The crank length thread

[coapman]

How does a piece of metal generate power?

On its own it does'nt but like a prosthesis it's part of the power generating system that delivers the chain drive power to the chain ring. This power cannot be generated or applied without it. That's the best I can do.

 

[CoachFergie]

On its own it does'nt but like a prosthesis it's part of the power generating system that delivers the chain drive power to the chain ring. This power cannot be generated or applied without it. That's the best I can do.

If only there was a regular poster who rides with a prosthesis who could comment on how much power it generates.

 

[sittingbison]

okey dokey, enough of the baiting and trolling. I am at the limit of my patience.

I seriously suggest you stop acting like children.

cheers
bison

BTW of course nothing inanimate in the drive train or the crank itself generates power. It transfers power generated by the riders muscles and moving mass to the wheel. But you knew that

 

[CoachFergie]

okey dokey, enough of the baiting and trolling. I am at the limit of my patience.

I seriously suggest you stop acting like children.

cheers
bison

BTW of course nothing inanimate in the drive train or the crank itself generates power. It transfers power generated by the riders muscles and moving mass to the wheel. But you knew that

Goes to motive your Honour!

I knew that but it seems unclear that Noel knows, or understands that. Always helps when making claims to have some good data to back it up with.

 

[sittingbison]

...I knew that but it seems unclear that Noel knows, or understands that....

the bold identifies that you were clearly baiting Noel, so I seriously suggest you have a think about that CoachFergie and how you want to post and interact in future

 

[Oldman]

How does a piece of metal generate power?

It's a tool. A very basic tool. You know...

 

[coapman]

I knew that but it seems unclear that Noel knows,

Of course you did, but I see the crank as an extension of the leg and that's why I can apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c , while you can only apply it at 3 o'c .

 

[hiero2]

On its own it does'nt but like a prosthesis it's part of the power generating system that delivers the chain drive power to the chain ring. This power cannot be generated or applied without it. That's the best I can do.

It's a tool. A very basic tool. You know...

Of course you did, but I see the crank as an extension of the leg and that's why I can apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c , while you can only apply it at 3 o'c .

No. A prosthesis does not generate power. Period. Do not go there. It CAN change how the power that a muscle generates is applied, but it does not generate power. It transmits power. It can SHAPE the power application, but it can not generate power.

It is a tool, and not (generally) a power tool. I know this is becoming less true, as we have entered the age of the $6M $$ Man. In truth. But for our purposes, I think we can agree that the prostheses, and crank arms, that we speak of are unpowered by anything other than human muscle.

Which gets me to coap's comment. WTF are you on about? You can NOT apply maximal torque all around the clock -- unless you are only considering the torque applicable at the specific orientation. Don't go there, unless you are attempting humor. If you are attempting humor, be a bit more obvious. If you are being obtuse - it harms the conversation.

Cheers, y'all.

 

[coapman]

No. A prosthesis does not generate power. Period. Do not go there. It CAN change how the power that a muscle generates is applied, but it does not generate power. It transmits power. It can SHAPE the power application, but it can not generate power.

It is a tool, and not (generally) a power tool. I know this is becoming less true, as we have entered the age of the $6M $$ Man. In truth. But for our purposes, I think we can agree that the prostheses, and crank arms, that we speak of are unpowered by anything other than human muscle.

Which gets me to coap's comment. WTF are you on about? You can NOT apply maximal torque all around the clock -- unless you are only considering the torque applicable at the specific orientation. Don't go there, unless you are attempting humor. If you are attempting humor, be a bit more obvious. If you are being obtuse - it harms the conversation.

Cheers, y'all.

I know a crank or prosthesis cannot generate power but they are part of the power generating system in that the power generating muscles cannot generate the chain drive power without them.
You are correct, you cannot apply maximal torque around the clock but it's possible to apply continuous maximal torque as crank passes through 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c when you know how to make maximal use of your crank, ankle and lower leg.

 

[CoachFergie]

You are correct, you cannot apply maximal torque around the clock but it's possible to apply continuous maximal torque as crank passes through 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c when you know how to make maximal use of your crank, ankle and lower leg.

If this method was superior to other pedalling techniques you would be able to measure it with ANY power meter. Having failed to provide any data in the last 15 or so years would indicate that applying maximal torque through 12-3 = losses in other areas of the pedal stroke.

 

[coapman]

If this method was superior to other pedalling techniques you would be able to measure it with ANY power meter. Having failed to provide any data in the last 15 or so years would indicate that applying maximal torque through 12-3 = losses in other areas of the pedal stroke.

With the back stroke regarded only as a means of getting the crank back to start another power stroke at 11, the only sector left is between 3 and 5 o'c and it would be very difficult to lose power there.

 

[CoachFergie]

With the back stroke regarded only as a means of getting the crank back to start another power stroke at 11, the only sector left is between 3 and 5 o'c and it would be very difficult to lose power there.

If there are no losses then you should be able to easily see a difference in sustainable power or as both Dr Jim Martin and Ric Stern have offered force-vector measuring pedals that measure the actual delivery of power around the pedal stroke.

 

[coapman]

If there are no losses then you should be able to easily see a difference in sustainable power or as both Dr Jim Martin and Ric Stern have offered force-vector measuring pedals that measure the actual delivery of power around the pedal stroke.

As I said before travelling is out for me, that's why I am waiting on BB, i'll have a go at getting them to test the technique even if their PM has not been perfected and ready for market.

 

[sittingbison]

It's a tool. A very basic tool. You know...

I know a crank or prosthesis cannot generate power ...

Great. Now we have this sorted out, lets not get into it again with trolling and baitin please

cheers
bison

 

[hiero2]

I know a crank or prosthesis cannot generate power but they are part of the power generating system in that the power generating muscles cannot generate the chain drive power without them.
You are correct, you cannot apply maximal torque around the clock but it's possible to apply continuous maximal torque as crank passes through 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c when you know how to make maximal use of your crank, ankle and lower leg.

My emphasis. Hmmph. Continuous maximal torque? via proper physical technique? Maximal use of the components? Well, yea, but no.

MAXIMAL torque is a very specific thing. You are weaseling on this point. Yes, you can maximize the torque you apply at each position around the clock. You can not apply MAXIMAL torque in the same fashion.

So, is it possible that you can apply MAXIMAL torque at 12 o'clock? No. You can maximize the torque you apply. And I can see your point - i.e. I think this is what you are trying to say. Ok, I think you are trying to say you can maximize torque via technique, and you can begin applying real torque at the 12 o'clock position. I could agree with that.

You might reply that my understanding is incorrect. I await your reply.

 

[coapman]

My emphasis. Hmmph. Continuous maximal torque? via proper physical technique? Maximal use of the components? Well, yea, but no.

MAXIMAL torque is a very specific thing. You are weaseling on this point. Yes, you can maximize the torque you apply at each position around the clock. You can not apply MAXIMAL torque in the same fashion.

So, is it possible that you can apply MAXIMAL torque at 12 o'clock? No. You can maximize the torque you apply. And I can see your point - i.e. I think this is what you are trying to say. Ok, I think you are trying to say you can maximize torque via technique, and you can begin applying real torque at the 12 o'clock position. I could agree with that.

You might reply that my understanding is incorrect. I await your reply.

What I am saying is, it's possible to apply the same torque at 12, 1, 2 as that which you apply around 3 o'c , which means you no longer have a dead spot sector (11-1 o'c) and wasted force between 1-2 o'c because of reduced tangential effect.

 

[hiero2]

What I am saying is, it's possible to apply the same torque at 12, 1, 2 as that which you apply around 3 o'c , which means you no longer have a dead spot sector (11-1 o'c) and wasted force between 1-2 o'c because of reduced tangential effect.

Possible to apply the same torque @ 12, 1, & 2? I'm not a biomechanic, but I don't think so. We aren't automobiles, where torque is dependent on revs, and balanced across the full revolution of the crankshaft. You can smooth it via training, but you can't equalize it.

 

[CoachFergie]

And in the last 40 years of measuring the amount and direction of forces in the pedal someone would have seen this mythical occurrence. And if it actually contributed to performance could easily be measured with any power meter.

 

[coapman]

And in the last 40 years of measuring the amount and direction of forces in the pedal someone would have seen this mythical occurrence.

Easily explained, you don't stumble across this technique while researching natural pedalling styles, it has to be learned because the difference between natural pedalling styles and this dead spot eliminating technique is like that of throwing a ball underhand and overhand. Back on topic, torque return from the force applied to crank is controlled by tangential effect and length of crank, so why use a shorter crank in time trials when you already have your ideal aero position.

 

[hiero2]

Easily explained, you don't stumble across this technique while researching natural pedalling styles, it has to be learned because the difference between natural pedalling styles and this dead spot eliminating technique is like that of throwing a ball underhand and overhand. Back on topic, torque return from the force applied to crank is controlled by tangential effect and length of crank, so why use a shorter crank in time trials when you already have your ideal aero position.

I see. Ok, then, now I know what category to put your posts in - at least on this topic. Hint: its round.

Cheers!

 

[MarkvW]

I see. Ok, then, now I know what category to put your posts in - at least on this topic. Hint: its round.

Cheers!

Martin & Lewis, Astaire & Rogers. . . FrankDay & Coapman.

 

[coapman]

Possible to apply the same torque @ 12, 1, & 2? I'm not a biomechanic, but I don't think so. We aren't automobiles, where torque is dependent on revs, and balanced across the full revolution of the crankshaft. You can smooth it via training, but you can't equalize it.

It's obvious you are not reading my posts or else are not capable of understanding them because I have already explained how exactly this maximal (3 o'c equivalent) torque can be generated at 12, 1 and 2 o'c. The same muscles are used in exactly the same way as in another sport. It is the chain ring that transfers the generated power to the chain and because you have two cranks, each leg has only to concentrate on 180 deg. of the chain ring or half the crank revolution. With this special technique from each leg you get 90 deg. of maximal torque and highly effective torque from the remaining 90 deg. What do you mean by smoothing ?

 

[elapid]

It's obvious you are not reading my posts or else are not capable of understanding them because I have already explained how exactly this maximal (3 o'c equivalent) torque can be generated at 12, 1 and 2 o'c. The same muscles are used in exactly the same way as in another sport. It is the chain ring that transfers the generated power to the chain and because you have two cranks, each leg has only to concentrate on 180 deg. of the chain ring or half the crank revolution. With this special technique from each leg you get 90 deg. of maximal torque and highly effective torque from the remaining 90 deg. What do you mean by smoothing ?

To be fair, no one really knows what you are talking. Compounding this is your unwillingness to prove your theory with a PM.

 

[FrankDay]

To be fair, no one really knows what you are talking. Compounding this is your unwillingness to prove your theory with a PM.

I know what he is talking about (I think). That having been said, I don't believe for a minute he actually manages to apply forces to the pedals as he thinks he is doing. Until he can prove that he can pedal as he says he pedals (and, sustain it to boot) it is just a bunch or words to me.

That having been said, this discussion belongs in the pedaling technique thread, not the crank length thread.

 

[42x16ss]

A wattbike analysis would confirm everything he's suggesting and more. All he has to do is jump on one and get his technique analysed. Takes all of an hour.