The doped bike exists (video of pro version)!

[sniper]

Re: Re:

slow and difficult discussion with you hitch. you're firing left and right in the hope of hitting something (or someone) apparently without having really followed the thread and the the links contained in it. it's not nice to continuously have to repeat arguments and repost links just to make up for your laziness.
you're also showing a continuous unwillingness to address the arguments, coming up with deflections and/or arguing semantics. sigh.

+1
Cloud the isuue + Never reply to a point that cannot he cannot explain with a straight forward reply + Snide remarks and digs+ Never apologise even when makes false accusation's + Diversion of a subject if it's not going his way = Hitch

yeah, agreed (well in this thread in any case).

on a side (well, actually on topic), wanted to ask you (or anybody) whether we can really discard that Cancellara wasn't clicking an electronic gear shifter?
Weren't they (Shimano/Giant) experimenting with it back then?

My thought is that if it had been an electronic gearshifter, Cancellara would have shown it to the world, if only to silence the rumors of motorization. But can we discard it on other grounds as well?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Do we know who the component sponsor was? The brifters tend to have the shifting switches, and then there's a satellite switch also - typically installed near the handlebar stem. Is that where he moves his hand?

The action is a press as for a button. I tend to have my hands on the tops of the handlebars, and just press it with my thumb. It's more useful for climbing where your hands are already in that position and you do not have to move them. It seems unlikely if his hands were in the drops that he would move them to the top to change gear. Only reason there would be if it was broken, however the satellite plugs into the brifters, so yeah not buying that scenario.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Video says SRAM?

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

that's because you questioned me about something I never said.

it looks mightily odd both to the trained (casani, boogerd, rasmussen, ducrot, belgian commentators) and what you'd call untrained eye (me and several other anonymous internet wankers) and it turns suspect in combination with the rumors of motorization. .

Again. What did Cassani say? What is your above claim that it looked odd to Cassani based on?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

that's because you questioned me about something I never said.

it looks mightily odd both to the trained (casani, boogerd, rasmussen, ducrot, belgian commentators) and what you'd call untrained eye (me and several other anonymous internet wankers) and it turns suspect in combination with the rumors of motorization. .

Again. What did Cassani say? What is your above claim that it looked odd to Cassani based on?

You're dodging.
Again, what's your view of the clicking incident? No clicking?
And Cancellara 2010 footage, still not remembering anybody taking the vid seriously?
What about the cadence, which doesn't increase even though his speed increases when jumping away, or the seated accelleration at Flanders without increased cadence, which even he himself can't explain (see link i posted). All normal? Bad video quality? Did you watch the vids at all? (I asked you a coupla times but you don't answer.)
Those are open issues (urgent issues) that you're still to address. Take your time. I'll take your (slightly less urgent, if not totally irrelevant) question afterwards if you don't mind.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

that's because you questioned me about something I never said.

it looks mightily odd both to the trained (casani, boogerd, rasmussen, ducrot, belgian commentators) and what you'd call untrained eye (me and several other anonymous internet wankers) and it turns suspect in combination with the rumors of motorization. .

Again. What did Cassani say? What is your above claim that it looked odd to Cassani based on?

You're dodging.
Again, what's your view of the clicking incident? No clicking?
And Cancellara 2010 footage, still not remembering anybody taking the vid seriously?
What about the cadence, which doesn't increase even though his speed increases when jumping away, or the seated accelleration at Flanders without increased cadence, which even he himself can't explain (see link i posted). All normal? Bad video quality? Did you watch the vids at all? (I asked you a coupla times but you don't answer.)
Those are open issues (urgent issues) that you're still to address. Take your time. I'll take your (slightly less urgent, if not totally irrelevant) question afterwards if you don't mind.

Clicking?

You mean is he clicking on something in the video? I don't know I can't tell.

Cadence

- I have no idea. Maybe you have a point, my knowledge of pedaling mechanics is extremely low and I have never commented on the issue. So maybe that is telling, I don't know.
I certainly would like to hear the opinions of well posters with experience riding high level races. If 42x16ss for example backs you up, youve got me half way.

And Cancellara 2010 footage, still not remembering anybody taking the vid seriously?

I don't. And from what I can tell a lot of the guys you are suggesting took it seriously merely commented on the possibility of motors being used, and didn't ever say that Cancellara is using a motor.
In fact the biggest agreement I remember was on the point that these bikes would be FAR better used early in the race to save energy, rather than right at the end in front of the worlds cameras to drop someone. Which is one of the main reasons I doubt Cancellara used it in PR and RVV 2010 exactly at the point the youtube vids show him moving his hand.

-----

Now as for Cassani, don't worry, you don't have to answer it. We both know if Cassani had actually ever accused Cancellara you would have come up with a link 2 seconds after I questioned it, rather than spent 3 posts desperately trying to change the subject.

The point I was getting at was that its very telling to me that you would include something so obviously not true in your post, without even bothering to go over your post and fact check it.

Its always important to look at any argument you hold from other side. I can certainly consider the other side of - did Cancellara bike dope. Its by no means certain he didn't. The arguments being made to back this up however are full of holes, especially the one about how he allegedly never reached that level again which isn't close to being true ( a far more rational argument would be to say that he continued to be good because he found a way to get around the UCI motor tests just like dopers get though the UCI doping tests).

You don't seem to do this. A couple of lines into one of your posts and I already see something everyone knows is not true, included as evidence.

How can you not fact check your own posts? Your willingness to include absolutely anything that you can convince yourself backs up your point, no matter how weak is very telling to me.

My beef with you btw if you look back stems not from you saying it is probable that Cancellara bike doped, but presenting it as a certainty.
In my eyes its possible (though unlikely since the motor is better used early in the race not towards the end).

You have not come close to proving it as a certainty.

 

[sniper]

i never said cassani accused cancellara, so indeed i'm not worried
it was you twisting my words, so what question was there to answer?
otherwise fair post, not dodging for a change. will address some issues later.

 

[sniper]

as for cassani, i don't know what he did or didn't say, i didn't see the live program (only as part of that youtube collage). I've looked but can't find a link to the program.
I do know several (serious) newspapers and blogs cite Cassani as having accused Cancellara, which is what i based my post on.
but i'm checking the links now and admittedly those reports from what I can tell seem to be based entirely on that youtube clip. So now the question is did Cassani have anything to do with the making of that clip? Not that I know, but I should check. If not, you could have a point there. But stop accusing me of intentionally fabricating arguments, if I draw my info from newspapers.
pot/kettle.
On a side, even if Cassani didn't explicitly accuse Cancellara (which you don't seem to know either), do note that tv program was aired early June 2010 (i think during or shortly after the Giro), i.e. in the wake of those two Cancellara performances. Again, I should see the whole program to know if any indirect insinuations were made towards Cancellara. Also, have never after heard Cassani come out in defense of Cance. Have you?
All that said, regardless of Cassani, the fact remains that plenty of reasonable people including expro's have taken the youtube vid pretty seriously, which was my point in response to your awkward claim that nobody has taken the vid seriously. Let me here add Lefevere ("That movie made me suspicious.”http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lefevere-takes-mechanical-doping-seriously).

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

jezus christ, hitch.
I never said cancellara never reached similar form.
that was another poster, ffs.
i did, however, say i've never seen him make similar jumps afterwards, and, well, have you?
anyway, stop putting words in my mouth / twisting my words.
you're in the mod thread accusing others of trolling. Fine, then give proper example.

p.s. I know you have beef with me (why i don't know but it's obvious), but show some balls and take it to p.m. rather than clogging this thread with pointless deflections.

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

with all due respect, d-queued, you're all over the place here sounding like an armstrong / wiggins / froome fan: no positive test, so probably clean.
tell me what you see when you look at the footage.
simple exercise.
and it's not about calibrated evidence. It's about using your real world experience and applying it to that bit of footage.
that's all there is to it: it looks mightily odd both to the trained (casani, boogerd, rasmussen, ducrot, belgian commentators) and what you'd call untrained eye (me and several other anonymous internet wankers) and it turns suspect in combination with the rumors of motorization.
not sure how you can argue against that.
and since when do you need calibrated evidence to form an opinion? Is Sky doping? Nah, no calibrated evidence.

what he said:

It should be possible to calculate the acceleration, you should be able to get the frames per second of the video, the info is in the video header. If there is somebody who can physically get to the exact road to do some measurements then you can work out speeds etc with a tolerance related to the frames per second.

In other words, to my eye I am looking at a small portion of a race from a disadvantageous vantage point with the riders moving away, and through the lens of someone else's camera that has provided a poor quality video image.

Seeing riders accelerate past other riders is pretty common. It may be novel to you, but seeing them do that seated is also pretty common. Have you ever been to the track? Allegedly track sprinters have very strong accelerations while seated. Allegedly.

You may also be familiar with the Doppler effect, and the sense of motion from sound as an object approaches or moves away. Setting aside the audio track from this clip, there is a visual analog.

In fact, there are plenty of research papers on this - and it is even core to Einstein's explanation of his relativity theory. Be my guest and read a few. Oddly, humans are pretty fallible.

Or, just accept that PT Barnum knew what he was talking about.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

"It may be novel to you, but seeing them do that seated is also pretty common"
so common that we have half a dozen of specialists (expro's/commentators/DSs) on the record suggesting there's something uncommon about those demarrages.
i see what you're saying, it may not be impossible, but then again it didn't happen in isolation as I said various times. If you can show someone else riding away like that, plus clicking awkwardly on his steeringwheel, plus doing an odd bike change, well, then he probably too is using a motor

have you seen the Cancellara interview where he tries to explain his Mur accelleration away from an in-form Boonen? it's hilarious, check it out. It's what lying through your teeth looks like.
That, and he admits his colleagues couldn't believe their eyes when he went away like that on the Mur.
Pretty common indeed.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

i never said cassani accused cancellara, so indeed i'm not worried

You didn't?

Ok then. What did you mean when you said this?

it looks mightily odd both to the trained (casani, boogerd, rasmussen, ducrot, belgian commentators) and what you'd call untrained eye (me and several other anonymous internet wankers) and it turns suspect in combination with the rumors of motorization. .

 

[Merckx index]

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this, I don't dismiss out of hand a motorized bike, but a couple of points:

1) I looked at the video as carefully as I could, and I sure can't see any hand movements that look like pushing a button. Not saying he didn't, all I'm saying is that if he did, I don't think the picture is clear enough and close enough to pick something that subtle out.
2) Why is maintaining the same cadence while going faster evidence of a motor? One of the links above clearly shows that when the motor is activated, the pedals turn. If a rider activates the motor while pedalling himself, that means the pedals will turn even faster, IOW, cadence will increase. Either that, or the rider will maintain the same cadence while putting out less physical effort.

So the benefit of the motor would show up either in increased cadence with the same physical effort, or the same cadence with less physical effort. It will not be manifested by going faster with the same cadence. That would violate some laws of physics, unless the gear size were changed. And for just that reason, I'm guessing that either his cadence did increase when he accelerated, or he changed gears.

 

[LeindersGains]

Do you guys think they will use doped bikes in the upcoming TT?

 

[sniper]

Re:

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this, I don't dismiss out of hand a motorized bike, but a couple of points:

1) I looked at the video as carefully as I could, and I sure can't see any hand movements that look like pushing a button. Not saying he didn't, all I'm saying is that if he did, I don't think the picture is clear enough and close enough to pick something that subtle out.
2) Why is maintaining the same cadence while going faster evidence of a motor? One of the links above clearly shows that when the motor is activated, the pedals turn. If a rider activates the motor while pedalling himself, that means the pedals will turn even faster, IOW, cadence will increase. Either that, or the rider will maintain the same cadence while putting out less physical effort.

So the benefit of the motor would show up either in increased cadence with the same physical effort, or the same cadence with less physical effort. It will not be manifested by going faster with the same cadence. That would violate some laws of physics, unless the gear size were changed. And for just that reason, I'm guessing that either his cadence did increase when he accelerated, or he changed gears.

good post.
what vid did you watch? there is one where they first explain the device and then show with arrows and slo-mo cancellara's clicking, which indeed pretty neatly matches the system they just explained.
Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0NXGTKnwGY
that's 7 minutes well spent

as to your second point: fair point.
The main point for me to bear in mind is that watching the video you see that, as another poster (Ray) said it, the accelleration and cadence + gear choice doesn't look real. The vid turned Lefevere from a skeptic into a believer (his own words).

 

[Cloxxki]

In one video I saw Boonen being dropped like a bad habit. C's ascend was fast indeed, oddly seated,but maybe not impossible if you consider that the motor had perhaps been providing 100W for a LONG time.
Imagine going against a very similar contender and having, say, half an hour long 100W less to pedal. You keep riding in tune with (in this case) Boonen, as you do in a classics break. Just, Boonen pushes 350W and is really hurting, you are going 250W and trying to not whistle the song going on in your head. Half an hour of that, and there is the mother of all village Murs. You betcha Boonen will break when you add you full (rested) might to the still present 100W free power. Make a break to Boonen, swap bikes, and pull your jersey straight.

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

"It may be novel to you, but seeing them do that seated is also pretty common"
so common that we have half a dozen of specialists (expro's/commentators/DSs) on the record suggesting there's something uncommon about those demarrages.
i see what you're saying, it may not be impossible, but then again it didn't happen in isolation as I said various times. If you can show someone else riding away like that, plus clicking awkwardly on his steeringwheel, plus doing an odd bike change, well, then he probably too is using a motor

have you seen the Cancellara interview where he tries to explain his Mur accelleration away from an in-form Boonen? it's hilarious, check it out. It's what lying through your teeth looks like.
That, and he admits his colleagues couldn't believe their eyes when he went away like that on the Mur.
Pretty common indeed.

(Note to self: Sniper says I need to get a steering wheel.)

Let's set aside the issue of viewing perspective, even though it almost certainly grossly distorted the viewer's perception of Cancellera.

Look, I am not the fastest guy around, though i am definitely one of the oldest.

Can I offer my pitiful self up as an example?

Earlier this year I put about 3 seconds on someone in about 200m into the finish on a flat course and he was doing close to 60kph. At that speed, the math is pretty easy and it is quite a distance. (50m in 12 seconds)

I did it seated. No motor. No steering wheel, either, though i do have handlebars.

And, with the wonders of the Internet, the results are available on line.

If you want, next time I do a sprint I will make a funny motion with both hands and we will see if i can still put that kind of distance on someone.

Don't know about the bike change, though. I may need sponsorship to buy another one.

Now, if an old fool like me can put that kind of distance on someone who is in a full out sprint, it can't be that uncommon. What can Cancellera do to separate himself from someone who could actually be slowing down to slip back to the group? The guy is a breakaway specialist, for Pete's sake, and jumps away from people ALL THE TIME. Sometimes he is the only interesting guy in the race. He clearly knows when and how to do this to perfection.

btw - I am looking forward to my $1m.

Now, I am not trying to defend a doper. And, I would be pretty upset if there were motors on bikes. But, just as it is impossible to believe that riders aren't doping any more, it is next to impossible to truly believe that Spartacus did that with a motor. The controversy is funny as hell, but its fiction.

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

(200m in 12 seconds @ 60km/hr = 50m in 3 seconds)

 

[sniper]

Dave, interesting post. What about your body and bike movement when you ride away like that? (see further below for explanation why i ask.)
----
Here's a breakdown of Cancellara's attack at Roubaix with ca. 49k to go by some blogger who says he "used a physics analysis software and some basic physics to get an idea of the speed and acceleration involved in this attack." The blogger looks at what in my opinion was indeed the most suspicious Roubaix jump (more suspicious than Cance riding away from Leukemans ca. two km later).
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/06/anatomy-of-cancellara-attack.html
It addresses all the variables Dave and others mentioned, such as camera speed/perspective, pace of the peloton when cancellara breaks away, etc.
His conclusion is that the jump was mindboggling but not impossible considering previous performances from Cancellara.

I still don't buy it though. Just look at how the speed of his bike increases without Cancellara putting in any kind of additional physical effort. Even if massively doped, you do actually have to increase leg and upper body movement in order to accellerate like that! But Cance doesn't.
Not only does Fabian stay in the saddle, he doesn't move his upper body, and finds the time to very calmly look backwards whilst the speed of his bike magically accellerates away from the bunch.

That blogger, btw, at the end he shows this vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNLMYpr2TM) as evidence that Cancellara has done similar jumps before. But guess what. In that vid (while impressive) Fabian does actually shake his bike and upper body as you'd expect of someone putting in a massive effort and also gets out of the saddle for a good few seconds. So it's still very much apples and pears.

----
O a side, here's Innerring explaining who started the rumors (well prior to the Italian tv program and youtube vid). Apparently it was French rider Anthony Roux directly after Paris Roubaix:
http://inrng.com/2010/04/does-cancellara-have-an-electric-bike/
also:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/jul/04/fabian-cancellara-prologue-motorised-doping

"Everyone thought he was incredible, but we wonder if it's true of not," said Française des Jeux rider Anthony Roux. "One has the impression he has a motor on the bike."

(nb: Roux is not the french rider who had heard a buzzing noise coming from Cance's bike, that was an anonymous french rider)

Here's a blogpost (in Italian) by the creator of that youtube vid, michele bufalino, who apparently wrote an entire book on motorized bikes(?), parts of which you can read here:
http://www.michelebufalino.com/la-bici-dopata-e-fabian-cancellara/
he also mentions Anthony Roux as the initial source of the rumors.
Also says he never received any message or legal threats from Cancellara.

 

[observer]

how has cancellara's results gone since this has broken in the media? has he done this type of acceleration again?

 

[sniper]

Re:

how has cancellara's results gone since this has broken in the media? has he done this type of acceleration again?

to avoid confusion, I think there are two questions to be asked:

(a) has he been in similarly strong form (viz. has he had similar results) before or after 2010? probably yes. (but open to debate)

(b) has he shown similar accellerations before or after 2010? not that i know of, but i can't/wouldn't rule it out either. (his 2007 TdF stage jump comes close, but see my discussion of it in previous post)

Then again, I'm not quite sure how relevant this is to the discussion, because:
1. According to Cassani (via his Hungarian informant Varjas), motorization technology has been used by pros from 2004 onwards. So we can't rule out that Cancellara has been using motors prior to 2010;
2. UCI have only briefly done more or less serious bike checking after 2010. So we can't rule out that Cance has continued to use motorization technology after 2010.

 

[sniper]

Re:

In one video I saw Boonen being dropped like a bad habit. C's ascend was fast indeed, oddly seated,but maybe not impossible if you consider that the motor had perhaps been providing 100W for a LONG time.
Imagine going against a very similar contender and having, say, half an hour long 100W less to pedal. You keep riding in tune with (in this case) Boonen, as you do in a classics break. Just, Boonen pushes 350W and is really hurting, you are going 250W and trying to not whistle the song going on in your head. Half an hour of that, and there is the mother of all village Murs. You betcha Boonen will break when you add you full (rested) might to the still present 100W free power. Make a break to Boonen, swap bikes, and pull your jersey straight.

fair points.
Cloxxki, what do you make of Cance's jump in Roubaix as shown at 2:10 into this (hd) video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7xjsPqHg3o
What strikes me as most unnatural is the complete lack of increased physical effort to accompany that jump.Doping, imo, cannot explain that.

 

[sniper]

Anthony Roux (FDJ) did not beat around the bush in this interview directly after Roubaix (please use google translate if needed):

Le doublé réalisé par Fabian Cancellara sur les classiques Flandriennes n'en finit pas de faire parler. Certains s'extasient devant la démonstration de force du coureur suisse, d'autres ne peuvent s'empêcher d'avoir des doutes. C'est le cas, notamment, d'Anthony Roux (Française des Jeux) qui reste perplexe face à tant de supériorité : "Dans le peloton, ça parle. Tout le monde a trouvé ça incroyable mais on se demande s’il est clair ou pas. On a l’impression qu’il a un moteur dans le vélo (...) Il a les pattes et il a changé de vélo avec une lucidité déconcertante. On verra si c’est un secret d’équipe, si les Schleck font la même chose sur l’Amstel. Il y a quand même pas mal de suspicion... ". Dynamo caché dans le vélo ou mieux : "On a beau dire que les Français ne s’entraînent pas, mais ils font ce qu’il faut. Et puis il n’y a pas que les Français : même Boonen était à bloc. (...) J’aimerais bien savoir ce qu’il se passe dans sa tête. S’il triche un peu, comment il le vit ? (...) Il me fascine, quand même. Après, on ne sait pas ce qu’il se passe. Il m’épate de passer entre les mailles du filet. Tout le monde doute... ".
Source : Le Républicain Lorrain
http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=5746#ancre1

this should definitively put to bed awkward claims about nobody taking it seriously. Also shows that Cance's bikeswitches weren't considered normal by at least one pro, and suggests other members of the peloton ('Dans le peloton, on ce parle') had motorization suspicions as well.
Would be good to know how many of the reports/rumors about bike-doping mentioned in the Circ report actually related to Cancellara 2010.

Pinotti had this to say after the giro 2010:

Marco Pinotti, an Italian who races for HTC-Columbia, said that when he first heard about the hidden motor, “it seemed a stupid thing.”

“But then I came to know the technology,” he added, “and I started making connections.”

Because he lacked hard evidence, Pinotti, who finished ninth over all in the Giro d’Italia, declined to say who he thought might be using motorized assistance or in what races it might have been used.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/sports/cycling/05cycle.html?_r=0

 

[Jagartrott]

I actually know a guy that is one of Boonen's closest friends.
After those two races (RVV and P-R) I asked him what Tom's opinion was on the rumours that surfaced about Cancellara's bike. He said something in the vein of that Boonen himself had some doubts (which he would never make public though). I know, this sounds like here-say, but perhaps Lefevre's comments have to be seen in that perspective (he knew what Tom thought).

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

as for cassani, i don't know what he did or didn't say, i didn't see the live program (only as part of that youtube collage). I've looked but can't find a link to the program.

So you don't know what Casani said, but nonetheless you decided to include him as an opinion that allegedly backs you up?

This is precisely the point. You make massive guesses based on things you don't know. You see a grainy vid of Canc moving his hand - thats Canc pressing a button. You see a video of a bike change. Even thats suspicious. Why would someone change a bike if they didn't have a motor in it. You hear Cassani in the same sentence as Cancellara one time and suddenly Cassani is a witness to the motor.

Like me you clearly didn't fully understand the cadence thing. But instead of saying "I'll wait and see what others say about this" like I did, you immediately jumped in with both feet and decided you had stone cold evidence of Cancellara using the motor.

And in the end you get egg on your face because as Merckx Index points out the motor is tied to the cadence anyway.