The Evidence

[Maxiton]

And look at where JV is at today. Anyone lesser would have given in and said "eff this, they're all cheating, I will just use this for a wasp sting". I applaude JV for fighting the good fight and for helping kids to avoid drugs.

Actually, if you read Vaughters recent admissions he fought within the team to be given a TUE for a (non-existent) knee problem - which was allowed under the rules at the time. This would have cleared up the eye swelling but his team manager wouldn't hear of it. So the Cofidis team manager gets the credit for integrity in this situation, not Vaughters. (Vaughters, however, gets credit for admitting this.)

 

[Maxiton]

A deal was shopped that included flipping on Pat and Hein. Ultimately Pat and Hein offered what was thought to be the better deal.....Stupid move.

Fascinating. That would explain a lot. OMG, it would have been fantastic if he'd flipped on these two. He really should have, for everyone's sake.

So what kind of deal did Pat and Hein offer?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I hope the evidence gets better than tidibts dribbled out like this in news articles.

The USADA needs to write a devastating report that brings everything together.

Disagree. They need a Sports Illustrated/Wall St. Journal to summarize. People like it better if it's structured like a news story. The slow drip out of USADA works great. The flip side of that is a WikiLeaks-style dump and most journalists are too lazy to sift through unstructured information.

Their credibility has been questioned, and Armstrong is currently engaged in a smear campaign against the agency and the anti-doping framework in general. Waiting three months for arbitration to complete for Bruyneel and the others would give Armstrong three months to shape public opinion. That would be hard to change. The agency needs to act before it is too late.

But, they've got the IOC on their side. On top of that, I got the distinct impression listening to Tygart that they know full well they cannot possibly counter the enormous amount of resources Wonderboy and Team are bringing. They can only work within the teeeny tiiiiny sliver of authority they've got and hope for the best.

The IOC will be watching very closely as this cannot threaten the perception that Olympic Sports are aggressive about anti-doping enforcement. I agree with another long-buried post that the fact that IOC recognized tennis immediately implemented one of USADA's bans strongly suggests the IOC is not messing around.

 

[python]

how much more visual evidence is needed

 

[ultimobici]

Disagree. They need a Sports Illustrated/Wall St. Journal to summarize. People like it better if it's structured like a news story. The slow drip out of USADA works great. The flip side of that is a WikiLeaks-style dump and most journalists are too lazy to sift through unstructured information.



But, they've got the IOC on their side. On top of that, I got the distinct impression listening to Tygart that they know full well they cannot possibly counter the enormous amount of resources Wonderboy and Team are bringing. They can only work within the teeeny tiiiiny sliver of authority they've got and hope for the best.

The IOC will be watching very closely as this cannot threaten the perception that Olympic Sports are aggressive about anti-doping enforcement. I agree with another long-buried post that the fact that IOC recognized tennis immediately implemented one of USADA's bans strongly suggests the IOC is not messing around.

They have WADA on their side, not the IOC. The IOC is where Verbruggen went once he'd rigged the UCI Presidential succession to install McQuaid as his puppet. Methinks Pat is being manoeuvred into taking the fall for Verbruggen somehow.

 

[the big ring]

how much more visual evidence is needed

Coz all the cool kids walk around with a pen attached to their tshirt, right?

 

[Arnout]

Mayo was never sick. Something happened between the DL and the Tour. Mayo literally got off his bike at one point. His team had to convince him to get back on.

He certainly lost his secret "abilities" of the email was sent.

Interesting. We know the UCI warned Euskaltel that the values of many of their riders were very suspicious (testosterone if I'm not mistaken), before the Tour. In reaction, Euskaltel fired their doctor and were nowhere anymore for the next year. Not only Mayo, also Zubeldia.

Would the UCI be this dirty?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Interesting. We know the UCI warned Euskaltel that the values of many of their riders were very suspicious (testosterone if I'm not mistaken), before the Tour. In reaction, Euskaltel fired their doctor and were nowhere anymore for the next year. Not only Mayo, also Zubeldia.

Would the UCI be this dirty?

The email was sent in 2003, not 2004, when Mayo really cracked LA in the Dauphinee Libere.

Euskaltel did have a nice drop of in results at the Tour after 2003.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/2073/Spanish-police-intercepts-doping-text-messages.aspx

Spanish police intercepts doping text messages
by Bjorn Haake at 5:55 PM EST

Spanish police intercepted several text messages that seem to confirm cycling doctor Jesús Losa was involved in doping practices. Losa's house was recently searched, but he was warned and potentially able to remove evidence.

One SMS was supposedly sent by a former Tour de France winner, according to the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, which quotes Spanish paper Intervíu. "With the scare from the Tour I had enough. Fortunately I am not ambitious and didn't take any of the stuff you sent to me - you were on the verge of sending me to unemployment and ruining my career... I won't pay a single euro anymore."

Intervíu also named riders, such as Francisco Mancebo (Rock Racing). He is supposed to have sent a text message to Losa on January 28, 2009. "Call me, so we can meet for dinner and what you can bring for me; we have a crisis."

Interesting was another text message from an unidentified person to Losa: "Your friend won Paris-Nice." Losa replied, "There he was like a champion." Although it is not clear which year the message was referring to, the Intervíu thinks the rider in question is Luis León Sánchez (Caisse d'Epargne).

Losa was a team doctor for Euskaltel-Euskadi, but was fired in 2004, after David Millar accused Losa of supporting doping practices. Moisés Dueñas, who was willing to cooperate for a lighter sentencing, also accused Losa. Dueñas detailed how Losa instructed him how to take certain substances. "Losa told me that I would never test positive, if I follow his instructions."

After being fired by Euskaltel, Losa went to Relax, which hired several riders under Puerto suspicion, including Francisco Mancebo, Oscar Sevilla and Santi Pérez.

Losa is currently employed at the regional center for sports medicine (CRMD) in Valladolid, as is his wife, Luisa Fernanda Nurueña. This center has been analyzing blood samples for years and some think that Nurueña had the chance to avoid positive test cases

Perhaps that little email by Lanceboy was indirectly how his mate David Millar got popped.

Do you have a source for that warning?

 

[sniper]

Fascinating. That would explain a lot. OMG, it would have been fantastic if he'd flipped on these two. He really should have, for everyone's sake.

So what kind of deal did Pat and Hein offer?

Exactly. I would have preferred him speaking up, keeping 5 titles, while gently pulling down Hein's and Pat's pants.

The deal? I assume the deal was that UCI would fight for the jurisdiction and, if they'd got it, flush the whole case.

 

[Arnout]

The email was sent in 2003, not 2004, when Mayo really cracked LA in the Dauphinee Libere.

Euskaltel did have a nice drop of in results at the Tour after 2003.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/2073/Spanish-police-intercepts-doping-text-messages.aspx
Perhaps that little email by Lanceboy was indirectly how his mate David Millar got popped.

Do you have a source for that warning?

Will look for it tonight, on the move at the moment.

 

[hrotha]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=420041&postcount=1

I don't think they do this anymore but there are plenty of companies that will. Livestrong has a lot of followers. I understand there was a directive sent out that they should show their support on social media

I see, thanks.

 

[Microchip]

A deal was shopped that included flipping on Pat and Hein. Ultimately Pat and Hein offered what was thought to be the better deal.....Stupid move.

On whose part?

 

[sniper]

On whose part?

On LA's part.

In retrospect: The deal with P&H -- they claim jurisdiction and LA doesn't turn on them -- was clearly a bad idea because (a) it was bound to fail, (b) LA now looses all his 7 tdfs, where he could have kept 5 and (c) P&H will get their as§es exposed anyway.

 

[Race Radio]

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/37234392/

Armstrong Elevated Hcg levels were ignored by the UCI

From then on Armstrong bragged to friends he "Owned" the UCI

 

[JPM London]

Previous tour winner in Bjorn haake article

Sorry if I'm dim here - but who would the 'previous tour winner' who stopped working with losa be in the haake article?

 

[Merckx index]

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/37234392/

Armstrong Elevated Hcg levels were ignored by the UCI

From then on Armstrong bragged to friends he "Owned" the UCI

I’m really impressed with the way all this is coming out now. Most of it is not new to me, nor to anyone who has followed LA’s career closely, but all of it coming out again at the same time is bound to have a powerful impact. The sheer weight of it, focused in a few days right after the announcement of sanction, is staggering.

And there is absolutely nothing that could be more damaging to LA than the possibility that his cancer resulted from or was aggravated by doping. It is the one point that trumps the view that his work on cancer buys him forgiveness for everything else. Though it can never be proven in his specific case, we do know that many of these substances have adverse health effects. In addition to the risk of heart attacks, a lot of evidence now suggests that EPO can exacerbate cancer. This is maybe the best argument against “they all did it”. Maybe they all did, but only one of them attained such levels of hypocrisy by doping.

 

[JRTinMA]

On whose part?

On LA's part.

In retrospect: The deal with P&H -- they claim jurisdiction and LA doesn't turn on them -- was clearly a bad idea because (a) it was bound to fail, (b) LA now looses all his 7 tdfs, where he could have kept 5 and (c) P&H will get their as§es exposed anyway.

USADA offered the deal. LA foolishly didn't take it. In fact they would still agree to talk to him today if he provided substantial evidence against the UCI. Does not sound like a witch hunt does it?

 

[Gregga]

I’m really impressed with the way all this is coming out now. Most of it is not new to me, nor to anyone who has followed LA’s career closely, but all of it coming out again at the same time is bound to have a powerful impact. The sheer weight of it, focused in a few days right after the announcement of sanction, is staggering.

And there is absolutely nothing that could be more damaging to LA than the possibility that his cancer resulted from or was aggravated by doping. It is the one point that trumps the view that his work on cancer buys him forgiveness for everything else. Though it can never be proven in his specific case, we do know that many of these substances have adverse health effects. In addition to the risk of heart attacks, a lot of evidence now suggests that EPO can exacerbate cancer. This is maybe the best argument against “they all did it”. Maybe they all did, but only one of them attained such levels of hypocrisy by doping.

I january 1997, the french paper Le Monde already said that the testicle cancer should have been detected by the drug tests... and that it didn't... We know by now that it's probably because the UCI or the US cycling federation didn't want a positive case.

Here's the abstract link (in french, but see the date... january 1997)
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/acheter.cgi?offre=ARCHIVES&type_item=ART_ARCH_30J&objet_id=242907&xtmc=lance_armstrong&xtcr=3

 

[Ferminal]

Sorry if I'm dim here - but who would the 'previous tour winner' who stopped working with losa be in the haake article?

2006 or 2008 "winners" I guess? If the intercept was from a 2009.

 

[Kennf1]

USADA offered the deal. LA foolishly didn't take it. In fact they would still agree to talk to him today if he provided substantial evidence against the UCI. Does not sound like a witch hunt does it?

A "witch hunt" implies the person you are pursuing is innocent. So no, it doesn't sound like a witch hunt.

As for the HcG issue, didn't Walsh bring that up in his book? Does anyone know if they were testing for HcG in the mid-90's?

 

[Turner29]

I january 1997, the french paper Le Monde already said that the testicle cancer should have been detected by the drug tests... and that it didn't... We know by now that it's probably because the UCI or the US cycling federation didn't want a positive case.

Here's the abstract link (in french, but see the date... january 1997)
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/acheter.cgi?offre=ARCHIVES&type_item=ART_ARCH_30J&objet_id=242907&xtmc=lance_armstrong&xtcr=3

Olympian Brian Couser was cleared of a doping violation when it was shown he had testicular cancer.

 

[hrotha]

2006 or 2008 "winners" I guess? If the intercept was from a 2009.

It was Pereiro.

 

[Race Radio]

m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/26/lance-armstrong-doping-whistleblowers?cat=sport&type=article

The witness list will grow, but be filled with people who kept quite for years in order to avoid the harassment Mike, Emma, Betsy, David, and so many others were targets of

 

[BotanyBay]

Apparently Mr. Armstrong was another fan of Tenarife (despite the fact that he owned an altitude tent all of those years). I've never seen it published that he'd ever trained there:

Savoldelli said that he was not part of Armstrong’s training group – “I was only in Tenerife with him once, but he wasn’t at altitude because he was with Sheryl Crow”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/savoldelli-armstrong-made-enemies

And remember people, let us please keep this thread as more of an evidence locker, not a discussion thread. Talk about it in Phase II. That way we can keep the facts all nice and tidy for others to see. We just might need them again.

 

[BotanyBay]

m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/26/lance-armstrong-doping-whistleblowers?cat=sport&type=article

The witness list will grow, but be filled with people who kept quite for years in order to avoid the harassment Mike, Emma, Betsy, David, and so many others were targets of

That link has an extra m in it. Here it is:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/201...-doping-whistleblowers?cat=sport&type=article