The Froome Files, test data only thread

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Ferrari has said that he does not work with any more athletes. "I'm in Pension"

That does not mean that his vast knowledge and many writings are not used by Trainers worldwide. When I sit back and try to look at what is the current state of training,nutrition,altitude camps,race tactics, etc. It looks to me that Il Dottore is/was light years ahead of anyone in the field of sports medicine.

That does not mean he isn't lying.

In any sophisticated criminal organisation, il Capo never meets directly with his criminal actors, but only ever communicates with them through a trusted emissary. Ferrari's downfall (such as it is) largely stems from the fact that he treated his association with the athletes as a medical and/or clinical enterprise, not a criminal one. Meeting and communicating directly with his clients manifestly increased the risk of discovery and exposure, both to him and the client.

Advances in digital technology now make the tools of secure communication and secure payment (cryptocurrency) readily available. Toss in one or two intermediaries (seriatim) to serve as relays and Ferrari vanishes from the transaction chain.

With this much (essentially untraceable) money at play, can you imagine a man with his C.V. would not at least have pondered the possibility? And can you imagine there haven't been specialists in such technical matters (and willing to get dirt on their hands) who have approached him to offer their services? Presuming, that is, he didn't seek them out on his own initiative.

Ferrari has (was) being using his son Stefano for sometime, probably 15 years. There is no direct contact. Even back in 2010 with Armstrong Stefano was the point of contact (his English is much better as well).

Stefano is Monaco based for what is worth..

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Ferrari has said that he does not work with any more athletes. "I'm in Pension"

That does not mean that his vast knowledge and many writings are not used by Trainers worldwide. When I sit back and try to look at what is the current state of training,nutrition,altitude camps,race tactics, etc. It looks to me that Il Dottore is/was light years ahead of anyone in the field of sports medicine.

That does not mean he isn't lying.

In any sophisticated criminal organisation, il Capo never meets directly with his criminal actors, but only ever communicates with them through a trusted emissary. Ferrari's downfall (such as it is) largely stems from the fact that he treated his association with the athletes as a medical and/or clinical enterprise, not a criminal one. Meeting and communicating directly with his clients manifestly increased the risk of discovery and exposure, both to him and the client.

Advances in digital technology now make the tools of secure communication and secure payment (cryptocurrency) readily available. Toss in one or two intermediaries (seriatim) to serve as relays and Ferrari vanishes from the transaction chain.

With this much (essentially untraceable) money at play, can you imagine a man with his C.V. would not at least have pondered the possibility? And can you imagine there haven't been specialists in such technical matters (and willing to get dirt on their hands) who have approached him to offer their services? Presuming, that is, he didn't seek them out on his own initiative.

I dont remember Ferrari going to jail. He got banned twice from sport.......Did the Guardia di Finanzia ever take a look at his earnings?

I also guess he is still working, through intermediaries.

 

[acoggan]

Re:

Amazing - Andrew on here knocking Ferrari - whilst constantly defending Coyle - wtf...

Never send a (doping) doctor to do an exercise physiologist's job.

Ferrari yaps about lack of cadence data and Froome's unusually low heart rate, but neither would have provided any indication whatsoever re. his performance ability, and the latter was already well-known.

More generally, the whole exercise was a waste of time and energy (as I told Simon Jones of Team Sky when he called me on the rest day of last year's TdF to ask what I thought of Froome's suggestion to pursue physiological testing). The physiological abilities to win the Tour are well-established; given that Froome has done so, it follows that he must possess those abilities. Furthermore, physiological testing can't reveal whether he came about them naturally or artificially.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Ferrari has said that he does not work with any more athletes. "I'm in Pension"

That does not mean that his vast knowledge and many writings are not used by Trainers worldwide. When I sit back and try to look at what is the current state of training,nutrition,altitude camps,race tactics, etc. It looks to me that Il Dottore is/was light years ahead of anyone in the field of sports medicine.

That does not mean he isn't lying.

In any sophisticated criminal organisation, il Capo never meets directly with his criminal actors, but only ever communicates with them through a trusted emissary. Ferrari's downfall (such as it is) largely stems from the fact that he treated his association with the athletes as a medical and/or clinical enterprise, not a criminal one. Meeting and communicating directly with his clients manifestly increased the risk of discovery and exposure, both to him and the client.

Advances in digital technology now make the tools of secure communication and secure payment (cryptocurrency) readily available. Toss in one or two intermediaries (seriatim) to serve as relays and Ferrari vanishes from the transaction chain.

With this much (essentially untraceable) money at play, can you imagine a man with his C.V. would not at least have pondered the possibility? And can you imagine there haven't been specialists in such technical matters (and willing to get dirt on their hands) who have approached him to offer their services? Presuming, that is, he didn't seek them out on his own initiative.

I dont remember Ferrari going to jail. He got banned twice from sport.......Did the Guardia di Finanzia ever take a look at his earnings?

I also guess he is still working, through intermediaries.

He has been to court several time, one time sentenced and then cleared. Tax exasion came up at some point but was never proven.

In October 2004, Michele Ferrari was sentenced to one-year prison (suspended) and a fine of 900 euros, for sporting fraud and abusive exercise of the profession of pharmacist. Ferrari's conviction in Italian court was based partly on testimony from Italian bicycle racer Filippo Simeoni. Admitting he had been doped since 1993, Simeoni told how he became affiliated with Ferrari in 1996. Simeoni testified that, in addition to a prescription of EPO hormone, "we spoke about Andriol (testosterone), which I was to use after hard training sessions, with the aim of increasing my muscular power. Dr. Ferrari recommended I use Emagel the morning before controls, and another product to decrease my hematocrit." Ferrari argued, in his defense: "Andriol is easily detectable for several days in a normal urine test, so, it is impossible that I suggested he take one Andriol 20 hours before another race."

Lance Armstrong responded to Ferrari's guilty verdict for malpractice in the Italian Court case:

"I was disappointed to learn of the Italian court's judgment against Dr. Michele Ferrari. Dr. Ferrari has been a longtime friend and trusted adviser to me and the USPS team, during which time he never suggested, prescribed or provided me with any performance-enhancing drugs... However, I have always said that I have zero tolerance for anyone convicted of using or facilitating the use of performance-enhancing drugs. As a result of today's developments, the USPS team and I have suspended our professional affiliation with Dr. Ferrari as we await the release of the full verdict..."


Ferrari then announced his intention to appeal his sentence. Ferrari was acquitted of all charges against him on May 27, 2006, because, according to the court, "the facts do not exist" to support the charges

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Amazing - Andrew on here knocking Ferrari - whilst constantly defending Coyle - wtf...

Never send a (doping) doctor to do an exercise physiologist's job.

Ferrari yaps about lack of cadence data and Froome's unusually low heart rate, but neither would have provided any indication whatsoever re. his performance ability, and the latter was already well-known.

More generally, the whole exercise was a waste of time and energy (as I told Simon Jones of Team Sky when he called me on the rest day of last year's TdF to ask what I thought of Froome's suggestion to pursue physiological testing). The physiological abilities to win the Tour are well-established; given that Froome has done so, it follows that he must possess those abilities. Furthermore, physiological testing can't reveal whether he came about them naturally or artificially.

Maybe Ferrari blogs to obfuscate.

Guy certainly knows how to dope riders;

Lance Armstrong, Michael Rogers, Alexander Vinokourov, Michele Scarponi, Denis Menchov, Giovanni Visconti, Yaroslav Popovych, Alessandro Bertolini, Gianluca Bortolami, Gianni Bugno, Mario Cipollini, Claudio Chiappucci, Roman Kreuziger, Cadel Evans, Armand de Las Cuevas, Fernando Escartín, Gianni Faresin, Giorgio Furlan, Ivan Gotti, Andreas Kappes, Kevin Livingston, Eddy Mazzoleni, Axel Merckx, Thomas Dekker, Abraham Olano, Daniele Pontoni, Tony Rominger, Paolo Savoldelli, Filippo Simeoni, Pavel Tonkov, Enrico Zaina and Beat Zberg all think highly off him.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Amazing - Andrew on here knocking Ferrari - whilst constantly defending Coyle - wtf...

Never send a (doping) doctor to do an exercise physiologist's job.

Ferrari yaps about lack of cadence data and Froome's unusually low heart rate, but neither would have provided any indication whatsoever re. his performance ability, and the latter was already well-known.

More generally, the whole exercise was a waste of time and energy (as I told Simon Jones of Team Sky when he called me on the rest day of last year's TdF to ask what I thought of Froome's suggestion to pursue physiological testing). The physiological abilities to win the Tour are well-established; given that Froome has done so, it follows that he must possess those abilities. Furthermore, physiological testing can't reveal whether he came about them naturally or artificially.

Maybe Ferrari blogs to obfuscate.

Guy certainly knows how to dope riders;

Lance Armstrong, Michael Rogers, Alexander Vinokourov, Michele Scarponi, Denis Menchov, Giovanni Visconti, Yaroslav Popovych, Alessandro Bertolini, Gianluca Bortolami, Gianni Bugno, Mario Cipollini, Claudio Chiappucci, Roman Kreuziger, Cadel Evans, Armand de Las Cuevas, Fernando Escartín, Gianni Faresin, Giorgio Furlan, Ivan Gotti, Andreas Kappes, Kevin Livingston, Eddy Mazzoleni, Axel Merckx, Thomas Dekker, Abraham Olano, Daniele Pontoni, Tony Rominger, Paolo Savoldelli, Filippo Simeoni, Pavel Tonkov, Enrico Zaina and Beat Zberg all think highly off him.

saucepans
enid blyton
faraway tree

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

The physiological abilities to win the Tour are well-established; given that Froome has done so, it follows that he must possess those abilities. Furthermore, physiological testing can't reveal whether he came about them naturally or artificially.

If he's on the same program during the testing as during the race, that may well be true. If he's not, then maybe testing can reveal some discrepancies. In fact, Ferrari is right that there is a major discrepancy between what Froome claims for the Madone climb and his test results reported last year, and a similar discrepancy exists for some of LA's tests and many of his performances in the TDF.

Here's a question for you, Andy: Are you aware of any rider who has put out > 6.5 watts/kg for > 30 minutes in the lab? Apparently multiple riders have accomplished this on the road, not just the Madone (times for which of course are not official), but on ADH and other famous climbs. And of course those times occurred deep into a grueling GT, and usually at the end of a stage with multiple other tough climbs.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Amazing - Andrew on here knocking Ferrari - whilst constantly defending Coyle - wtf...

Never send a (doping) doctor to do an exercise physiologist's job.

Ferrari yaps about lack of cadence data and Froome's unusually low heart rate, but neither would have provided any indication whatsoever re. his performance ability, and the latter was already well-known.

More generally, the whole exercise was a waste of time and energy (as I told Simon Jones of Team Sky when he called me on the rest day of last year's TdF to ask what I thought of Froome's suggestion to pursue physiological testing). The physiological abilities to win the Tour are well-established; given that Froome has done so, it follows that he must possess those abilities. Furthermore, physiological testing can't reveal whether he came about them naturally or artificially.

acoogan
not suggesting that cadence is specifically important here but does it not contribute to the wider oxygen doping backdrop? Forgive my exercise physiology limitations in understanding but I was given to the impression that if you could deliver an abundance of oxygen then you performed more efficiently at low loads i.e. high cadence. So, all other things being equal we would expect, with an increase in oxygen doping, higher cadences?

Ferrari's most famous rider pointedly increased his cadence and so perhaps in his, as you argue, less scientific mind, he attributes (high) cadence as a constituent part of harvesting the gains of oxygen doping?

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Ferrari is right that there is a major discrepancy between what Froome claims for the Madone climb and his test results reported last year

Are you referring to this statement of Ferrari's?

"The value of AT4 = 419w is definitely an underestimation by approximately 10% of the value recorded by Froome in a road test"

If so, that's not a discrepancy, it's a non-sequitor.

Here's a question for you, Andy: Are you aware of any rider who has put out > 6.5 watts/kg for > 30 minutes in the lab? Apparently multiple riders have accomplished this on the road, not just the Madone (times for which of course are not official), but on ADH and other famous climbs. And of course those times occurred deep into a grueling GT, and usually at the end of a stage with multiple other tough climbs.

No, but then again 1) not many cyclists (pro or otherwise) ever torture themselves on ergometers that way, and 2) even if they did, I'm generally not privvy to that sort of data such that I would necessarily be aware of it.

I suppose other factors to consider are 1) motivation in competition vs. testing, 2) possible differences in inertial loading conditions between climbing and an ergometer, and 3) the ability to distribute some of the metabolic demand to upper body musculature by climbing out of the saddle (although Froome generally climbs seated, doesn't he?).

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

acoogan
not suggesting that cadence is specifically important here but does it not contribute to the wider oxygen doping backdrop? Forgive my exercise physiology limitations in understanding but I was given to the impression that if you could deliver an abundance of oxygen then you performed more efficiently at low loads i.e. high cadence. So, all other things being equal we would expect, with an increase in oxygen doping, higher cadences?

Ferrari's most famous rider pointedly increased his cadence and so perhaps in his, as you argue, less scientific mind, he attributes (high) cadence as a constituent part of harvesting the gains of oxygen doping?

Clearly, Ferrari thinks knowing Froome's cadence during the lab tests would be important. That's partially why I said he came across as pretty clueless.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

Are you referring to this statement of Ferrari's?

"The value of AT4 = 419w is definitely an underestimation by approximately 10% of the value recorded by Froome in a road test"

If so, that's not a discrepancy, it's a non-sequitor.

Why is it a non-sequitur? His point is that Froome has performed significantly better on the road. I agree with you that competition probably brings out a better performance, but again, there are disadvantages on the road, too. Not only that these climbs are almost never performed completely rested, but just the distractions of a race. In the lab, a rider can focus entirely on pushing the pedals. He doesn’t have to look at the other riders or the road, worry about changing directions or road conditions or speed. (Froome, in fact, appears to try to race in just this way, as if he were in an isolated environment). IOW, on the road, there is some mental energy expended on factors that don’t actually increase speed.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Are you referring to this statement of Ferrari's?

"The value of AT4 = 419w is definitely an underestimation by approximately 10% of the value recorded by Froome in a road test"

If so, that's not a discrepancy, it's a non-sequitor.

Why is it a non-sequitur? His point is that Froome has performed significantly better on the road.

In cyclists, maximal steady-state intensity is typically significantly greater than that resulting in a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L. The fact that Froome's power while climbing the Madone is higher than his power at OBLA (AT4) during a lab test is therefore not at all surprising (and hence not really worthy of comment...but Ferrari emphasizes it nonetheless).

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

Are you referring to this statement of Ferrari's?

"The value of AT4 = 419w is definitely an underestimation by approximately 10% of the value recorded by Froome in a road test"

If so, that's not a discrepancy, it's a non-sequitor.

Why is it a non-sequitur? His point is that Froome has performed significantly better on the road.

In cyclists, maximal steady-state intensity is typically significantly greater than that resulting in a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L. The fact that Froome's power while climbing the Madone is higher than his power at OBLA (AT4) during a lab test is therefore not at all surprising (and hence not really worthy of comment...but Ferrari emphasizes it nonetheless).

You can ask directly the guy in the link I posted. Just go to the "forum" section. If you do it, post the answer here, it would be good.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

In cyclists, maximal steady-state intensity is typically significantly greater than that resulting in a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L. The fact that Froome's power while climbing the Madone is higher than his power at OBLA (AT4) during a lab test is therefore not at all surprising (and hence not really worthy of comment...but Ferrari emphasizes it nonetheless).

There are numerous studies of elite cyclists reporting that W at OBLA is nearly 90% of maximum W, so you can hardly dismiss the discrepancy between Froome’s Madone power and his lab test power as largely explainable by going deeper into lactate accumulation:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Javier_Orbananos/publication/12539656_Exercise_intensity_during_competition_time_trials_in_professional_road_cycling/links/0deec52fd0ae8763ca000000.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Javier_Orbananos/publication/12011773_Exercise_intensity_and_load_during_mass-start_stage_races_in_professional_road_cycling/links/0deec52fd0aebe40fd000000.pdf

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/33/3/178.short

http://jap.physiology.org/content/89/4/1522.short

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

In cyclists, maximal steady-state intensity is typically significantly greater than that resulting in a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/L. The fact that Froome's power while climbing the Madone is higher than his power at OBLA (AT4) during a lab test is therefore not at all surprising (and hence not really worthy of comment...but Ferrari emphasizes it nonetheless).

There are numerous studies of elite cyclists reporting that W at OBLA is nearly 90% of maximum W, so you can hardly dismiss the discrepancy between Froome’s Madone power and his lab test power as largely explainable by going deeper into lactate accumulation:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Javier_Orbananos/publication/12539656_Exercise_intensity_during_competition_time_trials_in_professional_road_cycling/links/0deec52fd0ae8763ca000000.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Javier_Orbananos/publication/12011773_Exercise_intensity_and_load_during_mass-start_stage_races_in_professional_road_cycling/links/0deec52fd0aebe40fd000000.pdf

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/33/3/178.short

http://jap.physiology.org/content/89/4/1522.short

You should study up a bit more. The first two papers rely on heart rate, which is almost invariably higher in competition than during an incremental exercise test done in a lab. The third did measure power, but doesn't directly address the issue, whereas the last is a case study, i.e., n=1.

To reiterate: maximal steady-state intensity in cyclists is typically significantly higher than OBLA. As but just one example (although a pretty typical one), the cyclists in this study were able to maintain an exercise intensity resulting in blood lactate levels of almost 7 mmol/L during a simulated 40 km TT:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11934457_Methods_for_estimating_the_maximal_lactate_steady_state_in_trained_cyclists

Froome's data therefore aren't at all surprising, and only somebody without an adequate grasp on such matters would bother to comment on the difference (not discrepancy).

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

You should study up a bit more. The first two papers rely on heart rate, which is almost invariably higher in competition than during an incremental exercise test done in a lab. The third did measure power, but doesn't directly address the issue, whereas the last is a case study, i.e., n=1.

To reiterate: maximal steady-state intensity in cyclists is typically significantly higher than OBLA. As but just one example (although a pretty typical one), the cyclists in this study were able to maintain an exercise intensity resulting in blood lactate levels of almost 7 mmol/L during a simulated 40 km TT:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11934457_Methods_for_estimating_the_maximal_lactate_steady_state_in_trained_cyclists

Froome's data therefore aren't at all surprising, and only somebody without an adequate grasp on such matters would bother to comment on the difference (not discrepancy).

I’m not disputing that higher sustained lactate levels may be attained than as defined at OBLA. I’m aware that there are quite a few studies making this point. The question is, how much extra power is generated at these levels? You have access to far more literature on this issue than I have, so let’s cut to the chase: Can you provide links to studies that determine how much greater sustainable power may be than power as measured at OBLA? If you can, then perhaps we can resolve this issue of whether or not Froome’s road results present a discrepancy with respect to his lab tests. If you can’t, then we can debate this all day, but there won’t be a firm conclusion either way.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

acoogan
not suggesting that cadence is specifically important here but does it not contribute to the wider oxygen doping backdrop? Forgive my exercise physiology limitations in understanding but I was given to the impression that if you could deliver an abundance of oxygen then you performed more efficiently at low loads i.e. high cadence. So, all other things being equal we would expect, with an increase in oxygen doping, higher cadences?

Ferrari's most famous rider pointedly increased his cadence and so perhaps in his, as you argue, less scientific mind, he attributes (high) cadence as a constituent part of harvesting the gains of oxygen doping?

Clearly, Ferrari thinks knowing Froome's cadence during the lab tests would be important. That's partially why I said he came across as pretty clueless.

acoogan...indeed...but do you think he comes across as pretty clueless only because he references cadence during the tests or because he references it at all? i.e. do you think there is any link (lab/road/wherever) between increased cadence and oxygen doping? As a non-scientific bystander, increased cadence in the bunch correlates with epo...and some of the more 'suspect' riders have particularly high cadence.....

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re: Re:

I dont remember Ferrari going to jail. He got banned twice from sport.......Did the Guardia di Finanzia ever take a look at his earnings?...

AFAIK he only ever was convicted once in court of law, in 2004, fined and given suspended sentence, but all convictions were overturned either on merit or technical reasons.

I also guess he is still working, through intermediaries.

Even after Pharmstrong's "Come to Jesus" confession on live telly, Ferrari continued to protest his innocense, even tried to exculpate both himself and the the Uniballer by claiming His Lanceness's "suspicious" blood values were attainable entirely through altitude training. Considering what we have learnt of the man's character (as well as his intellect) in the past 20 years, I think it reasonable to presume that absence of evidence, particularly in this instance, is not evidence of absence.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

acoogan
not suggesting that cadence is specifically important here but does it not contribute to the wider oxygen doping backdrop? Forgive my exercise physiology limitations in understanding but I was given to the impression that if you could deliver an abundance of oxygen then you performed more efficiently at low loads i.e. high cadence. So, all other things being equal we would expect, with an increase in oxygen doping, higher cadences?

Ferrari's most famous rider pointedly increased his cadence and so perhaps in his, as you argue, less scientific mind, he attributes (high) cadence as a constituent part of harvesting the gains of oxygen doping?

Clearly, Ferrari thinks knowing Froome's cadence during the lab tests would be important. That's partially why I said he came across as pretty clueless.

acoogan...indeed...but do you think he comes across as pretty clueless only because he references cadence during the tests or because he references it at all? i.e. do you think there is any link (lab/road/wherever) between increased cadence and oxygen doping? As a non-scientific bystander, increased cadence in the bunch correlates with epo...and some of the more 'suspect' riders have particularly high cadence.....

All a higher cadence suggests is one is using a smaller gear at the same speed.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

acoogan
not suggesting that cadence is specifically important here but does it not contribute to the wider oxygen doping backdrop? Forgive my exercise physiology limitations in understanding but I was given to the impression that if you could deliver an abundance of oxygen then you performed more efficiently at low loads i.e. high cadence. So, all other things being equal we would expect, with an increase in oxygen doping, higher cadences?

Ferrari's most famous rider pointedly increased his cadence and so perhaps in his, as you argue, less scientific mind, he attributes (high) cadence as a constituent part of harvesting the gains of oxygen doping?

Clearly, Ferrari thinks knowing Froome's cadence during the lab tests would be important. That's partially why I said he came across as pretty clueless.

acoogan...indeed...but do you think he comes across as pretty clueless only because he references cadence during the tests or because he references it at all? i.e. do you think there is any link (lab/road/wherever) between increased cadence and oxygen doping? As a non-scientific bystander, increased cadence in the bunch correlates with epo...and some of the more 'suspect' riders have particularly high cadence.....

All a higher cadence suggests is one is using a smaller gear at the same speed.

It does? that is quite the revelation

It actually means much more than a set speed at x revolutions per minute. Each stroke for a given period of time carries a definitive level of power as all power over time is averaged rather than a total, hence why watts p/kg is used.

Thus an average of 450w for a given minute compared to 5 minutes means that each revolution is of a differng power level to hold the 450w average - as to 450w for 20 minutes at 70rpm compared to 120rpm, each stroke has a in the cases holds a differing level of power.

Cadence is very importance indicator of the ability to hold a specific power level of set periods of time.

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

acoogan
not suggesting that cadence is specifically important here but does it not contribute to the wider oxygen doping backdrop? Forgive my exercise physiology limitations in understanding but I was given to the impression that if you could deliver an abundance of oxygen then you performed more efficiently at low loads i.e. high cadence. So, all other things being equal we would expect, with an increase in oxygen doping, higher cadences?

Ferrari's most famous rider pointedly increased his cadence and so perhaps in his, as you argue, less scientific mind, he attributes (high) cadence as a constituent part of harvesting the gains of oxygen doping?

Clearly, Ferrari thinks knowing Froome's cadence during the lab tests would be important. That's partially why I said he came across as pretty clueless.

acoogan...indeed...but do you think he comes across as pretty clueless only because he references cadence during the tests or because he references it at all? i.e. do you think there is any link (lab/road/wherever) between increased cadence and oxygen doping? As a non-scientific bystander, increased cadence in the bunch correlates with epo...and some of the more 'suspect' riders have particularly high cadence.....

All a higher cadence suggests is one is using a smaller gear at the same speed.

It does? that is quite the revelation

It actually means much more than a set speed at x revolutions per minute. Each stroke for a given period of time carries a definitive level of power as all power over time is averaged rather than a total, hence why watts p/kg is used.

Thus an average of 450w for a given minute compared to 5 minutes means that each revolution is of a differng power level to hold the 450w average - as to 450w for 20 minutes at 70rpm compared to 120rpm, each stroke has a in the cases holds a differing level of power.

Cadence is very importance indicator of the ability to hold a specific power level of set periods of time.

No it doesn't. Cadence or rpm is irrelevant to power. The same power can be achieved at any rpm, it simply requires a different torque at the bottom bracket spindle. This is provided by a different load on the pedal(s).

Rotary motors vary in their ability to provide power at any given rpm. Study your car's power profile. It follows the torque profile very closely. This is down to the force they can apply at the crank, or at whatever provides the moment.

Human beings vary in exactly the same respect. Some are more efficient with a lower cadence and higher force, others are the reverse. It's just down to physique, but the actual power produced is exactly the same and independent of rpm and so is the work done/energy used. The only (very) slight difference is that the mechanical parts (hips, knees, ankles, pedal spindle, bottom bracket spindle, chain and sprockets) may have minute differences in their efficiencies at different rpm but this is almost negligible in the range under discussion.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

All a higher cadence suggests is one is using a smaller gear at the same speed.
It does? that is quite the revelation

It actually means much more than a set speed at x revolutions per minute.

No, it doesn't. Cadence is no more or less than a measure of the rotational velocity of the cranks.

Each stroke for a given period of time carries a definitive level of power as all power over time is averaged rather than a total, hence why watts p/kg is used.

This is a meaningless statement.

Power is the rate of doing work. It can be measured as an instantaneous value, or as an average over any time frame you like.

Thus an average of 450w for a given minute compared to 5 minutes means that each revolution is of a differng power level to hold the 450w average - as to 450w for 20 minutes at 70rpm compared to 120rpm, each stroke has a in the cases holds a differing level of power.

Again, this is meaningless twaddle.

Cadence is very importance indicator of the ability to hold a specific power level of set periods of time.

No, it's not. At least not across quite a reasonable range. e.g. I've held same power at 125rpm in a pursuit as I have at 60rpm going up hill for about the same duration.

 

[Night Rider]

When is the full study due to be published?

 

[Irondan]

Re:

When is the full study due to be published?

The exact release date has not yet been made public.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

When is the full study due to be published?

you can be sure it will be carefully released to coincide with some major story to deflect from it....