The Contador Myth

[rolfrae]

Well at least we know you are not a Queen, since Berto obviusly is riding on meat

Phew, I can get back in the closet then!

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Power levels?

Contadors was

over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arrr this scouter is broken!

 

[Boeing]

Discussions here often trend toward disappointment in riders who have not lived up to hype and expectation. Riders like Lovkvist. I am guilty of this myself and forget to consider that lesser results might mean he or others like him are riding clean

 

[The Bald Eagle]

hahahaha. Did daddy race clean? There is your answer on how clean sonny boy is. Roche is not clean, not by some margin. Are you Irish?

Well I ain't Irish that I can assure You. Yes Roche Senior was definitely not a clean Rider. But Roche Junior is a clean Rider. If You think that he is doping that is Your own Personal opinion, and of course You are entitled to that. Any one with a brain cell or two Knows that Stephen Roche's ride to La Plagne in the Tour of 1987, his subsequent collapse at the finish line, and his remarkable recovery to ride the next day's stage seemingly unaffected is not possible, with out resorting to some sort of performance enhancer. Well just call it some sort of a cure so to speak . And of course the Conconi files which show that Stephen Roche was administrated EPO. Because his father was a doper absolutely does not prove one way or another that his Son Nicholas is resorting to doping of some kind. Yes there are dopers but Roche Junior ain't among them. I remember reading a statement made by Nicolas during the Tour De France. Something to the effect that after a hard stage in the mountains, the next day he suffered greatly . He said that it took him about 60 or so miles to find his legs. That they were still sore from the the previous day's effort. Call it lactic build up or whatever You like. That is consistent with clean riding. You will see some of the faces of suffering that he makes from time to time. And the faces of suffering that he pulls are extreme so much so that he could win a prize. In this Years Vuelta he finishes sixth on the final mountain stage To Bola Del Mundo. Did You notice that when he reached the finish line he was so exhausted that he had to be held up on his Bike by a steward!! He was out on his feet. Compare that to the doped up Mosquera. Who looked relatively fresh at the finish line. That ride by roche is consistent with clean riding. The Guy finishes 97 out of 99 finishers in The World Road race Championship. Almost 14 minutes down on The winner, Thor Hushovd of Norway. Of course he rode Two Grand Tours for the first time in one Year in his career. He gets into the lead group. Can't stay with the pace. " The race was to long for me he say's. I am not fully recovered from My efforts In the Veulta. I fell back" Any one Who knows a thing or two about cycling knows that a doped rider. Two weeks after the finish of The Tour Of Spain, would be well recovered prepared to race, and right up there in the thick of the action at the finish. So before people go Jumping on the Bandwagan, and accusing this rider and that rider, that they are doping, get Your fact's correct. You do not accuse a rider of doping unless You have some fact's to back up a bold an rather silly statement, about a Professional Cyclist such as Nicolas Roche in this case. This Guy is clearly a clean rider.

 

[rolfrae]

If Roche Junior is doping then I hope he's kept the receipts to get a refund - his results so far don't merit the risks. The guy has spoken out against doping so often and rides in a manner that suggests he's clean. Of course that's not proof but I for one would be gob-smacked if was doping.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

If Roche Junior is doping then I hope he's kept the receipts to get a refund - his results so far don't merit the risks. The guy has spoken out against doping so often and rides in a manner that suggests he's clean. Of course that's not proof but I for one would be gob-smacked if was doping.

Yes I second that. I concur with Your opinion. I would also like to add that those Pros such as Young Roche and others that are riding clean, need all the support that they can get from the public and Cycling fan's. Exorcise the Doper's
and encourage the clean rider's. After all it's the clean rider's that are the true champ's.

 

[hrotha]

Yes I second that. I concur with Your opinion. I would also like to add that those Pros such as Young Roche and others that are riding clean, need all the support that they can get from the public and Cycling fan's. Exorcise the Doper's
and encourage the clean rider's. After all it's the clean rider's that are the true champ's.

Look, there's no specific reason to think Roche dopes (other than "they all do it and blah blah blah"), but in this day and age it's just dumb to say something like "he's clean, 100% sure" about anyone, unless you're his wife or something, just because you like them. Hell, even being his wife wouldn't be enough to be sure. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[Hugh Januss]

If Roche Junior is doping then I hope he's kept the receipts to get a refund - his results so far don't merit the risks. The guy has spoken out against doping so often and rides in a manner that suggests he's clean. Of course that's not proof but I for one would be gob-smacked if was doping.

I would say he is as clean as a certain other son of a famous father who's results never seemed to live up to the pedigree.

Note: said rider is currently employed as DS of the feeder team of another famous rider who has "never been sanctioned for doping".

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

Well I ain't Irish that I can assure You. Yes Roche Senior was definitely not a clean Rider. But Roche Junior is a clean Rider. If You think that he is doping that is Your own Personal opinion, and of course You are entitled to that. Any one with a brain cell or two Knows that Stephen Roche's ride to La Plagne in the Tour of 1987, his subsequent collapse at the finish line, and his remarkable recovery to ride the next day's stage seemingly unaffected is not possible, with out resorting to some sort of performance enhancer. Well just call it some sort of a cure so to speak . And of course the Conconi files which show that Stephen Roche was administrated EPO. Because his father was a doper absolutely does not prove one way or another that his Son Nicholas is resorting to doping of some kind. Yes there are dopers but Roche Junior ain't among them. I remember reading a statement made by Nicolas during the Tour De France. Something to the effect that after a hard stage in the mountains, the next day he suffered greatly . He said that it took him about 60 or so miles to find his legs. That they were still sore from the the previous day's effort. Call it lactic build up or whatever You like. That is consistent with clean riding. You will see some of the faces of suffering that he makes from time to time. And the faces of suffering that he pulls are extreme so much so that he could win a prize. In this Years Vuelta he finishes sixth on the final mountain stage To Bola Del Mundo. Did You notice that when he reached the finish line he was so exhausted that he had to be held up on his Bike by a steward!! He was out on his feet. Compare that to the doped up Mosquera. Who looked relatively fresh at the finish line. That ride by roche is consistent with clean riding. The Guy finishes 97 out of 99 finishers in The World Road race Championship. Almost 14 minutes down on The winner, Thor Hushovd of Norway. Of course he rode Two Grand Tours for the first time in one Year in his career. He gets into the lead group. Can't stay with the pace. " The race was to long for me he say's. I am not fully recovered from My efforts In the Veulta. I fell back" Any one Who knows a thing or two about cycling knows that a doped rider. Two weeks after the finish of The Tour Of Spain, would be well recovered prepared to race, and right up there in the thick of the action at the finish. So before people go Jumping on the Bandwagan, and accusing this rider and that rider, that they are doping, get Your fact's correct. You do not accuse a rider of doping unless You have some fact's to back up a bold an rather silly statement, about a Professional Cyclist such as Nicolas Roche in this case. This Guy is clearly a clean rider.

Although I agree with you about Roche - I also think he is clean. I can't help but notice in this reply you didn't offer any facts to support your position.

You've provided a lot anecdotal evidence, but those aren't facts. They are also just opinions. Its a fact Roche rode poorly at World's just two weeks after a fantastic ride in the Vuelta - but it's simply an opinion to state this is because he rode a clean Vuelta and it's insufficient time for a clean athlete to recover whereas a doped rider would have been fine. We simply don't know this to be fact. Especially since each athlete is unique and will have slightly different reactions and adaptations to stimuli - I think this is true for dopers and non-dopers.

I have the same problem as you... I find it is really difficult to factually prove rider xxx is clean. There are quite a few riders who I 'think' are clean. But we simply can't prove it because there aren't enough facts. There may be some (that are often weak), coupled with somewhat convincing anecdotal evidence but never enough to change the opinions of die hard skeptics.

BTW I also agree with you about Roche's dad. Just because his dad doped doesn't mean he would advise his son to do so as well. I don't think the 'guilt by association argument' is true 100% of the time. And I don't think its true of Roche-but that is just my opinion.

Your post raises an interesting question: how can we create a convincing argument that an athlete is clean? I've never seen it done, and I'm not sure its possible. On the flip-side its very easy to create a convincing argument a rider is doped.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

Look, there's no specific reason to think Roche dopes (other than "they all do it and blah blah blah"), but in this day and age it's just dumb to say something like "he's clean, 100% sure" about anyone, unless you're his wife or something, just because you like them. Hell, even being his wife wouldn't be enough to be sure. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Would it be somewhat legitimate on this forum then to say "I personally know riders xxx, we are close friends and based on these personal relationships I know 99.99% he is clean?".

Is there unequal weight to a rider's comments taken from a series of media interviews versus his comments from a private conversation you've had with him directly?

 

[maltiv]

Discussions here often trend toward disappointment in riders who have not lived up to hype and expectation. Riders like Lovkvist. I am guilty of this myself and forget to consider that lesser results might mean he or others like him are riding clean

Good point! It is really hard to discuss under-performing riders when the reasoning for their mediocre performances could be that they simply are not doping, which ultimately could mean that said under-performing rider is actually the best clean cyclist...For what we know, Löfkvist could be the factual winner of TDF 2010. It is surely confusing.

Personally I firmly believe that Team Sky (come on, look at their climbing!), as well as most Norwegian cyclists, are clean. Everyone else...I have no idea.

 

[hrotha]

Would it be somewhat legitimate on this forum then to say "I personally know riders xxx, we are close friends and based on these personal relationships I know 99.99% he is clean?".

Is there unequal weight to a rider's comments taken from a series of media interviews versus his comments from a private conversation you've had with him directly?

Let me put it this way: if you were friends with Armstrong or Contador and they told you they were clean, would you believe them?

I'd say if Roche told a close friend he's clean in a private conversation that's more believable than anything he says in the press, but unfortunately pro cycling is in such a state that it's not enough.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

Let me put it this way: if you were friends with Armstrong or Contador and they told you they were clean, would you believe them?

I'd say if Roche told a close friend he's clean in a private conversation that's more believable than anything he says in the press, but unfortunately pro cycling is in such a state that it's not enough.

I am not close friends with either Contador or Armstrong. But I am close friends with a few PT riders. Through them I've become acquainted with a dozen odd other riders and team staff - including physiologists and trainers.

The same conversations that happen here about doping happen amongst these PT guys... from time to time. From those conversations I've taken away an opinion that there are quite a few clean PT riders. Certainly there are also a lot of dopers. But I get the impression there are more clean riders than ppl on this forum assume.

Call them naive PT riders - but some of these guys are floored by Contador's positive. Others not so much. But he - Contador - did have a pretty decent rep as a ~ currently ~ clean guy.

That is looking far less likely with each passing day.

Oh, about your first question: I would not have believed Armstong. I would have believed Contador (is currently clean, but not in the past). I don't believe that about Contador anymore.

 

[Benotti69]

Good point! It is really hard to discuss under-performing riders when the reasoning for their mediocre performances could be that they simply are not doping, which ultimately could mean that said under-performing rider is actually the best clean cyclist...For what we know, Löfkvist could be the factual winner of TDF 2010. It is surely confusing.

Personally I firmly believe that Team Sky (come on, look at their climbing!), as well as most Norwegian cyclists, are clean. Everyone else...I have no idea.

why the Norge cyclists. Their cross country skiers were notorious for EPO use years back and was there a story of a few deaths due to it?

TeamSky i think are using PEDs, whether they are on a much lower level than others or something different no doubt we will find out at some stage....

 

[Protein]

I think it's unlikely Roche is doping. He has shown incremental improvements each year.

 

[cornas]

why the Norge cyclists. Their cross country skiers were notorious for EPO use years back and was there a story of a few deaths due to it?

That's the first time I've heard that. Would you care to elaborate?

 

[webvan]

Many good points here, obviously it's hard to prove someone isn't doping, but having ups and downs, like the contenders on the 89 TDF does make it look more "normal" or like Roche at the Worlds...when was the last time any of the a GC contenders "bonked" real bad ? Of course there is the possibility of better training...

 

[luckyboy]

Call them naive PT riders - but some of these guys are floored by Contador's positive. Others not so much. But he - Contador - did have a pretty decent rep as a ~ currently ~ clean guy.

Haha, seriously!?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

why the Norge cyclists. Their cross country skiers were notorious for EPO use years back and was there a story of a few deaths due to it?

No, they have never been "notorious for EPO use". There's not a shred of evidence against any norwegian XC skier, ever.

TeamSky i think are using PEDs, whether they are on a much lower level than others or something different no doubt we will find out at some stage....

What reason is there to believe Team Sky are a bunch of dopers? That's something I really cannot fathom. I just don't understand why anyone would find them suspicious in the slightest compared to other teams.

 

[webvan]

Wiggo's "odd looking" blood values during the 2009 TDF for a start, odd in the sense that they looked a lot like LA's !

As for AC being "clean"...let's not forget the "mysterious" AC from Puerto...

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Wiggo's "odd looking" blood values during the 2009 TDF for a start, odd in the sense that they looked a lot like LA's !

So what? He rode for Garmin then and was much worse this year riding for Sky. If anything, Wiggo's case points towards Sky being clean.

They did not look like LA's btw. Brad's numbers were actually considerably lower by the end of the Tour, unlike Lance's.

 

[luckyboy]

No, they have never been "notorious for EPO use". There's not a shred of evidence against any norwegian XC skier, ever.

Yeah, to be fair I've only read about Finnish guys doping. Not really bothered though.

So what? He rode for Garmin then and was much worse this year riding for Sky. If anything, Wiggo's case points towards Sky being clean.

They did not look like LA's btw. Brad's numbers were actually considerably lower by the end of the Tour, unlike Lance's.

Wiggin's numbers were way too vague to really be able to draw anything from, apart from them being the same at the end as they were halfway through + the spike at Sion. And Wiggin's Hb was 14 at the end of the Tour. Armstrong's was 14.5. Wiggin's off-score was about 84, and LA's was 95.9. Would've been nice if Wiggin's had a nice graph with quite a few results (& showing retics, Hct) like the one Lance released.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Look, there's no specific reason to think Roche dopes (other than "they all do it and blah blah blah"), but in this day and age it's just dumb to say something like "he's clean, 100% sure" about anyone, unless you're his wife or something, just because you like them. Hell, even being his wife wouldn't be enough to be sure. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Listen mate I do not like your comment. I will tell You I ain' t dumb mate. I know a hell of alot about professional cycling. I have been following it for the past twenty five years. _____________________ I will say I know a clean rider when i see one. It could be any one. What the hell would You know. Yes the Guy is obviously 110% CLEAN. so is sylvan chavenel. Daniel Martin. Fabian cancellera. All examples of clean riders. It ain't about liking someone or being a fan of some one. You know a clean rider when You see one. I will not have My intelligence insulted by some____ like Your self . Got that. That is all any one discusses on these forums any way Doping, doping and more Doping Posting thousands of threads about something that is totally irrelevant any how. I bet If there were no doping in Cycling. There would not be many posts about any thing else on these threads if there were no doping. There are riders in the peleton that are 100% clean. There are many of them, there are lots of those who would agree. Now How in the hell is it dumb to say there are riders that are 100 % clean, when there obviously are. I think You should find another forum mate. _______ Talk about a doubting thomas. And to top this all of I have never been called dumb by any individual in My entire life until Your silly post came across My screen, So what does that tell You about Your self. Yes You have alot to learn .

 

[Hugh Januss]

Listen mate I do not like your comment. I will tell You I ain' t dumb mate. I know a hell of alot about professional cycling. I have been following it for the past twenty five years. _________________________ I will say I know a clean rider when i see one. It could be any one. What the hell would You know. Yes the Guy is obviously 110% CLEAN. so is sylvan chavenel. Daniel Martin. Fabian cancellera. All examples of clean riders. It anit about liking someone or being a fan of some one. You know a clean rider when You see one. I will not have My intelligence insulted by some idiot like Your self . Got that.

Good one.

 

[webvan]

Landis looked like he was clean when he bonked on the way up to La Toussuire...