The Clinic is inherently anti-Sky / anti-Froome

[ferryman]

I agree with much of what you wrote. But previously, I replied to a poster that suggested that Contador and Valverde were largely ignored because they were already caught. I suggested a scenario similar to the Contador case and suggested that if Froome were to go down in a similar way to Contador that the clinic would not move on like they did with Contador. My point is that riders are treated differently here. Admittedly,it is difficult to come up with a scenario exactly similar to Contador because it was almost a one of kind situation. Feel free to assume it is more like a Valverde 2 year ban and he comes back into the peloton and wins immediately. His stage wins in the Dauphine nearly broke the forum, so I stand by my original opinion that he would still be the focus of the clinic and not forgotten. I respect your opinion if you disagree. It makes for a better debate when there are diverse opinions.

I feel that you are trying to suggest that I am saying that the majority of people in the clinic think Contador is clean and that is the double standard. Or that I am trying to prove that Froome is clean. I have made neither of those claims. I have stated in this thread that I think both are clearly doping.

And it has been clearly stated more than once in this thread why Froome/Sky are public enemy number one at the moment for a lot of posters in the clinic. What more do you want?

 

[djpbaltimore]

[/B]
And it has been clearly stated more than once in this thread why Froome/Sky are public enemy number one at the moment for a lot of posters in the clinic. What more do you want?

I was trying to clarify my post to red_flanders. That was my only intent.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Link to posts in The Clinic going on about Contador crashing and pulling out:


.... er there are none.


Link to posts in The Clinic about Froome when he pulled out:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17756&page=1220

Starts at page 1220

Notable posts : 12261, 12263, 12267, 12272, 12292, 12357

See what I did there? I posted a link and noted specific comments to support my claim.

12261 Hog's comment Not that Farell is trustworthy nor Froome but for the record.... http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1515049&postcount=12261

12263 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1515103&postcount=12263 Rollthedice made light of the great likelihood Froome is a doper. You would have found similar comments in a Contador thread some time ago. With increased visibility in a sport comes increased scrutiny and personal opinions. Not everyone is going to love Froome. Just accept it.

12267 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1515764&postcount=12267 If he truly is a giant fraud, he deserves an unlimited amount of flack. As do all dopers violating the integrity of sport.

12272 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1515799&postcount=12272 ???

12292 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1516553&postcount=12292 Hog's personal opinion. We all have one.

12357 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1517051&postcount=12357 Hog's personal opinion. We all have one.

What was stopping you from posting your personal and perhaps contrary opinion of Froome??


The strange thing here is the last two posts are quite like Rasmussen's attempt at TdF glory, and certainly Armstrong. So, plenty of precedent for those opinions.

 

[red_flanders]

I agree with much of what you wrote. But previously, I replied to a poster that suggested that Contador and Valverde were largely ignored because they were already caught. I suggested a scenario similar to the Contador case and suggested that if Froome were to go down in a similar way to Contador that the clinic would not move on like they did with Contador. My point is that riders are treated differently here. Admittedly, it is difficult to come up with a scenario exactly similar to Contador because it was almost a one of a kind situation. Feel free to assume it is more like a Valverde 2 year ban and he comes back into the peloton and wins immediately. His stage wins in the Dauphine nearly broke the forum, so I stand by my original opinion that he would still be the focus of the clinic and not be forgotten. I respect your opinion if you disagree. It makes for a better debate when there are diverse opinions.

I feel that you are trying to suggest that I am saying that the majority of people in the clinic think Contador is clean and that is the double standard. Or that I am trying to prove that Froome is clean. I have made neither of those claims. I have stated in this thread that I think both are clearly doping.

My comments were more general, RE: either being clean or dirty, not aimed at you but characterizing discussions here.

I don't disagree at all that he would get slammed if he got caught and came back riding just as ridiculously as before. Of course he would. There are a good dozen reasons why Froome gets more flack which many have elaborated many times, mostly having to do with the overall Sky/Froome public statements and the overall (to be frank) ignorance of a great part of their fan base, which is mostly a new fan phenomenon.

I think there is far less double-standard than folks try and create.

 

[Froomster]

This is just outright wrong. The only sanction Contador has ever had in his entire career, is for the clenbuterol case. And as I am sure you are aware he was only sanctioned on the basis of absolute liability in spite of the fact the 50 trillionths of a gram of clen was found in his system on July 21, 2010 had no performance enhancing effect and played absolutely no role in his winning the 2010 TDF. That is 0.000,000,000,050 of a gram.

It was common ground through out the case that this amount of clen could not under any circumstances have had a performance enhancing effect.

When people say the Clinic is inherently biased that is not quite right. There are a large portion of the posters, I would suggest a healthy majority who are biased in favour of certain riders being dopers in spite of the fact there is no evidence of the fact. Just gossip, speculation, conjecture, innuendo, guilt by association etc. The usual trash tabloid like comment.

This part of your comment is spurious misrepresentation.

This is not a true representation of what happened, nor what the authorities sought to argue. In fact:

Contador's 2010 test showed a spike in phthalates in his system near the end of that summer's Tour de France, the first time the plasticizer test was used. His samples also tested positive at that time for clenbuterol, a performance enhancing drug that riders have been known to use illegally in off-season workouts.

Contador claims that the clenbuterol got into his system when he ate tainted steaks. The WADA and the International Cycling Union said that the drug most likely came from an illegal blood transfusion, because the plasticizer spike was detected the day before he tested positive for clenbuterol. The Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, Switzerland, agreed, overturning an earlier ruling by the Spanish cycling federation. Contador is now banned from racing for two years.

"Although you can not directly know of the source of DEHP in the system, research has reported extremely high levels of DEHP on the day of blood reinfusion compared to the previous day," said Steven Neese, who studies endocrine disrupting chemicals at the University of Illinois. "These levels remain high even a day later."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/widespread-plasticizer-clouds-doping-tests-cyclists/

 

[Froomster]

Link to the Contador juiced up on his return thread. The poll at the top is instructive:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17346&page=245

 

[thehog]

If Froome didn't look like he had only just learned to ride a bike and Wiggins had had some sort of GT result before the age of 29, I'm sure the clinic wouldn't be quite so anti-Sky/Froome.

They only have themselves to blame. Sky should have picked another rider other than Froome to be their 7 time winner of he Tour. At lease someone who looks like they can rode a bike.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

This is not a true representation of what happened, nor what the authorities sought to argue. In fact:

Nicely smacked down. Thank you.

 

[djpbaltimore]

My comments were more general, RE: either being clean or dirty, not aimed at you but characterizing discussions here.

I don't disagree at all that he would get slammed if he got caught and came back riding just as ridiculously as before. Of course he would. There are a good dozen reasons why Froome gets more flack which many have elaborated many times, mostly having to do with the overall Sky/Froome public statements and the overall (to be frank) ignorance of a great part of their fan base, which is mostly a new fan phenomenon.

I think there is far less double-standard than folks try and create.

And obviously I have my own inherent biases as well. My apologies if I was starting to beat a dead horse with my points yesterday.

 

[RownhamHill]

This is not a true representation of what happened, nor what the authorities sought to argue. In fact:

Ermmm. What you've quoted isn't a true representation of what happened either. In fact:

The Panel concluded that both the meat contamination scenario and the blood transfusion scenario were, in theory, possible explanations for the adverse analytical finding, but were however equally unlikely. In the Panel’s opinion, on the basis of the evidence adduced, the presence of clenbuterol was more likely caused by the ingestion of a contaminated food supplement.

http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/5649/5048/0/Media20Release20_English_2012.02.06.pdf

 

[sniper]

This is not a true representation of what happened, nor what the authorities sought to argue. In fact:

i seem to remember quite well from contador's first press conference after his positive CLEN test that he explained that the tainted meat he had eaten had been transported in a plastic vacuum package.
at that point it seemed like a weird detail for him to digress about, but it later maked perfect sense. Apparently he already knew about the plasticizer positive by then and was providing himself with an excuse.

 

[thehog]

Ermmm. What you've quoted isn't a true representation of what happened either. In fact:



http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/5649/5048/0/Media20Release20_English_2012.02.06.pdf

Correct. And if Contador hadn't appealed the positive sample the entire "theory" of a blood transfusion never would have been raised.

He was only ever suspended for clenbuterol.

 

[TheSpud]

<snipped>

12292 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1516553&postcount=12292 Hog's personal opinion. We all have one.

12357 http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1517051&postcount=12357 Hog's personal opinion. We all have one.

What was stopping you from posting your personal and perhaps contrary opinion of Froome??


The strange thing here is the last two posts are quite like Rasmussen's attempt at TdF glory, and certainly Armstrong. So, plenty of precedent for those opinions.

I don't have a problem with them being opinions - that's what a forum is for (+ debate, banter, etc.).

I was just questioning / observing that in my opinion The Clinic seems very anti-Sky / Froome especially in the posts following Froome's abandonment compared with Contador's (I couldn't find any). 12357 was probably one of the posts that I felt was out of order - it seemed to be a real personal attack on someone who'd just broken both his wrists in a race that was his main target for the year. Of course he's going to look distraught - in pain and p1ssed off no doubt. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive but just felt it was harsh.

Maybe I should have started the thread as a question "Is The Clinic inherently ..." - probably would have got the same posts though (although not sure how we got on to the lottery fund part...).

My views on Froome? Well I'm a Brit so naturally want to support SKY and their riders. I think they do some great things, but also other things raise questions in my mind - probably more at a rider level than at the team level. I do think a lot of what (is attributed to what) they say is often pulled out of all proportion and bent to suit peoples views (on both sides). I wouldn't have enough hours in the day if I posted (and then replied) on many of the threads I read, and doubtless much has already been covered but the reaction to his abandoning did shock me. I follow other sports and have had other forums literally take over my life in the past so trying to avoid it here.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Rasmussen / Armstrong comparison though so you may have to help me with that one.

Cheers

Spuddo

 

[DirtyWorks]

I don't have a problem with them being opinions - that's what a forum is for (+ debate, banter, etc.).

Buried in that same thread, I believe you would find my post and others wishing the guy well/a swift recovery. These are the same participants who have grave doubts about his recent podiums being some kind of natural performance.

The claim that there is some enormous bias is false.

Close the thread!

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Rasmussen / Armstrong comparison though so you may have to help me with that one.

Cheers

Spuddo

The apparent will to sacrifice everything including personal health, the integrity of the sport, and more, is clearly present in Froome's actions as it was in Chicken and Armstrong.

 

[TheSpud]

The apparent will to sacrifice everything including personal health, the integrity of the sport, and more, is clearly present in Froome's actions as it was in Chicken and Armstrong.

Oh ok. And its not in Contador's case (or others)?

 

[TheSpud]

Buried in that same thread, I believe you would find my post and others wishing the guy well/a swift recovery. These are the same participants who have grave doubts about his recent podiums being some kind of natural performance.

The claim that there is some enormous bias is false.

Close the thread!

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one - there may be some posts of goodwill but there were a lot that weren't. And again I will state, that in my initial analysis of what was said about Contador - there were none for him. Therefore (IMO) your last but one sentence is wrong! Anyway - let the debate continue.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Oh ok. And its not in Contador's case (or others)?

Did you ever see Contador using an inhaler with the cameras rolling? Did he ever talk about winning 7 TdF's? Did Contador dominate fields for months at a time like a WT rider showing up at the local cafe run? And then insulting everyone by quitting at the end of July.

Contador is but one example. There's no doubt you can find some bad behaviour from riders, but it just doesn't compare to Froome and Mrs. Froome.

 

[RownhamHill]

Did you ever see Contador using an inhaler with the cameras rolling? Did he ever talk about winning 7 TdF's? Did Contador dominate fields for months at a time like a WT rider showing up at the local cafe run? And then insulting everyone by quitting at the end of July.

Contador is but one example. There's no doubt you can find some bad behaviour from riders, but it just doesn't compare to Froome and Mrs. Froome.

No but I did see Contador hold up 7 fingers when he won his last GT. . .

Do you really honestly believe that there's no bias towards Contador over Froome on this forum? It's really quite extraordinary if you do. And I say that as someone who thought this tour was epic until Monday, when I suddenly lost interest.

 

[Netserk]

No but I did see Contador hold up 7 fingers when he won his last GT. . .

Do you really honestly believe that there's no bias towards Contador over Froome on this forum? It's really quite extraordinary if you do. And I say that as someone who thought this for was epic until Monday, when I suddenly lost interest.

Maybe that has more to do with the PRR section than the clinic...

 

[Benotti69]

I don't have a problem with them being opinions - that's what a forum is for (+ debate, banter, etc.).

I was just questioning / observing that in my opinion The Clinic seems very anti-Sky / Froome especially in the posts following Froome's abandonment compared with Contador's (I couldn't find any). 12357 was probably one of the posts that I felt was out of order - it seemed to be a real personal attack on someone who'd just broken both his wrists in a race that was his main target for the year. Of course he's going to look distraught - in pain and p1ssed off no doubt. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive but just felt it was harsh.

Maybe I should have started the thread as a question "Is The Clinic inherently ..." - probably would have got the same posts though (although not sure how we got on to the lottery fund part...).

My views on Froome? Well I'm a Brit so naturally want to support SKY and their riders. I think they do some great things, but also other things raise questions in my mind - probably more at a rider level than at the team level. I do think a lot of what (is attributed to what) they say is often pulled out of all proportion and bent to suit peoples views (on both sides). I wouldn't have enough hours in the day if I posted (and then replied) on many of the threads I read, and doubtless much has already been covered but the reaction to his abandoning did shock me. I follow other sports and have had other forums literally take over my life in the past so trying to avoid it here.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Rasmussen / Armstrong comparison though so you may have to help me with that one.

Cheers

Spuddo

It is an English 'speaking' forum. Before Froome/Wiggins/Sky there was lots of 'opinion' about a certain Texan and whether his wins were 'honest', then to segway in between Texas and the UK(Kneya) we all went via Australia and discussed our 'opinions' on a certain miniscule dog loving antipodean.

So if one felt inclined to some research one might find that in an English speaking forum most of the opinion will be topical about riders from the English speaking world. Strange as that may seem. But again if one felt inclined one might discover that nearly every rider who podiumed in a GT,in the modern era, has been discussed in this English 'speaking' forum.

I think the only bias in this part of the forum is anti doping. If certain anglo saxons get more attention than others it is because people are willing to defend the indefensible, based on the 'ol 'never tested positive' argument and defend the PR that a certain team puts out as 'truth', which can cause much hilarity and lengthening of related threads.

 

[go crazy]

Could it just be as simple as Froome is way way more of an unlikable character than Contador? Contador had to fight through Armstrong when they were on the same team, and still won. Did Contador/Mrs. Contador try to get Armstrong kicked off the Tour roster? AC just mans up and does his thing with little fanfare. Froome tries so hard to be something he's not, and just comes across as dull and unlikable. And his lady friend is unbearable. I don't think that's debatable.

 

[RownhamHill]

Could it just be as simple as Froome is way way more of an unlikable character than Contador? Contador had to fight through Armstrong when they were on the same team, and still won. Did Contador/Mrs. Contador try to get Armstrong kicked off the Tour roster? AC just mans up and does his thing with little fanfare. Froome tries so hard to be something he's not, and just comes across as dull and unlikable. And his lady friend is unbearable. I don't think that's debatable.

Mr hammer, please meet mr nail.

I just don't understand why people try to deny this. Bertie is obviously a boss and most people love him for it (me included), Christopher 'Chris' Froome, not so much.

 

[red_flanders]

No but I did see Contador hold up 7 fingers when he won his last GT. . .

Do you really honestly believe that there's no bias towards Contador over Froome on this forum? It's really quite extraordinary if you do. And I say that as someone who thought this for was epic until Monday, when I suddenly lost interest.

Why use the term "bias"?

Is it not more accurate to say that more people on the forum dislike Froome? Or that more people favor or support Contador? "Bias" puts a level of blame on the forum members for disliking someone. Why? Froome has earned dislike, and his fans have fanned the flames.

Contador is simply a more charismatic and sympathetic character to more people. Why not spend some time trying to figure out what Froome and Sky have done to earn such scorn instead of criticizing the forum for. coming to a certain generalized tone?

Really curious what spawns this idea that the dislike is somehow the fault of the collective observers here instead of the people in question.

 

[red_flanders]

Could it just be as simple as Froome is way way more of an unlikable character than Contador? Contador had to fight through Armstrong when they were on the same team, and still won. Did Contador/Mrs. Contador try to get Armstrong kicked off the Tour roster? AC just mans up and does his thing with little fanfare. Froome tries so hard to be something he's not, and just comes across as dull and unlikable. And his lady friend is unbearable. I don't think that's debatable.

Said it better than I did.