The doped bike exists (video of pro version)!

[Tyre Byter]

Re: Re:

the thing is, if it exists, and is being used, and has been used, and some pro's are popped, then there is a chance that the dominoes fall, and if Ryder used, if Cancellara used, if Breschel used, then it is likely to come out. Like Big Mig. what about LEmond, I give him benefit of doubt, cos no one will know on that. But the mechanical doping is more likely to out others who first used, if some are busted.

But, I still think it is worth a shot, I think the benefits outweigh the risks, none of the managers of the sport can risk the sport becoming a laughing stock, so you have a blackmail/poisonpill built in, where your secret/cheating would be protected, but you would be prevented from pursuing this cheating method in future.

You make a great point. Who on earth is going to out a rider using a doped bike. Cycling would be finished.
What the fudge would the UCI do if they did find one.

Maybe accept some "donation$" including an x-ray machine?

 

[blackcat]

the UCI might have to make their technical division an actual asset to the sport instead of the bureaucratic burden that places some validity in neo-liberalism.

the obvious solution I can see is the teams, the UCI, and the manufacturers partnerig so their frames cannot be transformed and manipulated.

this is quite simple in theory. And, I admit, it would create much more of a bureaucratic burden, but p'raps the most valuable re-insurance the sport could impose on itself.

I assume it must be in the interests of the frame makers to have a successful sport, and not a joke of a sport.

there is a confluence of interests and objectives. Then it just matters about distributing the cost and expenses

 

[hrotha]

The problem with this is that it boils down to "If it exists and is viable, the pros will use it". Well, yeah, probably. But is it viable right now? That's what an interested party and motor seller says.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

The problem with this is that it boils down to "If it exists and is viable, the pros will use it". Well, yeah, probably. But is it viable right now? That's what an interested party and motor seller says.

indeed.

but when i drive around my innercity western place, and see middle-age to veteran commuters on an electric bike, i have a little internal chuckle.

 

[veganrob]

They indeed do exist. Not sure if this had been posted previously.


http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/

 

[Catwhoorg]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-introduces-new-sanctions-against-motorised-doping

Team bans included.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

The problem with this is that it boils down to "If it exists and is viable, the pros will use it". Well, yeah, probably. But is it viable right now? That's what an interested party and motor seller says.

This is the exact quote from the la Gazzetta dello Sport article: "Possono anche fare a pezzi una bici, tanto no lo trovano, anche perchè spesso sono bici che non usano nel finale" ("They can even take a bike apart, but they'll never find anything, also because they often are not the bikes they arrive on at the finish."), one of the biggest experts in the global sector said.

Now he certainly could be making it up as a publicity stunt, however, the sense of inside knowledge that comes across is hard to deny.

If I have learned anything about this sport and doping in this sport over the years, it is that when an Italian tells you what's going on inside the environment (of course we are dealing with an Italian knowledgeable and informed about cycling), you better not just pass it off.

Just sayin.

 

[hrotha]

I know what the article says. I'm saying I don't buy it in those terms.

 

[Catwhoorg]

And my preferred sanction would be rider team and management all gone for good for a 1st mechanical doping offense.

Send the clearest message possible that it will NOT be tolerated in any way shape or form.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

The problem with this is that it boils down to "If it exists and is viable, the pros will use it". Well, yeah, probably. But is it viable right now? That's what an interested party and motor seller says.

This is the exact quote from the la Gazzetta dello Sport article: "Possono anche fare a pezzi una bici, tanto no lo trovano, anche perchè spesso sono bici che non usano nel finale" ("They can even take a bike apart, but they'll never find anything, also because they often are not the bikes they arrive on at the finish."), one of the biggest experts in the global sector said.

Now he certainly could be making it up as a publicity stunt, however, the sense of inside knowledge that comes across is hard to deny.

If I have learned anything about this sport and doping in this sport over the years, it is that when an Italian tells you what's going on inside the environment (of course we are dealing with an Italian knowledgeable and informed about cycling), you better not just pass it off.

Just sayin.

and the 2009 Flanders was it, when Breschel had a mechanic ready to switch out a bike. I know this is conspiratorial, I am not buying it yet, but I dont deny the possibility that spartacus and matti were on something else

re: team bans. This is supposed to be a rule on traditional doping. And apart from Saunier, and Cofidis leaving the tour, and 98 teams leaving in July, no teams en mass have been relegated or banned.

the only instance I know of, was the late90s or early2000s Juve who were turfed from Serie A.

funny that only two dutch guys tested positive (or recognised as tested positive, and not rugsweptundery)

Jap Staam or Jaap Stam and Edgar Davids that was/were

 

[Catwhoorg]

Its harder to show team involved with rider doping, there is going to be some level of wiggle room, but mechanical doping, at the very least the team mechanics are involved

 

[poupou]

A portable Xray system should not be a problem.
Or frames should allow little trap or glass to allow a rapid and esay checking. Motor system should affect magnetic field, so making a different signature for each part of a bike, even for the wheel or the crank system. A such system would be directly usable on the finishing line, or during the race!

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

I know what the article says. I'm saying I don't buy it in those terms.

So you've read it? It also says in Italy there are guys going in to buy frames for bikes that don't fit them in the least, with the implication that the rider for whom it is intended remains anonymous. Such a trick wouldn't surprise me at all, something alla Ricardo Riccò, though who knows if that's the real intention.

Look I'm not saying the guy is credible, because nobody can say for sure, however, so many ways have been used to gain an edge and buck the system that I suppose anything is possible. Whereas certainly at the uncontrolled amateur events these contraptions have and are being used.

At the same time I don't see the UCI doing much to monitor the situation, other than the new heavy sanctions and fines just implemented, which is rather timely don't you think? If the x-ray machines are so easy to get and apply, why has the UCI stopped doing so? Why aren't they being used on all the bikes at every event? The article said this is cost prohibitive, but I wouldn't know.

Bottom line is that they have been developed to be put in race bikes and be used for this purpose. It's perhaps only amount of time before some riders would use them. With all the push toward more technology in the sport, electrical shifters, disc breakes, head radios, etc., how is it not possible that the unscrupulous and unethical world of cycling would have experimented with this latest technology? Granted the technology would need to be ready, though Davide Casani has shown it has reached at least an application point. Given the sport's track record, I wouldn't put this past it. And you'd have to be a fool not to think so.

I think it's safe to assume that while one is skeptical, one should also be vigilant and its probably better to be untrustworthy than trustworthy. If anything the UCI should not be trustworthy and take adequite measures.

 

[blackcat]

Armstrong's wish to have his lifetime ban overturned takes on a whole different context. its now in stark relief

Horner winning Vuelta at 40 or 41? phooey! Armstrong can do the Tour de France when he is 55!

 

[WildspokeJoe]

Re:

And my preferred sanction would be rider team and management all gone for good for a 1st mechanical doping offense.

Send the clearest message possible that it will NOT be tolerated in any way shape or form.

Honestly, when I first heard this story, I thought it was high comedy. Apparently, I was wrong.

But I totally agree. Bring down the hammer so hard on the first offenders (Team, DS, rider and mechanic). Set the precedent that this is a line that can't be crossed. EVER.

Because as soon as one gets away with it, the flood gates will open and the sport is no longer human-powered cycling.

 

[neineinei]

Re: Re:

The problem with this is that it boils down to "If it exists and is viable, the pros will use it". Well, yeah, probably. But is it viable right now? That's what an interested party and motor seller says.

This is the exact quote from the la Gazzetta dello Sport article: "Possono anche fare a pezzi una bici, tanto no lo trovano, anche perchè spesso sono bici che non usano nel finale" ("They can even take a bike apart, but they'll never find anything, also because they often are not the bikes they arrive on at the finish."), one of the biggest experts in the global sector said.

Now he certainly could be making it up as a publicity stunt, however, the sense of inside knowledge that comes across is hard to deny.

If I have learned anything about this sport and doping in this sport over the years, it is that when an Italian tells you what's going on inside the environment (of course we are dealing with an Italian knowledgeable and informed about cycling), you better not just pass it off.

Just sayin.

At Milano-Sanremo UCI controlled 11 bikes each from 3 teams (Tinkoff, Etixx and Trek). This was of course not all bikes of those teams, but more than 1 bike pr rider.

"When UCI inspectors conducted checks on 36 bikes at the end of Milan-San Remo in March, they did not limit their testing to bikes that had been used in the race, but also seized some bikes from team trucks and brought them to be scanned."

Of course if you really want to hide a bike from inspection you can easily do so by not bringing it to the finish, but more times than not it is in the finish you'll need the motor the most, and have the least time to start switching bikes.

I think it is absolutely possible that bikes with motors have been used in the pro peloton. Quite possibly his bikes. I don't believe what he is saying about the motor being so small and well concealed that the bike can be taken apart without the motor being found. Everybody knows where and who he is. UCI, CONI, NAS. They can order a bike from him and take it apart, scan it, ex-ray it, expose it to all kinds of measuring equipment, have Tony Martin ride it in CERNs particle accelerator even (joke). They will find the motor. And then they will know where and what to look for. And he will have killed his golden goose. If what he says is true then telling about it undermines his business with the pro peloton. If he says what he says to make himself interesting for gran fondo riders etc it makes much more sense.

 

[SeriousSam]

What's the reason behind a motor only resulting in a 6 month ban, compared to the two years you get for less enhancing rule breaking?

 

[Catwhoorg]

It does say a minimum of 6 months, so it really is open ended.

 

[Benotti69]

so UCI taking motorised bikes seriously, which means teams have used it, Fabs riding away from everyone and not breaking a sweat, Boonen similar at a Paris Roubaix..........the sport really doesn't have a problem with breaking rules, only getting caught!

 

[blackcat]

Re:

so UCI taking motorised bikes seriously, which means teams have used it, Fabs riding away from everyone and not breaking a sweat, Boonen similar at a Paris Roubaix..........the sport really doesn't have a problem with breaking rules, only getting caught!

Devolder did that too, but that was what? 6,7 years back? 8 years ago. Ofcourse, he had Quickstep riders as anchors in the chasing group.

but other people have gone "long" in the classics and stayed away.

 

[blackcat]

they dont need to check 36 bikes at the end of San Remo.

All you need to check are the guys who get over the poggio in the front, and the sprinters who make it to the finish like Cav, Goss, Greipel, maybe Gilbert, and the new norske superstar Kristof.

no need to go overboard, dont bother with the domestiques. Only a few team leaders. Just go to BetFair or Bet24-7 or PaddyPalin, and take the top10 in the betting.

San Remo is quite easy to check, cos they will need the horsepower for the cipressa and poggio. You might say they can ride underthreashold for the first 230 ks with a motor, then switch out the motor for a clean bike. I dont buy that, if they go the motor route, they use it for the bergs. Even if they will be threatened at the end.

And like Benotti said, the UCI dont want to catch you anyway.

Say Cav won with a motor, and they find it, unless an Italian was second, would they publicise it? Not a chance in hell.

 

[Master50]

Some aspects of detection are easy. check every bike where a rider changed bikes. Check both bikes. That covers the hide it in one bike and use it for an intermediate part of the race scenario.
As for the they are already using this technology and it cannot be detected statements form Gazzetto? the foundation of conspiracy theories is they are unprovable because the conspirators are so clever. that is so likely.

 

[Master50]

If you really want to know where the cutting edge of motor and battery technology is then look at radio controlled airplanes, drones and cars. Also Tools. Tool makers spend more R&D on motor and battery technology than almost anyone because their products depend on these 2 parameters.
Electric powered toys are only possible because of the effect of rare earth magnets on the power outputs. Electric motors are light enough to fly a drone but are there motors powerful enough to aid a racing cyclist. the other aspect is power density or how long will the motor work. How much added load does the rider carry while not in use too.
Clearly 250 watt systems are too big to hide but even a 40 or 50 watt booster has to have a battery and a motor. these 2 items are not so small as to be easy to hide if someone is looking for them. they must contribute to the mass of a bike and just weighing everyones bikes should show differences enough for a longer look. Team abc has 30 bikes that weigh between 15 and 16 pounds, but 2 or 3 are 17. we X-ray those 2 and at least 1 or 2 light bikes and compare.
Noise. any motor makes some noise especially under load. Hiding that adds weight too. Any effective system has a tell. the bike will have something that is distinct to the motors, batteries and controllers that cannot be hidden unless it is vapour ware. I am not impressed with the so called secret systems that can spin your wheel on a work stand but add nothing real. 4 watts is 1% of a riders output and frankly that would not overcome its own inertia. 40 watts might be %10 of a riders output and that cannot be hidden from a bike mechanic that assembles bikes for walmart.
Riders that change bikes without also having a cause are already noticed. I can tell you that at the worlds in Hamilton. Oscar Friere changed his bikes twice for example. It was reported once by me and the finish judge verified he crossed the line 2 times without the transponder reporting. we looked at photo finish to verify he did cross the line every lap until he took his first bike back.
Add to this, a lot of commissaires are gear heads too. Again this is not proof only that as a conspiracy this just seems a bit too much to give credibility.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

I would not doubt this for a second

Think of a long classics race - somewhere in the race the heat will be on and not just at the finish.
You are riding a bike with a motor in the body which is linked to your heart rate monitor - as stated in the articles these motors kick in when a rider hits a certain heart rate and will switch off again once the heart rate comes back down.
Now for a normal cyclist this is great but for a finely tuned athlete that knows exactly what his Vo2 max is and how long he can maintain over threshold power outputs this is pure gold.
For the majority of the race you have a system that will guarantee that when the going gets a bit hairy or hard, your heart rate will not max out, ergo you do not start to burn glycogen and therefore are fresher for longer into the race with more energy stores.
Given the requirement to have those energy stores in the last 20, 10 or 5 km of a classic to attack or chase down attacks this suddenly becomes a huge advantage in the latter stages.
You would not need a huge output either a 20 - 40 watt input from a motor to keep give you a boost up to say 360 watts while your heart beats as if you are riding at 320 watts would be a big enough advantage while everyone around you is going into the red and eating up glycogen they cannot replace during the race.

Equally it may not necessarily be the leaders who have the motor, a domestique or two who have an extra boost during PR that can use it to keep the leader at the front on the run in to the Aranberg or one of the major sections of cobbles would be a huge advantage and reduce risk of crashing or getting caught.
Having one or two minor riders with you into the final stages to keep the pressure on and drive the lead group would also be an advantage to a team so it may be used on the lesser riders in order to give the team a numerical advantage for their leader.

The strategy and tactics for this type of device are numerous and would be definitely worth the risk.

At least they were while the team would be able to cut the rider loose and throw them under the bus as they do with the PED regimes, "It was a solo strategy and the team were not involved"
Now however with the UCI rules; the teams can't do that so it will be interesting to see if the risk outweighs the potential reward.

 

[ray j willings]

The UCI are going to have to tag the spare bikes and check them pre race. That way they can only ride the checked bikes. But every single bike will need to be checked. I'll do it for a fee. OOOOPS and then I get offered a few extra pounds to not check a bike so the problem does not go away.
Money will always find a way to cheat.
Is cycling more like F1 than we think