Froome, 5.93 W/Kg on Prati di Tivo
Froome 5.88 W/kg Mont Ventoux (Last 15km)

Big improvement

Horner did show a big leap in performance from TA. No surprise as he was not on top form and dealing with some physical issues that ultimately derailed his season

I'm not a dude nor am I crying.

Horner's w/kg from the Vuelta has been released.

You've dialled down his weight to increase his value.

You've not changed Froome's weight.

You keep saying "real weight" but you don't actually really know his real weight.

We can only go on what has been released for both Horner & Froome.

That would be proper statistical analysis.

Horner was 14 seconds down at TA from Froome. Horner's time on Prati was better than his 2012 time. He was on good form. It was his first race and prepared to test himself. He bettered his 2012 time. Froome was a full minute ahead of Horner's 2012 time.

A full minute.

Those are the facts.

You have no evidence to the contrary on Horner's knee. He said he did it on the second to last day and not on Prati.

His time on Prati is indicative of this as he beat his former best time from the previous year.

You can frig Horner's weight but a good analysis can only go on what's published.

It's really cant be much more simpler than that.

Sorry.

Re: Froome Tour. I think it speaks for itself. One can put the power meter away and just let ones jaw drop. Not much more to say on that.

 

[thehog]

I don't think bold part has anything to it. I've been doing Crossfit for months and my weight is doing down while my strength is going up. Its not a sudden change, but my overall progress as an athlete is slowly going that way. It's really a combination of different things, such as Crossfit training and Paleo-inspired dieting.

What was your starting weight?

Not being disrespectful but were you an average sports person to begins with?

ie if you were doing sport 2 times a week just for fun and weighed 95kgs then hit cross training hard with a good diet. Well yeah, you'll drop weight and get stronger.

Froome/Wiggins/Horner dropping 10kg for their already emaciated bodies and gaining flatline power then it's a worry.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Horner won the vuelta because neither Piti, Purito nor Nibali thought he could sustain the effort during 3 weeks....

Wow. I don't know how you can do it. I'm pretty much maxed out reading the minds of just two people at a time.

 

[proffate]

Froome 5.88 W/kg Mont Ventoux (Last 15km)

Please stop repeating this falsehood.

 

[thehog]

Please stop repeating this falsehood.

Oh the irony.

Once we were told not to use Ventoux as a datapoint for Froome due to the 80% tailwind.

Apparently now it's acceptable.

And the Dawg's Ventoux effort was just the same as his his run of the mill Prati di Tivo performance in March

Riiiiight.

 

[Ferminal]

Tailwind = Ferrari

 

[D-Queued]

Tailwind = Ferrari

Tailwind = Fuentes.

Tailwind, premium gas, downhill = Ferrari.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

sheer poetry

Yes gear selection is sheer poetry.

Not to belabor the point but Wiggins and Froome messed up their gears in 2011. They went standard gearing. Which is understandable as they’ve never climbed in Spain (bar those in and around Girona) before.

But Angliru is not really a normal climb. Its steep. Super steep towards the end.

The difference between Horner v Froome/Wiggins in gearing is clear. Froome and Wiggins even admitted they messed it up.

Froome’s ride is still impressive. He’d never ridden like that before and lead Wiggins the entire way up the climb with the wrong gearing. Not bad for a guy he’d never won a race before.

Cobo and Horner got it right and their stage times show as much.

Cobo rode solo the whole way. Horner followed Nibs up the climb till the end.

38 x 32 is not going to get you up 23% no matter how strong you are. Froome was clearly struggling when it ramped up but was much better and dropped Wiggins once the incline went down to 18%

Horner: 43:07
Cobo: 43:57

2013: Chris Horner 34×32

2011: Cobo 34×32, Froome & Wiggins 38×32

Compact cranksets are the way to go these days. Riders used to think it was cheating using one! Contador fairly much uses a compact now for all mountain stages. The biggest problem was chain drops on a compact from the big to small rings. But these days it’s much better.

I turn my nose up at a triple but have to admit I keep my compact on year round these days.

btw Angliru is super steep climb. Like nothing in the Tour.

From 2009:

David Millar crashed three times and protested by handing in his race number a metre from the line. The judges ruled he had not finished the stage and he left the race. He regretted his temper - he had been ninth - and apologised to his team.

 

[the sceptic]

Oh the irony.

Once we were told not to use Ventoux as a datapoint for Froome due to the 80% tailwind.

Apparently now it's acceptable.

And the Dawg's Ventoux effort was just the same as his his run of the mill Prati di Tivo performance in March

Riiiiight.

Mt Tailwind is only a reliable datapoint when Race Radio is the one making the argument.

But of course we know where this is going. Dawg was pushed up Ventoux with a vortex esque wind and still didnt break 6.0w/kg, thus it proves Horner is better.

By the way, how many minutes would insectman beat Horner with in a long ITT? 4? 5?

 

[Race Radio]

Mt Tailwind is only a reliable datapoint when Race Radio is the one making the argument.

But of course we know where this is going. Dawg was pushed up Ventoux with a vortex esque wind and still didnt break 6.0w/kg, thus it proves Horner is better.

By the way, how many minutes would insectman beat Horner with in a long ITT? 4? 5?

I was asked by another poster to compare the numbers from a couple climbs, which I did. I did not make any claims about the variables on either on either climb. You are welcome to present some contrary calculations

if you read the thread you will see that I came to my conclusion on Horner's actual weight by comparing his times, SRM and weight with other riders. I did not arbitrarily shave Kg off. If you disagree with conclusion please tell us how much you think Horner weighs and how you came to that conclusion

 

[thehog]

Mt Tailwind is only a reliable datapoint when Race Radio is the one making the argument.

But of course we know where this is going. Dawg was pushed up Ventoux with a vortex esque wind and still didnt break 6.0w/kg, thus it proves Horner is better.

By the way, how many minutes would insectman beat Horner with in a long ITT? 4? 5?

I find the whole thing odd

“Has Froome ever climbed 6.2 for 40 minutes”.

Well no. And neither has Horner.

You could equally say:

“Has Horner ridden ever 220km then rode up Ventoux at record speed dropping a 4 time GT winner-doper with an in saddle attack?” -

The answer is no he hasn’t.

Horner on the Angliru stage rode 100km before the climb. Froome rode 220km before Ventoux!

And Horner can’t even get close to froome in the ITT.

Froome is on another planet.

The logic being used is just really odd.

Froome weight is in question but to leave it as stated and drop Horner’s makes no sense.

Froome clearly has dropped weight from early in the year to when he showed up at the Tour.

Horners weight is as published. And if its not then no one here really knows what it is. Just like Froome - its just guessing.

I’m trying to be nice but it’s just making things up to fit an argument.

 

[the sceptic]

I was asked by another poster to compare the numbers from a couple climbs, which I did. I did not make any claims about the variables on either on either climb. You are welcome to present some contrary calculations

if you read the thread you will see that I came to my conclusion on Horner's actual weight by comparing his times, SRM and weight with other riders. I did not arbitrarily shave Kg off. If you disagree with conclusion please tell us how much you think Horner weighs and how you came to that conclusion

Vetoo had his w/kg at less than 6.0w/kg didnt he? Seems like this weight thing is just a guessing game, how do you know Froome isnt lying about his weight too?

I really dont get how Angliru was supposed to be the most dominant performance of the year.

Nibali and Valverde were only 28 seconds behind. Is that the same Valverde that lost over 1 minute to dawg on Ax3 domains?

 

[Race Radio]

Vetoo had his w/kg at less than 6.0w/kg didnt he? Seems like this weight thing is just a guessing game, how do you know Froome isnt lying about his weight too?

I really dont get how Angliru was supposed to be the most dominant performance of the year.

Nibali and Valverde were only 28 seconds behind. Is that the same Valverde that lost over 1 minute to dawg on Ax3 domains?

If you read the thread you will see that after looking at close to a dozen SRM files and getting confirmed weights for other riders Vetoo put Horner's revised w/kg @6.25 for 43 minutes.

I will ask again, what do you think Horner's weight is?

Most can see that the Valverde form at the Vuelta was not the same as the Tour, just as Horner's form at TA was not the same as his was at the Vuelta

 

[Race Radio]

The logic being used is just really odd.

w/kg, SRM files, comparing climbing times, are odd? Posting a video and saying "Chris ride bike fast" is far more accurate measurement?

 

[sittingbison]

The point being made RR is that the same rigour and revision is not being applied to Dawg vis a vis weight and comparisons with others SRMs, perhaps because the quoted figure of 5.88W/kg for Dawg during the final 15km of Mont Venteux is palpably incorrect.

Something is seriously amiss with this figure, and many are struggling to understand why you don't question it more.

 

[Netserk]

Most can see that the Valverde form at the Vuelta was not the same as the Tour

Really? IMO he seemed to be around the same level in both GTs, perhaps stronger in the Tour.

After all he was 2nd overall before his puncture, and would very likely have podiumed the Tour without it. In the Vuelta he wasn't really anything special.

 

[zlev11]

And Horner can’t even get close to froome in the ITT.

this is the most important thing, IMO. how can Froome put out so much power in the ITT when he's at his ridiculously low body fat percentage? this is what Kimmage called BS on during the Tour. Horner is similarly skinny but can't TT even close to as well as Froome. if Froome did the Vuelta on Tour form he would have put 2-3 minutes into all other GC contenders in the TT (just as he did to Nibali in the 2012 Tour, which was PEAK Nibali at his targetted GT). Horner clawing back seconds in the mountains wouldn't have gotten him even close to beating Froome overall.

 

[the sceptic]

Really? IMO he seemed to be around the same level in both GTs, perhaps stronger in the Tour.

After all he was 2nd overall before his puncture, and would very likely have podiumed the Tour without it. In the Vuelta he wasn't really anything special.

Its possible that he might have saved something after that, but still I find it hard to believe he got better in the vuelta after having ridden the tour. but hey maybe thats possible in the new clean era of cycling.

 

[Netserk]

Its possible that he might have saved something after that, but still I find it hard to believe he got better in the vuelta after having ridden the tour. but hey maybe thats possible in the new clean era of cycling.

I also think such a comparison is difficult since he probably have better access to recovery in Spain than in France.

That and the different routes make it hard to compare numbers from the two GTs IMO.

 

[thehog]

w/kg, SRM files, comparing climbing times, are odd? Posting a video and saying "Chris ride bike fast" is far more accurate measurement?

Reducing Horner's weight on visual is yes. And because your analysis is a comparison to Froome - leaving Froome's weight as it is, is odd, yes. No arguments there. Froome is not his stated weight.

Care to link VeeToo's revised analysis? I've not seen it. Has he actually done one?

Had him at 5.88 and 6.15 for the steep section.

Pinot was at 6.0 for the total climb - which is more than Froome.

Horner's ride was impressive but he rode smart & drafted the entire climb - bar the last 1.6km

The Dawg on Ventoux threw in some insane attacks and still managed to kill everyone.

Nibs attacked Horner and paid the price.

Froome attacked and did not die. Just got stronger.

They are both *** in their own special ways.

But you're not providing a very convincing argument by manipulating the data on Horner and stating its "real" or "actual" - it's an estimate or guesstimate. Not real.

Sorry. But those are the facts.

And that's why I go on the 1 to 1 match up on Prati albeit early season.

Froome won.

 

[Race Radio]

The point being made RR is that the same rigour and revision is not being applied to Dawg vis a vis weight and comparisons with others SRMs, perhaps because the quoted figure of 5.88W/kg for Dawg during the final 15km of Mont Venteux is palpably incorrect.

Something is seriously amiss with this figure, and many are struggling to understand why you don't question it more.

I agree, it isn't close to as precise as Horner's 6.25. I think 6.1-6.2 for 40+ minutes for Froome is a more accurate reflection of his ability. Note, I only introduced into the discussion as another poster wanted to compare Froome's early season and July. I used the same source for the formula.

I have questioned his performance an Ventoux multiple times. While it may not be the best stage to use for a calculation it is hard to ignore his absurd accelerations.

As for the TT......I have written several times at Horner would lose minutes, not sure why this is even a question, it is obvious to most.

Some like to try to twist my position into something it isn't. Based on W/Kg and climbing times on multiple climbs I think Horner can climb faster at his peak. Some would like to twist this into something more.....it isn't.

 

[Netserk]

These are the Vetooo (more or less) relevant Angliru tweets I could find:

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/378935758792310784
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/379246454377701376
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/379247719790804993
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/379296222088945664
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/380100557496520704
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/380106281186373635
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/382227809466212352
https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/382240842347343872

Is it correct that Horner never published his Angliru SRM?