The Clinic is inherently anti-Sky / anti-Froome

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May 27, 2012
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I'm not gonna read though this troll bullsh!t to find out, but I do hope that someone has informed the OP what of "inherent" means...

And no, I didn't really read through it before posting a couple of days ago...I just free-formed it. Jazz style.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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ChewbaccaD said:
I'm not gonna read though this troll bullsh!t to find out, but I do hope that someone has informed the OP what of "inherent" means...

And no, I didn't really read through it before posting a couple of days ago...I just free-formed it. Jazz style.

The use of the word, "inherently" is entirely consistent with the OP's complaint. He's wrong, but that's another matter altogether.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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go crazy said:
Could it just be as simple as Froome is way way more of an unlikable character than Contador? Contador had to fight through Armstrong when they were on the same team, and still won. Did Contador/Mrs. Contador try to get Armstrong kicked off the Tour roster? AC just mans up and does his thing with little fanfare. Froome tries so hard to be something he's not, and just comes across as dull and unlikable. And his lady friend is unbearable. I don't think that's debatable.

You nailed it.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Without a doubt, clenbuterol is an open-and-shut case as presence is the burden of proof.

But, it's important to remember the details of the positive. Someone on anti-doping/lab leaked the positive and the UCI denied there was a positive. This denial didn't work and Contador had to be charged.

Oh ya, there was other BS going around - gotta love the UCI. And anyone who can think clearly knows there was far more to this than the Clen.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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djpbaltimore said:
Those are great examples of Contador blowing smoke up people's orifices with little or no rending of garments in the clinic. A great example of the double standard between Contador and Froome. And I feel it has little to do with Contador being old news and more to do with Contador being well liked in the forum.

As for the trains. TS Postal blows the peloton apart in the Vosges (at Sky speeds according to Horner) and it is selfless teammates launching their captain to a glorious victory over his GC rivals. Sky uses the same strategy and it is a boring, mindless tactic, exhibiting the doping culture in the sport. I admittedly exaggerate slightly to make my point, but claiming vociferously that there is not a double standard doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

Well, for what it's worth, I've been very vocal about Bert and Valverde in the past (as well as Pharmstrong). One of the things that really tends to get under my skin is the proclamation of innocence when you have either demonstrated performances and presented other evidence that is overwhelmingly (to me) indicative of doping, or you have been popped but are fighting it and dragging the BS along (tainted beef would be an example).
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Ripper said:
Well, for what it's worth, I've been very vocal about Bert and Valverde in the past (as well as Pharmstrong). One of the things that really tends to get under my skin is the proclamation of innocence when you have either demonstrated performances and presented other evidence that is overwhelmingly (to me) indicative of doping, or you have been popped but are fighting it and dragging the BS along (tainted beef would be an example).

that and how noticable their drop in form was upon returning - supposedly off the sauce... :rolleyes:
 
Jul 3, 2014
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ChewbaccaD said:
I'm not gonna read though this troll bullsh!t to find out, but I do hope that someone has informed the OP what of "inherent" means...

And no, I didn't really read through it before posting a couple of days ago...I just free-formed it. Jazz style.

I know exactly what inherent means thank you.
 
Jul 1, 2011
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red_flanders said:
Why use the term "bias"?

Is it not more accurate to say that more people on the forum dislike Froome? Or that more people favor or support Contador? "Bias" puts a level of blame on the forum members for disliking someone. Why? Froome has earned dislike, and his fans have fanned the flames.

Contador is simply a more charismatic and sympathetic character to more people. Why not spend some time trying to figure out what Froome and Sky have done to earn such scorn instead of criticizing the forum for. coming to a certain generalized tone?

Really curious what spawns this idea that the dislike is somehow the fault of the collective observers here instead of the people in question.

What on earth are you talking about?

Who's blaming anyone for disliking Froome, not me. I can't stand the guy.

I'm just observing - like you seem to be - that Contador is a more charismatic and sympathetic figure to more people, and as such more people tend to be more sympathetic towards him. And I'm registering surprise that an intelligent poster like DirtyWorks seems genuinely not to see that.

Really curious what spawns your idea that to observe bias is akin to apportioning moral judgement and blame.
 
Apr 3, 2009
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RownhamHill said:
What on earth are you talking about?

Who's blaming anyone for disliking Froome, not me. I can't stand the guy.

I'm just observing - like you seem to be - that Contador is a more charismatic and sympathetic figure to more people, and as such more people tend to be more sympathetic towards him. And I'm registering surprise that an intelligent poster like DirtyWorks seems genuinely not to see that.

Really curious what spawns your idea that to observe bias is akin to apportioning moral judgement and blame.

The definition of the word spawns this idea.

bi·as
1. prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.

It's very simple. To suggest or accuse bias (not to "observe" it as you have written) when it does not exist, is to say there's an issue with the poster, not the rider. It assumes unfair pre-judgement instead of rational, fact-based judgement.

For most posters in here critical of Froome, it is my opinion the that there is no bias. The ideas that the view of him is unfair and/or comes from pre-judgement is in my view utter nonsense.

If one wants to suggest bias, as many, many Froome fans and defenders seem to do now on a nearly daily basis, the burden is on them to prove pre-judgement, a lack of fairness, and explain why someone would be biased against Froome.

In my case I was biased in favor of Froome if anything, before I knew much about him. He's an english-speaking rider on a mostly english-speaking team. His performances and his and his team's behavior changed my view.

You can't just accuse people of bias and just expect to have them let it pass by.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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red_flanders said:
You can't just accuse people of bias and just expect to have them let it pass by.

The bias is against ridiculous performance jumps and ugly riding style, yes?

Froome just happens to fit the bill, but the bias is not against him per se, but what he is doing, has done, and they way in which it happened.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
The bias is against ridiculous performance jumps and ugly riding style, yes?

Froome just happens to fit the bill, but the bias is not against him per se, but what he is doing, has done, and they way in which it happened.

This was mostly true until "The Climb" came along, which went a long way to personalising the bias.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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frenchfry said:
This was mostly true until "The Climb" came along, which went a long way to personalising the bias.

I guess what I am saying is that the rider in question is irrelevant. If someone from Spain or Australia or Ireland or America or Latvia came out and did that performance, rode that ugly, wrote that poorly and negatively, they would cop it exactly the same.


The problem is not necessarily with the individual (for some I realise it is), but with the behaviour, which is pretty much derided universally.
 
Apr 3, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
I guess what I am saying is that the rider in question is irrelevant. If someone from Spain or Australia or Ireland or America or Latvia came out and did that performance, rode that ugly, wrote that poorly and negatively, they would cop it exactly the same.


The problem is not necessarily with the individual (for some I realise it is), but with the behaviour, which is pretty much derided universally.

Very well put.
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Froomster said:
This is not a true representation of what happened, nor what the authorities sought to argue. In fact:

What is the source of your article? Please give me a link, because the portion of the story you quote is inconsistent with the CAS Reasons for Judgment in the Contador case.

The CAS concluded the source of the clen was probably a tainted supplement even though AC was not arguing this. In addition the so called plasticizer theory was not even in issue in the CAS case. Read the actual decision about what the UCI and WADA argued before the CAS because the snippet of the undisclosed article you site is not evenly remotely accurate.
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Froomster;1525905]This is not a true representation of what happened, nor what the authorities sought to argue. In fact

The quote you cite of Steven Neese @ in the article you site http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ests-cyclists/ is quoted by you in isolation to other aspects of the article and thus out of context.

1. You ignore for example the words of Neese himself where he says,

"Although you can not directly know of the source of DEHP in the system, ....

What this means is what Neese says. It is not possible to know that any phthalates (DEHP) found in a sample came from a blood bag.

2. You neglected to quote that portion of the article where the author Brett Israel says,

"Experts — and Contador — say that these chemical residues are so widespread that there is too much doubt about how they got into an athlete's body."

This indicates there is a plethora of expert opinion that residues from plasticizers are so ubiquitous that they come from a vast array of sources other than blood bags. For example water bottles as just one of many other potential sources for a plasticizer.

3. You further neglected to cite Dr. Joe Braun from Mr. Israel's article you referenced the following,

"DEHP is the primary plasticizer in many medical supplies such as IV blood bags, which are about 40 percent DEHP. But it's also in food, and diet is the largest source of DEHP exposure, said Joe Braun, an epidemiologist at Harvard University. It apparently gets into food from use of some plastic food wraps and containers.

4. You neglect to mention the plasticizer test used in Contador's case was so suspect WADA cancelled its use.

" Due to the controversy, funding for the test to detect these chemicals was discontinued in November 2011."

5. You further neglect to cite that portion of the article where it states,

"The World Anti-Doping Agency funded research to develop a plasticizer test that would catch cheating cyclists, but so far it's not the smoking gun that many have hoped for. Plasticizers known as phthalates are used in everyday products, with possible toxic effects.

6. The article you cite states as follows,

"The WADA and the International Cycling Union said that the drug most likely came from an illegal blood transfusion, because the plasticizer spike was detected the day before he tested positive for clenbuterol. The Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, Switzerland, agreed, overturning an earlier ruling by the Spanish cycling federation."

This is in fact NOT what the CAS agreed or even remotely decided in Contador's case. On the issue of the plasticizer theory of WADA and the UCI the CAS found as follows at paragraph 454 of its judgment, the following,

454. To sum up, for the above reasons, the Panel finds that although the blood transfusion theory is a possible explanation for the adverse analytical finding, in light of all the evidence adduced and as explained above, it is very unlikely to have occurred

Therefore like many posters in the Clinic your research is incomplete, distorted and a reckless misrepresentation of the actual facts and outcome in the Contador case.


Dear Wiggo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froomster View Post

Nicely smacked down. Thank you.

Once again Dear Wiggo where your ceaseless ineptitude continues to manifest itself - double smack down. Do your research. And by the way - your welcome.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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King Boonen said:
Pretty sure this thread isn't meant to be about Contadors' obvious blood doping...
Agreed.

It is about a pretty simple Anglo Saxon topic starter seeking for attention who wants to start a thread when his boyhood hero crases out even before the cobblestones start.

Nuff said?
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Agreed.

It is about a pretty simple Anglo Saxon topic starter seeking for attention who wants to start a thread when his boyhood hero crases out even before the cobblestones start.

Nuff said?

Pretty much.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
I guess what I am saying is that the rider in question is irrelevant. If someone from Spain or Australia or Ireland or America or Latvia came out and did that performance, rode that ugly, wrote that poorly and negatively, they would cop it exactly the same.


The problem is not necessarily with the individual (for some I realise it is), but with the behaviour, which is pretty much derided universally.

yes, nailed it.