The doped bike exists (video of pro version)!

[Dear Wiggo]

I would think lighter rims are better for stability - see segways etc. As long as they are strong enough and don't squirrel?

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

hitch. why do you think that bikeswitch footage was posted on youtube? not because it wasn't awkward.
read the secret pro on the matter and get back to me on that (in the link veganrob just posted)
and if the bikeswitch happened in isolation, no problem, but it didn't.
It's the combination of things that happened during that race that makes (imo) a good the case for motorization, not each thing in isolation.
so what's your view on Canc's button clicking? it's pretty clearly visible especially in RvV footage, exactly before he jumps away in alien fashion. You've ignored it thus far.

What button. The poor quality vids show him moving his hands, not button.

Why was the bikeswitch footage posted on youtube? Umm I don't know. You tell me. Why is it being posted on youtube relevant. What the person filming was in on the conspiracy and this was their way to reveal the conspiracy to the world?

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

hitch. why do you think that bikeswitch footage was posted on youtube? not because it wasn't awkward.
read the secret pro on the matter and get back to me on that (in the link veganrob just posted)
and if the bikeswitch happened in isolation, no problem, but it didn't.
It's the combination of things that happened during that race that makes (imo) a good the case for motorization, not each thing in isolation.
so what's your view on Canc's button clicking? it's pretty clearly visible especially in RvV footage, exactly before he jumps away in alien fashion. You've ignored it thus far.

What button. The poor quality vids show him moving his hands, not button.

Why was the bikeswitch footage posted on youtube? Umm I don't know. You tell me. Why is it being posted on youtube relevant. What the person filming was in on the conspiracy and this was their way to reveal the conspiracy to the world?

Lance's interns are peddling this conspiracy to distract us from the Truth.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

yes no Dave.

It is the Skil or Argon rider with the Australian fiance innit? The Dutch rider, is the secret pro.

ok, my take on this.

Could be Wade or the editor of CyclingTips asked him to give us something, we need clickbait, we need hits.
chance this being the case? I think material chance, he was prompted by the editor or Wade.

However, devil's advocate would be, this had gone thru the peloton (THE DISCUSSION), they wont even need pillowtalk, the peloton talks when on asphalt hot pour tarmac and lime, and at a coffee rendevous. They talk!

So this has passed thru the informal arbiter and consensus impimatur. Usually one would hear some platitude of denial and indignance. But, we could read into said denial, different motives, just like we could read into the "motor subject invocation" with alternate motivation. We can't know where the motive lies.

But I think this has a degree of validity, but I am just not sure how much validity I should put in his CT piece.

Yup, probably a great coffee conspiracy with a lot of laughter.

Something to generate clicks, or as Mark has it:

...

Lance's interns are peddling this conspiracy to distract us from the Truth.

which is way more believable than mechanics behaving oddly.

Dave.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

yes no Dave.

It is the Skil or Argon rider with the Australian fiance innit? The Dutch rider, is the secret pro.

ok, my take on this.

Could be Wade or the editor of CyclingTips asked him to give us something, we need clickbait, we need hits.
chance this being the case? I think material chance, he was prompted by the editor or Wade.

However, devil's advocate would be, this had gone thru the peloton (THE DISCUSSION), they wont even need pillowtalk, the peloton talks when on asphalt hot pour tarmac and lime, and at a coffee rendevous. They talk!

So this has passed thru the informal arbiter and consensus impimatur. Usually one would hear some platitude of denial and indignance. But, we could read into said denial, different motives, just like we could read into the "motor subject invocation" with alternate motivation. We can't know where the motive lies.

But I think this has a degree of validity, but I am just not sure how much validity I should put in his CT piece.

Yup, probably a great coffee conspiracy with a lot of laughter.

Something to generate clicks, or as Mark has it:

...

Lance's interns are peddling this conspiracy to distract us from the Truth.

which is way more believable than mechanics behaving oddly.

Dave.

I'll give you a million dollars (John based currency backed by wet noodles) if you can show me a similar seated acceleration on cobbles. Cancellara just hit the throttle and went Vrrrrroooom!

John Swanson

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

hitch. why do you think that bikeswitch footage was posted on youtube? not because it wasn't awkward.
read the secret pro on the matter and get back to me on that (in the link veganrob just posted)
and if the bikeswitch happened in isolation, no problem, but it didn't.
It's the combination of things that happened during that race that makes (imo) a good the case for motorization, not each thing in isolation.
so what's your view on Canc's button clicking? it's pretty clearly visible especially in RvV footage, exactly before he jumps away in alien fashion. You've ignored it thus far.

What button. The poor quality vids show him moving his hands, not button.

Why was the bikeswitch footage posted on youtube? Umm I don't know. You tell me. Why is it being posted on youtube relevant. What the person filming was in on the conspiracy and this was their way to reveal the conspiracy to the world?

Fab makes the exact same hand movement " button" when he drops Boonen.
That's just a coincidence ?
He his pressing a butting or switch then BOOOOOOOM he's gone.
Boonen his out of his seat FFS and Fab just rides away sitting down up hill

Like I said before, since the UCI have tested for motors has Fab shown that kind of form?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

hitch. why do you think that bikeswitch footage was posted on youtube? not because it wasn't awkward.
read the secret pro on the matter and get back to me on that (in the link veganrob just posted)
and if the bikeswitch happened in isolation, no problem, but it didn't.
It's the combination of things that happened during that race that makes (imo) a good the case for motorization, not each thing in isolation.
so what's your view on Canc's button clicking? it's pretty clearly visible especially in RvV footage, exactly before he jumps away in alien fashion. You've ignored it thus far.

What button. The poor quality vids show him moving his hands, not button.

Why was the bikeswitch footage posted on youtube? Umm I don't know. You tell me. Why is it being posted on youtube relevant. What the person filming was in on the conspiracy and this was their way to reveal the conspiracy to the world?

Fab makes the exact same hand movement " button" when he drops Boonen.
That's just a coincidence ?
He his pressing a butting or switch then BOOOOOOOM he's gone.
Boonen his out of his seat FFS and Fab just rides away sitting down up hill

Like I said before, since the UCI have tested for motors has Fab shown that kind of form?

that kind of form? perhaps (it's subject to discussion i guess), but such demarrages? not that i know of.
as scienceiscool says, those were million-dollar demarrages. Good luck to MarkvW/D-queued/Hitch finding similar footage of similar demarrages.
you yourself hit the nail on the head saying that "acceleration + cadence and gear choice does not look real". It's pretty obvious to most, just not to a handful of posters.
Doubting the motorization hypothesis is one thing (I'm not 100% convinced myself), but calling this a conspiracy theory is plain stupid in light of the fact that even the UCI takes the rumors of motorization seriously even though from a PR pov they'd be better off ignoring/laughing it off all together.

We should praise that handful of posters for admitting they need a new pair of glasses, but other than that, what they do is 'addressing' (mostly it's just failed attempts at ridiculizing) the evidence in isolation, which is not going to be very fruitful in any kind of context, and especially not in this case.
Of course somebody messing around on one's steering wheel isn't suspect in isolation. If you look at the timing however (exactly prior to those alien jumps), it's a different story.
And of course a bike change isn't suspect in isolation. But again, considering his alien jump in the same race , it becomes suspect. Then you add the rumors from within the peloton >>> more suspect still.

Considering how many people both outside and within the peloton (including ex-pro's) found Cancellara's jumps+bikechange+clicking to be suspect and how many take motorization as a serious threat (including UCI), the only conspiracy theory i see here is the attempt at trivializing the evidence.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

I'll give you a million dollars (John based currency backed by wet noodles) if you can show me a similar seated acceleration on cobbles. Cancellara just hit the throttle and went Vrrrrroooom!

John Swanson

Seriously?

How about if I do it? How much will you give me?

You are judging 'relative' acceleration from a bad and uncalibrated video where you have no idea what the speed was, how the other guy's speed changed (e.g. did it decrease?) nor anything else.

Do you have a normalized video feed (i.e. at 90 degrees) of Spartacus accelerating in that event as compared to a controlled environment/normal situation?

No. So, obviously there is no control nor reliable data for your assertion.

How fast do you think he was going pre/post? Be honest here. You have absolutely NO idea, and it would be hilarious to hear you claim otherwise. Let's just go out on a limb and call anything you might state as almost certainly indefensible.

How many real watts do you think could be delivered by a motor and small battery hidden inside a seat tube? Let's go crazy and call it net 100 watts (after allowing for extra weight, etc.), just for argument. Now that is what, less than a 10% potential enhancement at best, assuming that Spartacus can give us at least 1,000 watts?

And, your untrained and uncalibrated eye perceived, what, a 2-4x acceleration enhancement?

Add in wind drag, and what kind of power would your motor need to generate to achieve your imaginings?

Judging from years of experience with multiple power meters, my peak and 10-15s sprint power is probably +/- 100 watts depending on specific conditions (e.g. fatigue, cadence, etc.), and I would imagine Cancellera might have a similar experience and that he should have at least the same Pmax capability. Thus, even normal cyclists (unlike those that are probably doped) can generate short-term power with a statistical variation that would cover artificial enhancement from any practical motor implementation (setting aside the extremely low possibility of such a design actually working, being implemented, or being applied).

Science may be cool, but your bet is foolish and unscientific.

In fact, I would bet you that this grey-haired old fart could pull off a similar acceleration. And, I would be willing to demonstrate for a big discount on your $1 million offer.

Dave.

 

[ray j willings]

The word conspiracy is mostly used in a derogatory way to put down the opinion of someone with an opposing view.
It's like when someone accuses you of getting all your information from the internet. Its just stupid and hypocritical and IMO only proves that you cannot answer the point/points being made.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

Considering how many people both outside and within the peloton (including ex-pro's) found Cancellara's jumps+bikechange+clicking to be suspect and how many take motorization as a serious threat (including UCI), the only conspiracy theory i see here is the attempt at trivializing the evidence.

With a trivial amount of anecdotal and uncalibrated evidence, one doesn't need any conspiracies to dismiss wild assertions that can only be supported by Rube Goldbergian imaginings.

Dave.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

...

I'll give you a million dollars (John based currency backed by wet noodles) if you can show me a similar seated acceleration on cobbles. Cancellara just hit the throttle and went Vrrrrroooom!

John Swanson

Seriously?

How about if I do it? How much will you give me?

You are judging 'relative' acceleration from a bad and uncalibrated video where you have no idea what the speed was, how the other guy's speed changed (e.g. did it decrease?) nor anything else.

Do you have a normalized video feed (i.e. at 90 degrees) of Spartacus accelerating in that event as compared to a controlled environment/normal situation?

No. So, obviously there is no control nor reliable data for your assertion.

How fast do you think he was going pre/post? Be honest here. You have absolutely NO idea, and it would be hilarious to hear you claim otherwise. Let's just go out on a limb and call anything you might state as almost certainly indefensible.

How many real watts do you think could be delivered by a motor and small battery hidden inside a seat tube? Let's go crazy and call it net 100 watts (after allowing for extra weight, etc.), just for argument. Now that is what, less than a 10% potential enhancement at best, assuming that Spartacus can give us at least 1,000 watts?

And, your untrained and uncalibrated eye perceived, what, a 2-4x acceleration enhancement?

Add in wind drag, and what kind of power would your motor need to generate to achieve your imaginings?

Judging from years of experience with multiple power meters, my peak and 10-15s sprint power is probably +/- 100 watts depending on specific conditions (e.g. fatigue, cadence, etc.), and I would imagine Cancellera might have a similar experience and that he should have at least the same Pmax capability. Thus, even normal cyclists (unlike those that are probably doped) can generate short-term power with a statistical variation that would cover artificial enhancement from any practical motor implementation (setting aside the extremely low possibility of such a design actually working, being implemented, or being applied).

Science may be cool, but your bet is foolish and unscientific.

In fact, I would bet you that this grey-haired old fart could pull off a similar acceleration. And, I would be willing to demonstrate for a big discount on your $1 million offer.

Dave.

How are you going to exactly recreate that scenario.
Can you tell how fast they are going?
I tell you what I do know from experience and a person who goes out riding/training most days of the week.
The Fab acceleration's are way beyond normal. Look at his leg cadence and look at the other riders.
Like at the distance he puts into them and keeps going. This is against some of the top pro riders in the world.
You are saying that you could drop those pro riders like that?
If your saying you can accelerate so can I and the gap you/me would get would be dependent on the speed of the other riders.
That's a whole different ball game.
There is no way that if pro riders can't match that acceleration of Fab or Boonen cannot match the seated Fab attack and you say you can .....

 

[sniper]

with all due respect, d-queued, you're all over the place here sounding like an armstrong / wiggins / froome fan: no positive test, so probably clean.
tell me what you see when you look at the footage.
simple exercise.
and it's not about calibrated evidence. It's about using your real world experience and applying it to that bit of footage.
that's all there is to it: it looks mightily odd both to the trained (casani, boogerd, rasmussen, ducrot, belgian commentators) and what you'd call untrained eye (me and several other anonymous internet wankers) and it turns suspect in combination with the rumors of motorization.
not sure how you can argue against that.
and since when do you need calibrated evidence to form an opinion? Is Sky doping? Nah, no calibrated evidence.

 

[Chipist]

It should be possible to calculate the acceleration, you should be able to get the frames per second of the video, the info is in the video header. If there is somebody who can physically get to the exact road to do some measurements then you can work out speeds etc with a tolerance related to the frames per second.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

But you're not. You're descending on a 70-80 kg system. As long as the tyre pressure and wheel rigidity is set up right, and the frame is stiff enough yet veritcally compliant (nah just kidding) you are descending at 80kg, no 5kg.

I aint stupid, this is obvious.

but you are incorrect and Boardman is wrong, it is the centre of gravity. ask Fabian if he wants to descend the 5kg bike v the 7.5kg bike.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

But you're not. You're descending on a 70-80 kg system. As long as the tyre pressure and wheel rigidity is set up right, and the frame is stiff enough yet veritcally compliant (nah just kidding) you are descending at 80kg, no 5kg.

I aint stupid, this is obvious.

but yo are incorrect and Boardman is wrong, it is the centre of gravity. ask Fabian if he wants to descend the 5kg bike v the 7.5kg bike.

If your outside leg is down, and your weight is on that foot, your CoG is somewhere towards the pedal.

How about you ask fabian for me?

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

with all due respect, d-queued, you're all over the place here sounding like an armstrong / wiggins / froome fan: no positive test, so probably clean.
tell me what you see when you look at the footage.
simple exercise.
and it's not about calibrated evidence. It's about using your real world experience and applying it to that bit of footage.
that's all there is to it: it looks mightily odd both to the trained (casani, boogerd, rasmussen, ducrot, belgian commentators) and what you'd call untrained eye (me and several other anonymous internet wankers) and it turns suspect in combination with the rumors of motorization.
not sure how you can argue against that.
and since when do you need calibrated evidence to form an opinion? Is Sky doping? Nah, no calibrated evidence.

Umm, when did Casani say anything about Cancellara having a motor?

 

[sniper]

slow and difficult discussion with you hitch. you're firing left and right in the hope of hitting something (or someone) apparently without having really followed the thread and the the links contained in it. it's not nice to continuously have to repeat arguments and repost links just to make up for your laziness.
you're also showing a continuous unwillingness to address the arguments, coming up with deflections and/or arguing semantics. sigh.

 

[MarkvW]

Is everybody in the peloton using the motor bike technology?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Is everybody in the peloton using the motor bike technology?

Is everyone in the thread using strawman arguments?

 

[sniper]

lol, must see.
Cancellara 'explaining' his seated Mur accelleration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TnXBP8VCH0
#allovertheplace

 

[sniper]

btw, Lefevere was pretty skeptic about Cancellara's win back in 2010:

But others were not so sure. Jean-René Bernaudeau, a former top rider who is now director of the Bouygues Télécom team, the idea could not be ruled out.
“It must be tempting for people who do not hesitate to change their blood to snatch glory from their rivals,” he told France Info radio. Boonen’s Quick Step team manager Patrick Lefevere called on the UCI to investigate the claims fully. "I was a bit circumspect watching the clip. But if we imagine it’s true, it’s daylight robbery. It’s worse than (performance-enhancing) drugs. "I don’t want to get involved in all these rumours and I’m trying not to get paranoid. But after seeing this video I hope the UCI are going to fully investigate.”
The UCI banned battery-operated engines 2005 but intends to amend the rules again as a new generation of solar-powered devices hits the market.
“It is clear we will have to speed up our research to find a way of scanning the bikes,” said Jean Wauthier, UCI’s technical chief.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/7798626/Fabian-Cancellara-denies-using-a-motorised-bike-to-win-races-in-the-spring.html

and if that's what he says to the press (with lible issues glooming), you can be sure he really was pretty suspicious.

which reminds me, I asked this before and am still curious:
The maker of the youtube clip is not anonymous and it's a hell of an accusation against Cancellara (and source of all the rumors). Let's imagine Cancellara wasn't using a motor: why hasn't he undertaken legal action to get the video removed? MarkVW, as a lawyer maybe you can shed your light on that? Would that be legally difficult? More pain than gain?

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

If your outside leg is down, and your weight is on that foot, your CoG is somewhere towards the pedal.

How about you ask fabian for me?

what? when you put a knee down and take a bend at 75kmph on the downhill, your bodyweight's centre of gravity is not over the wheel or the tyre.

Ask Fabian when he puts the knee down on a descent, or il Falco Savoldelli, and ask my reference, Chris Boardman. the lower the weight of the bike, will detract from stability. Just like the weight in the moving parts of the bike like the rims and the cranks, effectively has more practical weight effect.

and when I used CoG, it was not tecnically technically correct, it was more metaphorical. Ideed, a heavier bike and the same weight in the crank/rim, the CoG of the bike, the effective CoG, would actually be higher! But this is counter-intuitive, a heavier bike going downhill the speed that Savoldelli won that Giro in about 2004, you cant win the Giro by descending if your bike only weights 5kg.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

slow and difficult discussion with you hitch. you're firing left and right in the hope of hitting something (or someone) apparently without having really followed the thread and the the links contained in it. it's not nice to continuously have to repeat arguments and repost links just to make up for your laziness.
you're also showing a continuous unwillingness to address the arguments, coming up with deflections and/or arguing semantics. sigh.

That doesn't answer the question. You claimed Cancellaras accelerations looked odd to Cassini. I'm asking where you heard that. The above post looks an awful lot like someone dodging an uncomfortable question.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

slow and difficult discussion with you hitch. you're firing left and right in the hope of hitting something (or someone) apparently without having really followed the thread and the the links contained in it. it's not nice to continuously have to repeat arguments and repost links just to make up for your laziness.
you're also showing a continuous unwillingness to address the arguments, coming up with deflections and/or arguing semantics. sigh.

+1
Cloud the isuue + Never reply to a point that cannot he cannot explain with a straight forward reply + Snide remarks and digs+ Never apologise even when makes false accusation's + Diversion of a subject if it's not going his way = Hitch

Still waiting for apology Hitch. You could not even do that.
False accusation= apology.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

slow and difficult discussion with you hitch. you're firing left and right in the hope of hitting something (or someone) apparently without having really followed the thread and the the links contained in it. it's not nice to continuously have to repeat arguments and repost links just to make up for your laziness.
you're also showing a continuous unwillingness to address the arguments, coming up with deflections and/or arguing semantics. sigh.

That doesn't answer the question. You claimed Cancellaras accelerations looked odd to Cassini. I'm asking where you heard that. The above post looks an awful lot like someone dodging an uncomfortable question.

that's because you questioned me about something I never said.
oh well. Am getting used to you putting words in my mouth.

Ow, and Cassani had what exactly to do with the point I made? indeed, zero. Maybe you were uncomfy with the argument and decided to deflect away from it? more generally, you seem uncomfortable with several of the points that have been raised.
some cases in point.

hitch: The poor quality vids show him moving his hands, not button.

lol, that's you either trolling, in need of new glasses, or too lazy to actually watch the vid till the end. your pick.

hitch: I don't remember seeing anyone take that video seriously.

lol. the whole thread is interlaced with people (pro's, expros, commentators, anonymous internet wankers) taking the vid serious. Again it's either you trolling (but you wouldn't, now would you) or just too lazy to read the thread, or bad memory, your pick.
bottom line: you're using strawman arguments in ways remarkably similar to what you - rightly and always eloquently - accuse Sky/Lance fans of on a daily basis. Why? you tell me.