The doped bike exists (video of pro version)!

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

That would be *super* relevant. If you could also order a Sasquatch online.

John Swanson

<sigh>

Ok, how about this state of the art machine:

Here is one that doubles as some kind of a self-charging trainer:

While this version 'runs' just fine:

Dave.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

...

That would be *super* relevant. If you could also order a Sasquatch online.

John Swanson

<sigh>

Ok, how about this state of the art machine:

Here is one that doubles as some kind of a self-charging trainer:

While this version 'runs' just fine:

Dave.

You nailed it! Photographic proof that carbon fiber bikes don't exist! Or at least they are theoretically possible but would require a global conspiracy and a $10 billion dollar budget to develop. You couldn't hide it. There is no *way* that Greg Lemond had a carbon fiber bike painted to look like his steel team bike ca. 1990.

John Swanson

 

[joe_papp]

Re:

I don't think motorization is currently widespread at all, but to use 'ethics' or 'risk' as an argument as to why it may or may not have happened, that just doesn't cut it.

It is difficult to imagine that people willing to cheat would have ethical concerns about motodoping, so I think we can count that out.

I give more credence to the lack of really concrete details of even a custom-made system assembled from commercially available parts, compatible w/ what one knows more/less about frames going back to 2010.

The thing w/ even then-exotic (or maybe still exotic) doping products like Hemassist and Oxyglobin is that...they actually existed - indisputably - even when riders weren't showing up at the startline w/ bags of it. Now granted, Frigo got duped into buying fake HemAssist online, but at least one could buy "it". Where can one source a viable motodoping rig?

I'm also skeptical that any major manufacturer would risk custom producing a frame expressly for the purposes of motodoping. Even if they weren't having it built in Taiwan of PRC at whatever factory makes their stuff, there would still be at least one other person besides the rider who was thusly aware that a frame was being built to facilitate motodoping. Why would Specialized or Cervelo brand risk actively contributing to increasing their risk of public backlash from a (moto)doping scandal? That's something very different than passively accepting the risk that riders might be caught doping their bodies - something in which the bike manufacturer can easily distance themselves from.

It's an interesting discussion though. I really, really would like to see actual evidence for existence of a viable system that's race-proven. Remember how many people speculated that Lance was using otherwise unobtainable cancer-med drugs to fuel some super sophisticated secret doping program? In the end it was just EPO, blood transfusions, and masterful logistics...

 

[observer]

since the big hoo-haa about Cancellaras motor, how many times has he ridden away in the same manner?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

...



.....Remember how many people speculated that Lance was using otherwise unobtainable cancer-med drugs to fuel some super sophisticated secret doping program? In the end it was just EPO, blood transfusions, and masterful logistics...

It was 'just' with the corruption of the UCI, EPO, HGH, steroids, blood transfusions, getting competitors busted.......etc etc

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

It is difficult to imagine that people willing to cheat would have ethical concerns about motodoping, so I think we can count that out.

I give more credence to the lack of really concrete details of even a custom-made system assembled from commercially available parts, compatible w/ what one knows more/less about frames going back to 2010.

The thing w/ even then-exotic (or maybe still exotic) doping products like Hemassist and Oxyglobin is that...they actually existed - indisputably - even when riders weren't showing up at the startline w/ bags of it. Now granted, Frigo got duped into buying fake HemAssist online, but at least one could buy "it".

Mauro Gianetti almost lost his life to perfluorocarbons, and Johan Museeuw almost lost his leg after the crash at Roubaix because of perfluorocarbons.

I might be wrong on both, it might be like the EPO deaths in sleep, that one or two valid accounts, have been blown out of all proportion to a doping phenomena/phenomenon. There is stuff on Gianetti in a google search, but cant find the Museeuw material, and anyhow, it would not substantiate it for validity, unless it was a New Yorker fact checking division.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

...



.....Remember how many people speculated that Lance was using otherwise unobtainable cancer-med drugs to fuel some super sophisticated secret doping program? In the end it was just EPO, blood transfusions, and masterful logistics...

It was 'just' with the corruption of the UCI, EPO, HGH, steroids, blood transfusions, getting competitors busted.......etc etc

no, he stayed off the HGH. but he went down the steroids and surely was using testo. and assume as well as insulin, he was doing the IGF-II, or the first iteration of the IGF. I dont think that goes with the insulin or does not work in unison, think it is a precursor or further pathway. i am not even a layperson biochem boffin.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

since the big hoo-haa about Cancellaras motor, how many times has he ridden away in the same manner?

the year after it was Boonen who did a 50km Roubaix win.

It is only these two riders of this generation.

P'raps if Boasson Hagen went back to his espoir and Columbia doping program, p'raps if Sagan forget about sprints and climbing mid stages, and focused just on Roubaix and Flanders, we would have two worthy cyclists to these two champion veterans thrones. Kristoff not.

Maybe if Kittell was not such a good sprinter, he could have been a champion in the classics, this is the way the other Skil rider Degenkolb is taking

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

It's an interesting discussion though. I really, really would like to see actual evidence for existence of a viable system that's race-proven. Remember how many people speculated that Lance was using otherwise unobtainable cancer-med drugs to fuel some super sophisticated secret doping program? In the end it was just EPO, blood transfusions, and masterful logistics...

insulin
testo
bloodbags.

that should be enough.

remember Edita Rumsas and Raimondas Rumsas when he was third in 2002? if you netralise Joseba Beloki's TTT with ONCE versus the Lampre TTT, then Rumsas beats Beloki.

So, it is more about having your doctor, motoman, Odessamachinegun, Edita, bring the shwag of Edgar and other products, the oxygen vector stuff the most important like Bernhard Kohl said when his coach/trainer/manager Stefan Matschiner had his blood coagulate in the overhead storage on the Ryanair RYN Vienna-Marseille 0900 flight in 2008

 

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

It's an interesting discussion though. I really, really would like to see actual evidence for existence of a viable system that's race-proven. Remember how many people speculated that Lance was using otherwise unobtainable cancer-med drugs to fuel some super sophisticated secret doping program? In the end it was just EPO, blood transfusions, and masterful logistics...

insulin
testo
bloodbags.

that should be enough.

remember Edita Rumsas and Raimondas Rumsas when he was third in 2002? if you netralise Joseba Beloki's TTT with ONCE versus the Lampre TTT, then Rumsas beats Beloki.

So, it is more about having your doctor, motoman, Odessamachinegun, Edita, bring the shwag of Edgar and other products, the oxygen vector stuff the most important like Bernhard Kohl said when his coach/trainer/manager Stefan Matschiner had his blood coagulate in the overhead storage on the Ryanair RYN Vienna-Marseille 0900 flight in 2008

No, for sure - I hear what you're saying and agree. Obviously Lance used more doping products and methods than just EPO and transfusions, but doctor, motoman, Edita, campervans, Ryanair - I'd lump that all into logistics...even corrupting the anti-doping process itself, as that's just a more advanced aspect of organizing a really "professional" (lol) approach to sport.

The point I was inarticulately trying to make by referring to LA is just that many "people" seemed to think he was taking magical unicorn blood (which is what secret electric motors kinda sounds like now)...when it was really just the same ordinary doping products that all of us had reasonable access to. But even still, the semi-magical unicorn/bovine blood "exotics" like Hemopure & Oxyglobin, PolyHeme, Hemolink, Hemospan...all that stuff actually existed/exists in the real world ... yet motodoping seems so, so speculative at present.

Of course I don't think for a second that someone willing to dope or otherwise cheat would be unwilling to use a secret electric motor if it was available, practical, functional, helpful, reasonably undetectable, etc. Of course they would - it's all cheating in the end. Cancellara's an awesome rider - it's not like he'd even really need motodoping en lieu of or on top of actual doping in order to make a few other-worldly accelerations. Regular plain old doping can facilitate what appears to be magic under "ideal" conditions (including everything from momentarily favorable wind to just knackered/distracted opponents).

OT: remember Mavic ZAP? I have a nos wiring loom + shifter buttons in a box in my garage. Lost the rear derailleur at some point when moving. lol. Zap!

 

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

I might be wrong on both, it might be like the EPO deaths in sleep, that one or two valid accounts, have been blown out of all proportion to a doping phenomena/phenomenon. There is stuff on Gianetti in a google search, but cant find the Museeuw material, and anyhow, it would not substantiate it for validity, unless it was a New Yorker fact checking division.

I think we're in agreement here. HBOCs were considered exotic, not least of all b/c they were not easy to obtain (unless you were sleeping w/ a vet and wanted to try Oxyglobin). But they existed. Even if not used w/ anywhere near the frequency of EPO - or even 'Nesp at the time.

I'm not arguing against the possibility that motodoping has been realized. I'm just skeptical and would like to see some evidence that the tech necessary is commercially available and that it's viable to implement in such a manner as to ensure the necessary robustness and integrity of the frame for use by professionals in crazy Classics.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

[ No, for sure - I hear what you're saying and agree. Obviously Lance used more doping products and methods than just EPO and transfusions, but doctor, motoman, Edita, campervans, Ryanair - I'd lump that all into logistics...even corrupting the anti-doping process itself, as that's just a more advanced aspect of organizing a really "professional" (lol) approach to sport.

but Joe, you have prolly read enough of my posts to know that i am the forum harlequin, so only a few of my posts are to be taken with a grain of salt/truth.
above and over, testo/blood or edgar/ and insulin, it is all declining marginal gain from there. if you have a little testo, a little insulin...
actually, we forget the chief PED which before Edgar, it was not a steroid or testo, it (well it was a steroid, just catabolic) it was cortisone/corticoids/corticosteroids/anti-intflammatories. So above and beyond the cortisone + O2 technique + testo + insulin, you dont need your actovegin or the calves blood extract. one is the calves milk, the other the blood extract, all of that $heeeit is superfluous. just have the insulin testo O2 and cortisone, and you are home free.

The point I was inarticulately trying to make by referring to LA is just that many "people" seemed to think he was taking magical unicorn blood (which is what secret electric motors kinda sounds like now)...when it was really just the same ordinary doping products that all of us had reasonable access to. But even still, the semi-magical unicorn/bovine blood "exotics" like Hemopure & Oxyglobin, PolyHeme, Hemolink, Hemospan...all that stuff actually existed/exists in the real world ... yet motodoping seems so, so speculative at present.

Of course I don't think for a second that someone willing to dope or otherwise cheat would be unwilling to use a secret electric motor if it was available, practical, functional, helpful, reasonably undetectable, etc. Of course they would - it's all cheating in the end. Cancellara's an awesome rider - it's not like he'd even really need motodoping en lieu of or on top of actual doping in order to make a few other-worldly accelerations. Regular plain old doping can facilitate what appears to be magic under "ideal" conditions (including everything from momentarily favorable wind to just knackered/distracted opponents).

OT: remember Mavic ZAP? I have a nos wiring loom + shifter buttons in a box in my garage. Lost the rear derailleur at some point when moving. lol. Zap!

like D-Q has said, the OP and thread confusing trees for the forest. the forest is the overarching element, or the meta which is the legitimacy of the sport undermined by the cheating, which has been decades in the making from doping, not motors, unless there is some curious confluence and meta motor element with the wrench or lbs owner in Cannes or Nice or whereever motoman has his shop. /alliterations

if there were motors when Armstrong came back, he would have had access to them, that we know for sure.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I think we're in agreement here. HBOCs were considered exotic, not least of all b/c they were not easy to obtain (unless you were sleeping w/ a vet and wanted to try Oxyglobin). But they existed. Even if not used w/ anywhere near the frequency of EPO - or even 'Nesp at the time.

Joe what is the one, or do I have a mythical anecdote, the HBOC where you were supposed to take nigh 100% oxygen from one of those divers canisters (not that they fill them with pure oxygen however), when you took the HBOC i am assuming via IV. oxygen tanks...

did I get this right? does anyone know the PED where you have to take, that is, breath from a cylinder 100% oxygen. I thought it could have been the perfluoro carbon

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

I'm also skeptical that any major manufacturer would risk custom producing a frame expressly for the purposes of motodoping. Even if they weren't having it built in Taiwan of PRC at whatever factory makes their stuff, there would still be at least one other person besides the rider who was thusly aware that a frame was being built to facilitate motodoping. Why would Specialized or Cervelo brand risk actively contributing to increasing their risk of public backlash from a (moto)doping scandal? That's something very different than passively accepting the risk that riders might be caught doping their bodies - something in which the bike manufacturer can easily distance themselves from.

considering that some pros use other bikes that they prefer, but just have them re-painted and re-badged, I think if anyone was actually doing it then it would be on a custom bike made to look like the team bike.
But, again, you'd need several people involved, and just like "the perfect crime" it'd fail because someone would be unable to keep their yap shut...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I'm also skeptical that any major manufacturer would risk custom producing a frame expressly for the purposes of motodoping. Even if they weren't having it built in Taiwan of PRC at whatever factory makes their stuff, there would still be at least one other person besides the rider who was thusly aware that a frame was being built to facilitate motodoping. Why would Specialized or Cervelo brand risk actively contributing to increasing their risk of public backlash from a (moto)doping scandal? That's something very different than passively accepting the risk that riders might be caught doping their bodies - something in which the bike manufacturer can easily distance themselves from.

considering that some pros use other bikes that they prefer, but just have them re-painted and re-badged, I think if anyone was actually doing it then it would be on a custom bike made to look like the team bike.
But, again, you'd need several people involved, and just like "the perfect crime" it'd fail because someone would be unable to keep their yap shut...

ask yourself:
1. who would talk?
2. why would that person talk?
3. what would that person say?
4. what would happen if that person would say that?

answers that come to mind:
1. nobody;
2. ehm, no effing idea;
3. ehm...the same *** we're saying in this thread, the same *** Lemond, Ferrari, Roux, and others have said, the same thing pro-riders have told the CIRC, iow, the same thing the UCI apparently doesn't want to hear or look at.
4. he'd become known as a bitter loser with an axe to grind.

So go back to 2010 when nobody was talking about or looking out for motors, and you'll agree using the system during two races in the season, with a minor bit of planning (see Durand), would have seemed like a very low risk undertaking with a very high award.
2010 that is.
The worse that could happen is, well, exactly what has happened: lots of talk and rumors, no (hard) evidence.

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

I'm also skeptical that any major manufacturer would risk custom producing a frame expressly for the purposes of motodoping. Even if they weren't having it built in Taiwan of PRC at whatever factory makes their stuff, there would still be at least one other person besides the rider who was thusly aware that a frame was being built to facilitate motodoping. Why would Specialized or Cervelo brand risk actively contributing to increasing their risk of public backlash from a (moto)doping scandal? That's something very different than passively accepting the risk that riders might be caught doping their bodies - something in which the bike manufacturer can easily distance themselves from.

considering that some pros use other bikes that they prefer, but just have them re-painted and re-badged, I think if anyone was actually doing it then it would be on a custom bike made to look like the team bike.
But, again, you'd need several people involved, and just like "the perfect crime" it'd fail because someone would be unable to keep their yap shut...

ask yourself:
1. who would talk?
2. why would that person talk?
3. what would that person say?
4. what would happen if that person would say that?

answers that come to mind:
1. nobody;
2. ehm, no effing idea;
3. ehm...the same **** we're saying in this thread, the same **** Lemond, Ferrari, Roux, and others have said, the same thing pro-riders have told the CIRC, iow, the same thing the UCI apparently doesn't want to hear or look at.
4. he'd become known as a bitter loser with an axe to grind.

So go back to 2010 when nobody was talking about or looking out for motors, and you'll agree using the system during two races in the season, with a minor bit of planning (see Durand), would have seemed like a very low risk undertaking with a very high award.
2010 that is.
The worse that could happen is, well, exactly what has happened: lots of talk and rumors, no (hard) evidence.

Some good points here Sniper. With regards points 1,2 and 4, pro cycling is a small club, predominantly populated with people of limited intellect who mostly have few prospects in the real world, they ain't rocking the boat no matter how bad the cheating gets. Anyone who is brave enough to highlight something is, as you say, ejected from the club and branded bitter.

Also getting the UCI to check bikes for motors is like getting kids to mark their own homework.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

cheers, carrot, agree with your description of the peloton.

Also getting the UCI to check bikes for motors is like getting kids to mark their own homework.

great metaphor

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

I'm also skeptical that any major manufacturer would risk custom producing a frame expressly for the purposes of motodoping. Even if they weren't having it built in Taiwan of PRC at whatever factory makes their stuff, there would still be at least one other person besides the rider who was thusly aware that a frame was being built to facilitate motodoping. Why would Specialized or Cervelo brand risk actively contributing to increasing their risk of public backlash from a (moto)doping scandal? That's something very different than passively accepting the risk that riders might be caught doping their bodies - something in which the bike manufacturer can easily distance themselves from.

considering that some pros use other bikes that they prefer, but just have them re-painted and re-badged, I think if anyone was actually doing it then it would be on a custom bike made to look like the team bike.
But, again, you'd need several people involved, and just like "the perfect crime" it'd fail because someone would be unable to keep their yap shut...

How many people does it take to dope? You've got an entire supply chain plus those administering the product. There's a money trail, too. Probably as many or more people involved than it would take to get a custom frame and motor. And yet these doping cabals can keep their yaps shut. Well except for Papp that is... I kid.

Not sure why people are skeptical that these motors exist. The tech is available and not all that advanced. I've shown that all this was feasible from ~2010 onwards and even today you can whip out your credit card and purchase one of these systems online. Companies are making and selling them. Completely hidden and can provide 100 Watts or more.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Not sure why people are skeptical that these motors exist.

well, it took a while for people to accept the earth isn't flat.

I'll post this again. Excellent 15 minutes, enough to see even if you don't speak Dutch.
http://www.humo.be/filmpjes/270838/mechanische-doping-het-definitieve-bewijs
2014, Belgian amateur testing motorized bike in-competition.
the guy is a mid-pack amateur. With the motor things are different. He finishes up front and gets chance to sprint for victory (which in the end he didn't do because he didn't think it was the right thing to do).
Nobody notices the motor.
He bought the bike off a Belgian distributor (the actual producer being based in Austria).
So that's a grand total of one guy involved in a hypothetical cover up.

 

[Cycle Chic]

that link dont show it

 

[Tyre Byter]

Re: Re:

I think we're in agreement here. HBOCs were considered exotic, not least of all b/c they were not easy to obtain (unless you were sleeping w/ a vet and wanted to try Oxyglobin). But they existed. Even if not used w/ anywhere near the frequency of EPO - or even 'Nesp at the time.

Joe what is the one, or do I have a mythical anecdote, the HBOC where you were supposed to take nigh 100% oxygen from one of those divers canisters (not that they fill them with pure oxygen however), when you took the HBOC i am assuming via IV. oxygen tanks...

did I get this right? does anyone know the PED where you have to take, that is, breath from a cylinder 100% oxygen. I thought it could have been the perfluoro carbon

PFC's
http://www.nataonline.com/np/422/perfluorocarbon-emulsions

 

[sniper]

Re:

that link dont show it

cheers.
this link is better, directly to youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo

 

[ray j willings]

I spoke to my Friend Ed ,,,a expert in carbon and building bikes etc.
He said that fitting a motor into a carbon frame would not be a problem.

To bring up something that was mentioned earlier, Ed showed me a carbon frame he his fixing and he his actually fixing the BB area of a carbon frame which has split from the bottom of the downtube and right across and down the bb tube.. so it can be done.

 

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

ask yourself:
1. who would talk?
2. why would that person talk?
3. what would that person say?
4. what would happen if that person would say that?

Well let me again make clear that I do not discount the possibility that motodoping has occurred.

W/ respect to your questions, my only somewhat or modestly informed perspective is that, until the UCI or WADA or other ADOs start offering bounties to informants who denounce cheaters and provide sufficient evidence to lead to a conviction, chatty-kathy athletes will still be chatty-kathy athletes (even if to a more constrained degree than pre-2006 go-go days) and at least some cheaters will share details of what they're doing w/ the riders they perceive as sympathetic equals in the bunch. Idk - I'd have to talk to Michael Shermer or Dan Ariely and ask them to explain this is more formal, scientific-research backed terms, but I consistently observed this phenomena w/r/t doping cheating on like four or five continents! If I know or suspect you're using magical unicorn blood, and I only have access to ordinary processed cow blood or whatever, I'm going to try to get you to clue me in on where the unicorns are and how you hunt them. I'm not going to rat you out to some random DCO who I look down on and who I believe can't for a second appreciate how awesome we are and how unique the shared sacrifice and suffering we endure makes us...

[EDIT: to the person above who suggests I proactively ratted out my clients - why do you and people like you seemingly refuse to accept that USADA already had the entire client list and all transaction details thanks to the fact that the fcking DEA raided my operation and the Secret Service helped them decrypt data? What was I going to do when handed a plaintext list of customer details, payments, shipping tracking no's or courier details, email and message traffic, etc? Claim that it was all fabricated?]

That kind of share-and-share-alike cheating culture can't be wiped out in 4-5 years, even with the intervention of law enforcement. Cheating is a 100+year-old way of life in pro cycling. Though clearly inroads are being made to undermine the corruption - at least superficially.

Idk...has anyone talked to the guys Cancellara beat in the races where you suspect he motodoped? Gotten his rivals to go on the record (or even speak anon) and allege motodoping? Someone above suggested that cyclists are basically intellectual morons (nice stereotype). Most may not be university educated, but ... the top whatever-% of the field -- the guys who are actually fighting for victory across various terrain & sub-specialties of road cycling can often intuit or infer when a rider has become magically-potent and is performing outside of normal parameters...you'd think that they themselves would be trying to learn about new magical unicorn blood /motors if they reasonably suspected at least one rival had access to them.

Of course, maybe motodoping can provide such a finely calibrated, almost undetectable margin of superiority against one's rivals that they don't realize they're being duped by a new method of cheating.

But then that kinda flies in the face of what seems to have started this discussion - claims that Fabs' accelerations were so alien-like that they must've been powered by Chinese electronics so surely everyone distanced by them would've been trying to figure out what was up and arming themselves accordingly.

idk...I'm skeptical but hardly consider it impossible. What are the other examples of probable motodoping moments? Surely there have to be more suspicious accelerations and battery-assisted rides than just a couple from 2010?

 

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

...And yet these doping cabals can keep their yaps shut...

This is fatuous.

Criminal investigators working in tandem with intelligence agencies and foreign counterparts don't need to extract a written confession from you if they've already bagged your data.

Why has Hilton Clarke never served a doping ban?

B/c he was probably my most security conscious client and understood proper trade-craft. If he had been sloppy or less risk-averse, then there very well may have been enough data-derived evidence for USADA to believe that conviction for a non-analytical positive was sufficiently likely as to be worth the resource expenditure to pursue. Didn't matter what I said or did (even if that was nothing or everything) - I wasn't the variable that decided his case. Rather, his willingness to invest time and energy into operating in a very security-conscious manner made all the difference.

But we all still know he doped.

The same can't be said about Fabs and motodoping.