What about Aru's bike change on stage 16? Didn't appear to have a rear flat that way the rear wheel bounced as it did when he slammed the front brake on. Who uses the front brake that hard if you have a front flat?
This is getting interesting:
As I noted in my previous post, these are the kind of motors that would allow you to go faster without changing gears or cadence. But I also said that hub motors were hard to hide, and Science is Cool, who knows more about them than I do, seems to agree completely.
The CN article also claims that no one actually saw Contador puncture following the first pass over Aprica, implying that the wheel change he stopped for could have been to ditch a motor.
By this reasoning, he would have saved energy during the first part of the stage. Or if the wheel change were to take on a motor, would allow him to ride faster up the Mortirolo. But then why did he let Landa drop him at the end of the stage? Didn't want to appear suspicious? Thought his bike might be more likely to be tested?
The net result of that stage was to lose about 40 seconds to Landa. He couldn't have done at least that well without a motor? Or are we going to go full *** and say Landa had a motor, and Contador needed one to keep up? Is this why Aru couldn't stay with either one? But if Landa has the motor, why wasn't he team leader? Or doesn't the team know about this? And if Landa has a motor, why couldn't he ride the ITT faster?
And yet Contador's comments do raise suspicion:
Is he now claiming that he stopped not because of a flat, but to change tires? If that's the case, why should he expect the others to wait for him? And if changing tires is supposed to give him an advantage, why did he end up losing those forty seconds? To say that he would have done worse without the tire change implies that he at best would have stayed with Landa on the Mortirolo, then got dropped by even more at the end.
This is the best spin I can put on Contador's comments. By stopping to change tires or wheels, he thinks he can pick up some time on his rivals. But this assumes 1) the rivals will stop and wait for him to change the tires/wheels; if they don't, he's in danger of losing more time than what he would have gained, or, as happened on that stage, having to put out more effort than he had planned; and 2) the new tires or wheels make the difference between dropping a rival and not dropping him on one of the climbs, or dropping him by more.
Both of these premises seem very questionable to me. Why would anyone feel he had to wait while the MJ changed wheels, unless the change was planned to appear like a flat? (cheating even at cheating!). And would a different tire or wheel really make a difference on a climbing stage? On an ITT, anything that makes you go faster will save seconds. But on a climbing stage, going a little faster may just mean a slightly faster pace, without having any effect on your rivals. If you drop them, maybe you increase the gap a little, but if you don't, the little extra speed doesn't have any effect on the GC.
Very strange. Still, I really don't think Berto had a motor on that stage, but I'm glad they're checking.
As I noted in my previous post, these are the kind of motors that would allow you to go faster without changing gears or cadence. But I also said that hub motors were hard to hide, and Science is Cool, who knows more about them than I do, seems to agree completely.
The CN article also claims that no one actually saw Contador puncture following the first pass over Aprica, implying that the wheel change he stopped for could have been to ditch a motor.
By this reasoning, he would have saved energy during the first part of the stage. Or if the wheel change were to take on a motor, would allow him to ride faster up the Mortirolo. But then why did he let Landa drop him at the end of the stage? Didn't want to appear suspicious? Thought his bike might be more likely to be tested?
The net result of that stage was to lose about 40 seconds to Landa. He couldn't have done at least that well without a motor? Or are we going to go full *** and say Landa had a motor, and Contador needed one to keep up? Is this why Aru couldn't stay with either one? But if Landa has the motor, why wasn't he team leader? Or doesn't the team know about this? And if Landa has a motor, why couldn't he ride the ITT faster?
And yet Contador's comments do raise suspicion:
Is he now claiming that he stopped not because of a flat, but to change tires? If that's the case, why should he expect the others to wait for him? And if changing tires is supposed to give him an advantage, why did he end up losing those forty seconds? To say that he would have done worse without the tire change implies that he at best would have stayed with Landa on the Mortirolo, then got dropped by even more at the end.
This is the best spin I can put on Contador's comments. By stopping to change tires or wheels, he thinks he can pick up some time on his rivals. But this assumes 1) the rivals will stop and wait for him to change the tires/wheels; if they don't, he's in danger of losing more time than what he would have gained, or, as happened on that stage, having to put out more effort than he had planned; and 2) the new tires or wheels make the difference between dropping a rival and not dropping him on one of the climbs, or dropping him by more.
Both of these premises seem very questionable to me. Why would anyone feel he had to wait while the MJ changed wheels, unless the change was planned to appear like a flat? (cheating even at cheating!). And would a different tire or wheel really make a difference on a climbing stage? On an ITT, anything that makes you go faster will save seconds. But on a climbing stage, going a little faster may just mean a slightly faster pace, without having any effect on your rivals. If you drop them, maybe you increase the gap a little, but if you don't, the little extra speed doesn't have any effect on the GC.
Very strange. Still, I really don't think Berto had a motor on that stage, but I'm glad they're checking.
- May 27, 2010
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Re:
All of this smacks of distraction from the real alien landing.
Why focus on the unlikely, and very marginally possible when we aren't putting any effort on the probable and highly likely?
Stamp out doping, and then I will care about the unlikely possibility of a motor that would be remotely useful in a Tour stage.
Dave.
sniper said:
All of this smacks of distraction from the real alien landing.
Why focus on the unlikely, and very marginally possible when we aren't putting any effort on the probable and highly likely?
Stamp out doping, and then I will care about the unlikely possibility of a motor that would be remotely useful in a Tour stage.
Dave.
Re: Re:
what is marginally possible? that system cassani showed to the world, shown on several internet sites, etc.? it's possible alright. Not following why you're still denying that. The world isn't flat.
And what Tour stage? I'm still talking PR and especially RvV 2010, from where there is clear evidence of a highly dodgy premeditated bike switch that you refuse to address or look into.
And why stamp out doping? Cance is/was and will be a massive doper.
what is marginally possible? that system cassani showed to the world, shown on several internet sites, etc.? it's possible alright. Not following why you're still denying that. The world isn't flat.
And what Tour stage? I'm still talking PR and especially RvV 2010, from where there is clear evidence of a highly dodgy premeditated bike switch that you refuse to address or look into.
And why stamp out doping? Cance is/was and will be a massive doper.
Re:
anyway, good job analysing Berto's alleged wheel change.
if you have some time on your hands, you should apply similar scrutiny to cancellara's bike changes at RvV. Did you see the Durand vid?
We're likely not gonna get any better evidence of motorization than that Durand analysis.
Anybody sitting on the fence wrt motorization should really engage with that Durand vid.
good post. I agree, don't think bertie was using a motor, but as benotti says, the testing is completely irrelevant here. They're not going to expose anybody.Merckx index said:
i.e. to be able to tell the world that there's nothing to see here.
anyway, good job analysing Berto's alleged wheel change.
if you have some time on your hands, you should apply similar scrutiny to cancellara's bike changes at RvV. Did you see the Durand vid?
We're likely not gonna get any better evidence of motorization than that Durand analysis.
Anybody sitting on the fence wrt motorization should really engage with that Durand vid.
:I agree Sniper. I think anyone can look to disprove it and even one poster claimed he could accelerate like fab did at PR 
.
If it's going or was going on it was all kept very tight and the exact tech that would be used is not going to get out there unless we have a confession.
For me the smoking gun is the PR acceleration with outa doubt. If you look at it and imagine Fab is not peddling you can almost see the point where the "alleged" motor kicks in.
.If it's going or was going on it was all kept very tight and the exact tech that would be used is not going to get out there unless we have a confession.
For me the smoking gun is the PR acceleration with outa doubt. If you look at it and imagine Fab is not peddling you can almost see the point where the "alleged" motor kicks in.
- Jul 17, 2009
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meanwhile this is the level of technology available to the public. motor well hidden. http://www.currietech.com/haibike/haibike-xduro-race-d-5
I find it hard to believe their is a level of technology that is so far removed from consumption as is assumed with the alleged motorized bikes in peloton
I find it hard to believe their is a level of technology that is so far removed from consumption as is assumed with the alleged motorized bikes in peloton
- Sep 29, 2012
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And if Astana had any inkling of Contador stopping to swap out a wheel to a motorised wheel, it makes a lot more sense that they floored it to put time into him.
- May 19, 2010
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So RAI is part of a conspiracy to let Contador change wheels to hide a motor? If you have a choice in the matter why do it on a descent, with Katusha bombing on the front? I guess it must be a cunning Oleg plan. He's bought off both RAI and RCS (at least the race commisare).
Presumeably Basso got the wheel with the motor. Too bad he couldn't make it up to Contador again so he could help him in the chase, maybe the battery was empty.
Anyway, there are a few short images of it. Basso is standing by the road, bent over his bike, Contador is in front of him, just starting up again. Rosa (or Lulu?) is yelling into the radio. The camera bike at the end of the strung out maglia rosa group is flying by. Then they cut to the front of the group where Kathusha is racing hard, with a little gap to the rest of the maglia rosa group. (at ca 58.00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9JqFfw-6D0 ) There is no more images of it because one camera bike was on the front of the group and the next one was at the back, and the group was so strung out that by the time the camera bike on the back came to where Contador and Basso had stoped, Contador was already back on the bike.
- Aug 7, 2010
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A motorized bike would mean a team-wide conspiracy. Too stupid to be real. Also UCI checking at that frequency is to prove to the public that its not a current problem. Imagine the consequences of a rider getting popped with a motor......
Chipist said:
A motorized bike would mean a team-wide conspiracy. Too stupid to be real. Also UCI checking at that frequency is to prove to the public that its not a current problem. Imagine the consequences of a rider getting popped with a motor......
Re: Re:
Breschel clearly wasn't in on it.
If your french is anywhere near decent, check out Durand's video analysis (at least one of these two links should work):
http://archives-lepost.huffingtonpost.fr/article/2010/06/15/2114704_cyclisme-le-velo-a-moteur-de-cancellara-refait-du-bruit.html
http://www.dhnet.be/sports/cyclisme/jacky-durand-cancellara-n-a-pas-tout-dit-video-51b7980be4b0de6db983473e
Why exactly?Fortyninefourteen said:
Breschel clearly wasn't in on it.
If your french is anywhere near decent, check out Durand's video analysis (at least one of these two links should work):
http://archives-lepost.huffingtonpost.fr/article/2010/06/15/2114704_cyclisme-le-velo-a-moteur-de-cancellara-refait-du-bruit.html
http://www.dhnet.be/sports/cyclisme/jacky-durand-cancellara-n-a-pas-tout-dit-video-51b7980be4b0de6db983473e
- Jun 19, 2009
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Apart from some kind of motor, what else could you illegally do to a bike to make it faster ?
Weight below the minimum would be one I guess. Anything else ? Components that aren't available to buy ?
Weight below the minimum would be one I guess. Anything else ? Components that aren't available to buy ?
- May 15, 2011
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Yeah this is AFAIK most commonly mentioned as the reason for Contador's bike changes before the summit finish.Eyeballs Out said:
Re: Re:
And also the frame supplier and motor unit supplier I would guess.
I would like someone to describe the battery that might be used to motorize a bicycle (size, weight, and amperage).
Benotti69 said:
And also the frame supplier and motor unit supplier I would guess.
I would like someone to describe the battery that might be used to motorize a bicycle (size, weight, and amperage).
Re: Re:
26650 Li-Ion cell (26 mm diameter x 65 mm length) of the "Spinel" variety is the choice for high current applications like this. http://www.molicel.com/ca/products.html These can range from 100 to 200 Wh/kg. So if you want 50 Watts for half an hour (or a 100 Watt boost for 15 minutes), you'd need ~150 grams of batteries. Worst case would be two of the batteries I described above which would come in at ~200 grams. The battery pack would be just over 5 inches long and fit nicely in the seat tube.
That's worst case. You could use LiCoO2 instead on "spinel" and get longer life or less weight, but you might need more of them to get the amperage you need (voltage drops at high discharge rates due to Li Ion mobility issues). So I'd say that no matter which way you decide to engineer it, the likely solution will weight less than half a pound and tuck nicely into the seat tube.
John Swanson
avanti said:
26650 Li-Ion cell (26 mm diameter x 65 mm length) of the "Spinel" variety is the choice for high current applications like this. http://www.molicel.com/ca/products.html These can range from 100 to 200 Wh/kg. So if you want 50 Watts for half an hour (or a 100 Watt boost for 15 minutes), you'd need ~150 grams of batteries. Worst case would be two of the batteries I described above which would come in at ~200 grams. The battery pack would be just over 5 inches long and fit nicely in the seat tube.
That's worst case. You could use LiCoO2 instead on "spinel" and get longer life or less weight, but you might need more of them to get the amperage you need (voltage drops at high discharge rates due to Li Ion mobility issues). So I'd say that no matter which way you decide to engineer it, the likely solution will weight less than half a pound and tuck nicely into the seat tube.
John Swanson
- May 27, 2010
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John,
Why don't you put together a prototype with your off-the-shelf parts?
And, why not then arrange for some extensive independent testing to confirm operability, performance boost, practicality, check out the control software etc.
We could crowd-fund for the $1,000 or so you appear to believe it would cost.
And, you can probably get a firm pre-production order, with deposit, from sniper who appears to be very attached to this thing. That could provide further financial leverage.
Should be a slam dunk. If what you say is true.
Dave.
ScienceIsCool said:
John,
Why don't you put together a prototype with your off-the-shelf parts?
And, why not then arrange for some extensive independent testing to confirm operability, performance boost, practicality, check out the control software etc.
We could crowd-fund for the $1,000 or so you appear to believe it would cost.
And, you can probably get a firm pre-production order, with deposit, from sniper who appears to be very attached to this thing. That could provide further financial leverage.
Should be a slam dunk. If what you say is true.
Dave.
Lemond just joined the science fiction conspiracy club.
Something's not right here.
Lemond having to explain to the UCI how to test for motors.
Something's not right here.
- Jul 27, 2009
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I prefer the way the UCI is checking, actually removing parts. If they actually want to take talk of motors right of the table they should look at sealing bottom brackets similar to how motorsport seal control parts. The motor talk is justing getting ridiculous now.
- Jul 27, 2009
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Just a general FYI here as I can't be bothered reading the last forty pages. This is an internal view of a Chris King hub, most hubs look similar. I post it because while it is common knowledge you can put a noisy motor in the seat tube driving a shimano crankset with a big battery mounted somewhere I just haven't seen anyone come up with a plausible working example of a rear hub system that can fit within the confines of a 35mm hub shell that has a 12-14mm axle running through it.
Re: Re:
Why wouldn't I just buy a Gruber or one of the others out there for sale? It would be a fun side project if there was anything novel, but there isn't. Kind of like a quadcopter. Would've been a great project 5-7 years ago. Today? Just call up Parrot.
And no, people aren't buying these systems in any great quantity. Why would they? These systems aren't designed to self-propel the bike around the city while commuting/shopping. They give a small-ish boost for a limited time. The most successful e-bikes on the market are more like e-scooters. They can be heavy and bulky just as long as they have the right range and hit the right price point.
John Swanson
Why wouldn't I just buy a Gruber or one of the others out there for sale? It would be a fun side project if there was anything novel, but there isn't. Kind of like a quadcopter. Would've been a great project 5-7 years ago. Today? Just call up Parrot.
And no, people aren't buying these systems in any great quantity. Why would they? These systems aren't designed to self-propel the bike around the city while commuting/shopping. They give a small-ish boost for a limited time. The most successful e-bikes on the market are more like e-scooters. They can be heavy and bulky just as long as they have the right range and hit the right price point.
John Swanson
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