The doped bike exists (video of pro version)!

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

fair points, blackcat.
but what was he clicking/switching there just before he shoots off. The slowmo shows it clearly.
anyway, as the l'Equipe article also stresses, the rumors (within the peloton and UCI) started back in 2010 with Cancellara.
The rumors were so persistent that UCI started bike testing already at the TDF 2010, using a very expensive (rental) scanner.
(In fact, so expensive that they stopped using it next year. They did continue to check bikes, but using cheaper methods.)

well, matti breschel might be the weak point. or one of the wrenches(mechanics).

hey, where is TexPat. Ask Texpat. send him a personal message.

You see, if there is/was any likelihood of the motor, would Prance not have pursued this. Ofcourse, how does it relate to the particular frame of bike the teams are using each year? How long was Riis on Cervelo?

Are all bikes sufficiently designed with the columbus/dedaccai/reynolds tubing? well, we have moved to alu/carbonfibre for the last ~20 yrs. Are all teams tubing sufficient? top tube or down tube?

where are the weak points in the intelligence/confidentiality? where can you get the holes in the story, or real story from the support team? surely Cancellara if he won on this, could not have SUFFICIENTLY paid off everyone.

It is like 9/11 in terms of, there are sooooo many touchpoints. It would require a paper of repute to be willing to go to the press with something like this. Because the media are usually gatekeepers with stories on Armstrong and the lawyers and injunctions preventing it getting out.

I would be interested in reading the l'Equipe article translated in full if anyone can be so @rsed. ta.

Well as for 9/11 Dr Judy Wood submitted a paper and in-fact is suing the contractors for fraud who NIST used for their fraudulent/ laughable report . The case has been left in limbo even though the judge took it seriously.
As for Fab and his bike,I reckon it would just be him and his mechanic. No one else involved and no one else needing to know.

 

[sniper]

Re:

oh Sniper, and I already wrote in this thread, I thought the way Cancellara went away in Roubaix (not seeing the youtube or watching it for four years), on the asphalt out of the front group of about 20 riders, now, i) I could have misread it, because they all could have been softpedalling at 25miles an hour and ii)when Cancellara flies past them, he was coming from the back of them, and he might have only been at 30mph, and if anyone can look like they are freewheeling/softpedalling, in the saddle, at merely 30mph, it is indeed Spartacus, and iii) if may have looked "worse" because they just let him ride off the front without looking to get in his slipstream. and iv) even tho I thought it looked to easy and Spartacus must be putting out 500watts looking like he is doing a coffee shop soft pedal, he is probably only putting out half of that, and he can do that in the saddle quite easily.

because I am not a cyclist, it could be easy for me to misinterpret that Roubaix clip I saw, where it looked like Cancellera had the afterburners on when he was in the saddle, and looked like he was not au bloc or thumping the pedals. Well, he was not au bloc and had no reason to thump the pedals, but the 20 left in the group just let him ride off.

fair. me too, i aint no cyclist and could well misinterpret the footage.
But therefore commentary by (ex-)pro's becomes all the more relevant/interesting, don't you think?
The rumors inside the peloton that emerged after Flanders and PR tell you exactly what pro's thought about Cancellara's demarrages. They didn't believe it was real.
Also, as I said earlier, Maarten Ducrot (ex-pro and Dutch cycling commentator) said he'd never seen a demarrage like that ever.

edit: agree with Ray J. It may well have been just Cancellara and his mechanic. No need to hypothesize about a major cover-up operation involving multiple bribes etc.

 

[MarkvW]

Who engineered the amazing ultralightweight, ultrasmall, high powered battery powered motor? Inquiring minds want to know!

A motor and power supply that small, with that much power, would be a game-changer for the electric bike industry!

 

[sniper]

Re:

Who engineered the amazing ultralightweight, ultrasmall, high powered battery powered motor? Inquiring minds want to know!

A motor and power supply that small, with that much power, would be a game-changer for the electric bike industry!

if there were such a breakthrough, why not test it first in professional cycling? Advantages:
1. there's money to be made there.
2. nobody will notice if it doesn't work.
3. it might be expensive technology, which guys like Cancellara would have no problem purchasing.

It will only become a gamechanger in the mainstream e-bike industry if it is affordable for people like you and me.

otoh, to be fair, the article lends heavily on anonymous and/or secondary sources.
Somebody with good French and a technical mind should evaluate the plausibility of what is being postulated in the article in terms of technology.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Who engineered the amazing ultralightweight, ultrasmall, high powered battery powered motor? Inquiring minds want to know!

A motor and power supply that small, with that much power, would be a game-changer for the electric bike industry!

There's no breakthrough here. I did a recent search and found several small, geared induction motors that were capable of 5 N.m of torque, which is what is necessary to add 20 Watts. These are off the shelf parts. two 26650 Li-Ion cells would be sufficient for well over half an hour. Only the motor controller would be custom and that really isn't anything exotic or large.

E-bikes are special only in that they require a lot higher power output and need to last a heck of a lot longer than half an hour. They also need to be maintenance free and last for several years. Add onto that a need to hit a very low price point and yeah, the solutions tend to be bulky, heavy and unrefined.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Who engineered the amazing ultralightweight, ultrasmall, high powered battery powered motor? Inquiring minds want to know!

A motor and power supply that small, with that much power, would be a game-changer for the electric bike industry!

There's no breakthrough here. I did a recent search and found several small, geared induction motors that were capable of 5 N.m of torque, which is what is necessary to add 20 Watts. These are off the shelf parts. two 26650 Li-Ion cells would be sufficient for well over half an hour. Only the motor controller would be custom and that really isn't anything exotic or large.

E-bikes are special only in that they require a lot higher power output and need to last a heck of a lot longer than half an hour. They also need to be maintenance free and last for several years. Add onto that a need to hit a very low price point and yeah, the solutions tend to be bulky, heavy and unrefined.

John Swanson

concise yet sensible as always.

according to the article, one way to control the motor is through the cardiometer. You can automize it such that the motor begins to work once the meter surpasses whatever value you've set for it, and stops working again when it drops below that value.
I couldn't gather from the article if such a controlling system could be wireless. What would you say?
The Cancellara footage suggests he was using a more old fashioned controller, some switch in the steering wheel, whether cabled/wired to the motor or wireless, dunno.

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

Who engineered the amazing ultralightweight, ultrasmall, high powered battery powered motor? Inquiring minds want to know!

A motor and power supply that small, with that much power, would be a game-changer for the electric bike industry!

There's no breakthrough here. I did a recent search and found several small, geared induction motors that were capable of 5 N.m of torque, which is what is necessary to add 20 Watts. These are off the shelf parts. two 26650 Li-Ion cells would be sufficient for well over half an hour. Only the motor controller would be custom and that really isn't anything exotic or large.

E-bikes are special only in that they require a lot higher power output and need to last a heck of a lot longer than half an hour. They also need to be maintenance free and last for several years. Add onto that a need to hit a very low price point and yeah, the solutions tend to be bulky, heavy and unrefined.

John Swanson

concise yet sensible as always.

according to the article, one way to control the motor is through the cardiometer. You can automize it such that the motor begins to work once the meter surpasses whatever value you've set for it, and stops working again when it drops below that value.
I couldn't gather from the article if such a controlling system could be wireless. What would you say?
The Cancellara footage suggests he was using a more old fashioned controller, some switch in the steering wheel, whether cabled/wired to the motor or wireless, dunno.

The motor would only be available to supplement human-power, wouldn't it? In other words, you couldn't expect it to generate anything like 300W of power for anything but a worthlessly small burst? Wouldn't you need a rather sophisticated (durable / ultralight) transmission system to make it work?

The energy cost of hauling such a system would outweigh the energy savings of the motor also, wouldn't it? The rider could only use the e-bike in a disposable manner?

 

[Night Rider]

Re: Re:

question for you to make it easier to comprehend how you got trolled: why was hesjedal's front wheel not spinning?

(edit: it also shows Mark and you are jumping into the discussion without actually having read the actual discussion. I noticed this is happening a lot in this thread. Posters too credulous to entertain the thought of motorization coming up with bogus arguments. Go through Ryder's thread or the previous pages of this thread, you'll see Rasmussen's vid (which is the same as the boy's vid) has already been discussed plenty of times. )

The front wheel does spin, not much but it's consistent with the arc the bike takes.

Mark's question was valid and I answered it. Whether it suited the direction you want the discussion to go, or where it came from is irrelevant. The question was important and it's the reason why there was no motor in Ryder's bike. The cranks didn't turn. End of story. If anyone wants to put up a theory of the motor being in the rear hub, then go ahead and show us.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

question for you to make it easier to comprehend how you got trolled: why was hesjedal's front wheel not spinning?

(edit: it also shows Mark and you are jumping into the discussion without actually having read the actual discussion. I noticed this is happening a lot in this thread. Posters too credulous to entertain the thought of motorization coming up with bogus arguments. Go through Ryder's thread or the previous pages of this thread, you'll see Rasmussen's vid (which is the same as the boy's vid) has already been discussed plenty of times. )

The front wheel does spin, not much but it's consistent with the arc the bike takes.

Mark's question was valid and I answered it. Whether it suited the direction you want the discussion to go, or where it came from is irrelevant. The question was important and it's the reason why there was no motor in Ryder's bike. The cranks didn't turn. End of story. If anyone wants to put up a theory of the motor being in the rear hub, then go ahead and show us.

double facepalm.
1. definition of 'to spin': "turn or whirl round quickly."
iow, the front wheel doesn't spin. (clearly it stopped spinning due to the impact, and you'd expect the rear wheel to similarly have lost a lot of spin due to the impact)
2. the cranks don't need to turn (see Cassani's video).

edit: make it a triple: 3. I've said several times above i don't think the vid is proof of Ryder having a motor (i do find it suspect, but that's a matter of taste, i guess). The point has been that A. Rasmussen's rebuttal is pathetic mainly because it doesn't (and cannot) take the impact of the rear wheel into account.

 

[sniper]

this slowmo does a good job showing (a) the friction of the rear wheel against the asphalt when Ryder goes down as well as (b) how Ryder himself provides a significant amount of counterspin whilst still clipped on with his rear wheel already touching the ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0zIOjhNXyA
unfortunately the image is not clear enough to tell for sure if the rear wheel does or does not maintain its spin, but with that kind of contact of the wheel with the asphalt i find it very hard to believe it maintained much spin.
Perhaps it maintained some, but enough to make the bike accellerate and turn like that? Unlikely.

 

[ray j willings]

At least today no one looked motored up.

 

[sniper]

Durianrider's brief review of the Ryder incident:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwXzUwTFMxc

another attempt at imitating the incident here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak7xP8eghog
More realistic attempt imo than the previous two, but obviously again not able to replicate the (imo considerable) impact of the rear wheel with the asphalt.

 

[ray j willings]

Just spotted this
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/

 

[rhubroma]

This perhaps deverves its own thread and I wish I had time to transalte the entire article, but the doped bike is here and it is horrific.

As reported in today's la Gazzetta dello Sport a big insider in the motorized bike industry, who wished to remain anonomous, said that these bikes are being used by pros and amatuers alike, claiming that in the Italian granfondo domain you can count on several riders using them in each race. It's the new EPO he said. A pro only needs 30-70 watts to make a difference, even if the most sophisticated of these motors can generate up to 500 watts (for your lazy Sheik or businessman, who can afford the 20,000 euro cost).

The worst thing is that the UCI has given up on x-ray equipment, which at 60,000 euro per race is too costly it maintains. The same expert said that today's motors are so stealth that even if they took the bike apart they'de never find it, although there would be an easy way to identify whether or not a rider was using one he said. Put a watts measure in the biopassport profile. Thus if a rider on a climb can express max 420 watts sustained, then if he expresses 430 pluss he's using a motor. "That's physics" he said, "which can't be argued with."

I don't know, but man is this sport in poor shape. We will be calling it MotoGP in no time I'm sure. Ryder's spinning crank shaft after the crash in the Vuelta last year? Hello!

The name of the guy who invented this technology 17 years ago is Hungarian Istvan Varjas, though now several companies deal with producing a version of it. An amatuer for about 1,200 euro can set his bike up with one of these motors and, bam, you're ready to go at the next Granfodo. Horay!

Whatever the case, it would be nice if CN did an English report on the Italian article. Just a thought.

 

[Jagartrott]

I'm very interested in these doped bikes, but also a bit sceptical for the simple reason that if a rider gets caught with this, his carreer is over - no-one will accept this, and there's no denial possible. Something that cannot be said when using biological doping, where there's always some doubts whether a rider really doped and where almost everyone screams "there was a mistake - I'm innocent" (and the punishment reflects this uncertainty). So the risk/gain ratio seems still very much tipping to biological doping.

 

[SkyTears]

That would explain why Nibali is *** for 18 months and suddenly wins TDF with 9 minutes while breaking no sweat or open his mouth to breath, and also without being caught by doping tests and passport.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re:

That would explain why Nibali is **** for 18 months and suddenly wins TDF with 9 minutes while breaking no sweat or open his mouth to breath, and also without being caught by doping tests and passport.

Nibali has never in his pro career been **** for 18 months, not even close

 

[neineinei]

http://i.imgur.com/eXo0wfQ.png the gazzetta article

http://bicitruccata.com/index.php?o...=shop.browse&category_id=11&Treeid=1&Itemid=9 "Doped bikes rental" €1 500.00 for a weekend.

 

[hrotha]

I'm highly sceptical of the claim that you can't find them even if you take apart the bike. What is it, magic?

No matter how real this practice might be, I think some people are definitely trying to build up some hype for their own commercial interests.

 

[neineinei]

http://bicitruccata.com/ is the website of Istvan Varjas. Varjas is involved in all the news stories, RAI's story from 2010, L'Equipe's article 2 April and Gazzettas today. And he makes no secret about it. It shouldn't be any problem for NAS to raid his business or put it under surveilance. Anyone with the funds to rent one of his doped bikes could pick it apart. UCI could buy one, pick it apart to know what to look for at the bike controls at the races. Clearly he isn't afraid of any of that. In reality he is catering to the gran fondo riders etc, using this notority: you too can ride like Spartacus, wink wink.

On the website Varjas uses a picture of Cancellara on the history page and the first video on the video page is the famous Cancellara video from 2010. Hint, hint, wink, wink.

 

[blackcat]

the thing is, if it exists, and is being used, and has been used, and some pro's are popped, then there is a chance that the dominoes fall, and if Ryder used, if Cancellara used, if Breschel used, then it is likely to come out. Like Big Mig. what about LEmond, I give him benefit of doubt, cos no one will know on that. But the mechanical doping is more likely to out others who first used, if some are busted.

But, I still think it is worth a shot, I think the benefits outweigh the risks, none of the managers of the sport can risk the sport becoming a laughing stock, so you have a blackmail/poisonpill built in, where your secret/cheating would be protected, but you would be prevented from pursuing this cheating method in future.

 

[blackcat]

wouldn't the peloton get together and beat up a ryder in his hotel after a race if they know he cheated. doping is allowed, but riding a bloody kawasaki? why would the peloton tolderated it? why wouldnt they flick him in a sprint and make him(generic motorbike rider) crash

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

I'm highly sceptical of the claim that you can't find them even if you take apart the bike. What is it, magic?

No matter how real this practice might be, I think some people are definitely trying to build up some hype for their own commercial interests.

Don't kid yourself on this, at least in the sense of not being open to the possibility that the pros are using this stuff. Technology is, not infrequently, a Pandora's Box, all the more so when it comes to sport.

I can definitely attest to the Granfondo scene abuse of this technology, through a bike shop owner and racer. Just some well-off 35-40ish dicks who have time to train and are fit enough to be competative, suddenly have a boost to give them a winning edge

Now if you want to believe that the pros have not touched this, with everything else known, then go right ahead. My scepticism has withered ever since I found out about what is going on in the amateur seen, at least in Italy.

Nobody can say for sure of course, but if there is a way to hide this stuff in the tubing, or crank shaft, making it "invisible" then the sport is f-ucked.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

the thing is, if it exists, and is being used, and has been used, and some pro's are popped, then there is a chance that the dominoes fall, and if Ryder used, if Cancellara used, if Breschel used, then it is likely to come out. Like Big Mig. what about LEmond, I give him benefit of doubt, cos no one will know on that. But the mechanical doping is more likely to out others who first used, if some are busted.

But, I still think it is worth a shot, I think the benefits outweigh the risks, none of the managers of the sport can risk the sport becoming a laughing stock, so you have a blackmail/poisonpill built in, where your secret/cheating would be protected, but you would be prevented from pursuing this cheating method in future.

You make a great point. Who on earth is going to out a rider using a doped bike. Cycling would be finished.
What the fudge would the UCI do if they did find one.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

the thing is, if it exists, and is being used, and has been used, and some pro's are popped, then there is a chance that the dominoes fall, and if Ryder used, if Cancellara used, if Breschel used, then it is likely to come out. Like Big Mig. what about LEmond, I give him benefit of doubt, cos no one will know on that. But the mechanical doping is more likely to out others who first used, if some are busted.

But, I still think it is worth a shot, I think the benefits outweigh the risks, none of the managers of the sport can risk the sport becoming a laughing stock, so you have a blackmail/poisonpill built in, where your secret/cheating would be protected, but you would be prevented from pursuing this cheating method in future.

You make a great point. Who on earth is going to out a rider using a doped bike. Cycling would be finished.
What the fudge would the UCI do if they did find one.

the thing is, Cancellara, if he used, IF, I think there is a small possibility, but I dont believe it yet... if he did use, why the heck would he. With Boonen, when they are on their best oxygen plans (doping), and they have the androgen preparation, they are the best, no one can touch them.

and no one could touch them before motors existed. so this contravenes the argument if it was merely motor doping to begin that made them reach this threshold. No, Cancellara and Boonen merely needed to race to demonstrate their unique abilities.

there is another position, ok, conceding they are so far above the others, who would notice if they add a motor to confirm their superiority? The most prefect camouflage and obfuscation because no one could blink an eyelid.

ok, so some have indeed blinked an eyelid at some performances...

but pros can do omerta for doping, but will they do omerta for motors?