??? Wattbike is nothing more than spinscan isn't it? Confirms nothing regarding technique if that is the case. I am only aware of three current "products" that can confirm his claim, Pioneer PM, iCranks PM, and university research pedals. Edit, I thought of another. The Excalibur Ergometer, which measures individual pedal torques but I have only seen this in Europe and its cost is prohibitive for most.42x16ss said:
- Apr 21, 2009
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42x16ss said:
Analysing if the application of power as Noel claims is of any practical significance can be measured with any power meter. Whether torque can or can't be applied as he claims is irrelevant.
Sorry Fergie, wrong. All a power meter alone can measure is what Noel's current power is. It would be unable to tell if that power was an improvement or anything else since no baseline is known and even if a baseline was known it wouldn't be able to discriminate as to whether any improvement seen was due to a technique change or simply training effect or something else. What is required to confirm Noel's claim is actual measurement of his pedal forces since his claim involves a certain way of applying pedal forces. Is he doing what he says? If he is, then one would want to ask the question as to whether there is any advantage to it and can can a way be devised to do it using legal equipment?CoachFergie said:
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coapman said:
Which does nothing to further your claims. Are you hoping he will bring back the Scott Rake bars
FrankDay said:
If you invented a crank that would enable riders apply maximal torque through 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, would riders buy it. But the standard crank is capable of doing this, only problem is riders don't know how to use it for best results. As for legality, it's the leg muscles that are generating this extra torque not scott rake bars, this technique can be used with any bars as Anquetil proved. Scott Rake bars put the icing on the cake. If Jim Martin got working on the biomechanics of this technique, CF would soon find out what was relevant and what was irrelevant in time trials. Scientists have been searching for this perfect way of pedalling for over 120 years and are now further away from discovering it than when they first started research in 1890.
You are correct, for analysis this technique needs a PM that can measure both used force and wasted force (such as AXIS cranks) around the pedalling circle.
http://axiscranks.com/market-applications/bicycle-cranks/
- Apr 21, 2009
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coapman said:
What you are missing is that the only thing that matters is whether a change in crank length or the way you pedal will improve performance. This can be measured with any power meter. You can either produce more power for a set time or distance or after a period of training can produce more power compared to a group using a normal crank length or conventional pedalling technique.
No Fergie. While you may only be interested in whether performance is improved or not some of us are also interested in knowing why that performance is improved or not because such knowledge may lead to further improvements and enhancements.CoachFergie said:
Coapman's problem is he has never shown he actually does what he says he does. He thinks he is doing something that most think is, essentially, physiologically impossible. When he shows that he can actually do what he thinks he is doing people will pay more attention.
He is like a piano player saying that with his new technique he can play a perfect Mozart concerto but, right now, he is unable to let anyone listen to him do so.
Two other anecdotes. A customer in the UAE has been spending a lot of time working on figuring out best crank length for him. While he has not reached his final determination he is currently leaning on 155mm for his road bike and 132.5 for his TT bike. My understanding is he is 6 ft tall.
Another customer with Vector pedals has gone from 175 to 165 and then to 155. He has been amazed that he has seen a power jump with each drop in crank length (he doesn't want to go shorter because he wants to stay with big name cranks for racing - why we let our equipment limit us for whatever reason baffles me but he is not alone). He has confirmed that the pedals were calibrated for each crank length.
Another customer with Vector pedals has gone from 175 to 165 and then to 155. He has been amazed that he has seen a power jump with each drop in crank length (he doesn't want to go shorter because he wants to stay with big name cranks for racing - why we let our equipment limit us for whatever reason baffles me but he is not alone). He has confirmed that the pedals were calibrated for each crank length.
FrankDay said:
This sounds like someone else...not sure Coapman is alone in believing what he believes by your description.
As George Constanza said: "Jerry...it's not a lie if you believe it"
It is also not a lie if it is true. Guess we will have to wait until we see the definitive evidence before we know for sure which side is "lying" but just believe their lie to be true.Oldman said:
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FrankDay said:
That's a silly argument. Firstly, you have to prove IF there is an improvement in performance. Any PM will be effective in measuring the difference in performance between the two techniques. IF there is, then by all means investigate that further. However, if there is no improvement then what is the need to investigate a technique that does not result in an improvement in performance and even you believe is not possible?
FrankDay said:
Everyone thinks it is physiologically impossible only because like yourself they believe the knee (kicking action) is the only way to apply a forward force at TDC. Do PC's use this same kicking muscle action at TDC, if they do any extra torque application here will be minimal and not worth concentrating on.
elapid said:
Nothing silly about it, the only question that needs answering is, is it possible to replace TDC with maximal torque, if it is, there has to be improvements, for a start you have an extra 10 to 15 min of power application time per hour. That's why you need a top of the range PM like Axis Cranks.
No, what is physiologically impossible, IMHO, is to have an immediate application of maximum torque/force and then to maintain that same maximum torque/force through a semi-circle of the pedal arc despite a constantly changing pedal direction and the need to invoke many different muscles to do so.coapman said:
- Mar 18, 2009
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coapman said:
Nope. The first question is: IS there an improvement? If not, no need to go further. Any old PM is sufficient for this. IF there is an improvement, then investigate further with a PM like the Axis Cranks to actually determine the mechanisms behind this improvement. But you have to first of all be able to document an improvement as a proof of principle. If that proof is not there, then there is no need to continue other than to entertain innane academic musings with no real world relevance.
veganrob said:
It's not the first time this lack of intelligence has been demonstrated by cyclists, G Lemond had to win that Tour de F time trial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQYQ-E&feature=related
before coaches and cyclists would believe an aerodynamic narrow hand/arm position gives an advantage in time trials.
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coapman said:
You are the one making unfounded claims about a better pedalling technique. Prove it is better, which can be done with any power meter, and then those of us with access to the tools to measure the mechanisms and enough subjects to eliminate bias and other variables may take an interest.
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coapman said:
Not true. In 1988 I was beaten into third place at the Canterbury 40km TT Champs by two riders using Triathlon Bars down in little old New Zealand.
There has been innovation all the way through the history of cycling. Sorry it doesn't conform to your narrow mindset.
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coapman said:
Thaks for proving my point. So if Greg Lemond proved that an aerodynamic position gives an advantage, now maybe you can prove that your pedaling technique is an advantage.
Everybody is looking for an edge and you are claiming to have one. There is away to prove it.
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