The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

[hrotha]

Leave people alone to racially abuse their peers. Excellent.

 

[SafeBet]

What really let me down about this whole situation was his interview with an italian newspaper. He seemed genuinely unaware of the difference between a generic insult and a racial slur.

I hope the suspension is without pay.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

What really let me down about this whole situation was his interview with an italian newspaper. He seemed genuinely unaware of the difference between a generic insult and a racial slur.

I hope the suspension is without pay.

Could you elaborate on what he said? That sounds... interesting.

 

[el chava]

Re: Re:

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

How can you know?

How can you know whether me "meant" the racist slur or not?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

How can you know?

How can you know whether me "meant" the racist slur or not?

Would you say something like that without meaning it?
Whether he actually regrets it, we don't know. I don't pretend to know.

 

[el chava]

Re: Re:

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

How can you know?

How can you know whether me "meant" the racist slur or not?

Would you say something like that without meaning it?
Whether he actually regrets it, we don't know. I don't pretend to know.

But how can you say he meant the racist slur and not the regret? I am just saying this is a complex matter and people say silly and obnoxious things all the time. I do think it was very admirable for Kevin Reza to confront him afterwards and also for other riders to call this out (Seb Reichenbach did). But hopefully this would be resolved on a level within the peloton as being not acceptable witout enforcing dubious top-down measures such as "diversity training", which I really doubt will result in anything positive. Maybe even the contrary.

I am not saying the peloton is be trusted with anything (hey it had a bad record for Omertá behaviour), but I somehow think this has changed. Otherwise the UCI could step in.

 

[tobydawq]

Before Saturday I had never seen nor heard the word "slur" in another sense than speaking like when under the influence.

Now I have seen it 70 trillion times.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

How can you know?

How can you know whether me "meant" the racist slur or not?

Would you say something like that without meaning it?
Whether he actually regrets it, we don't know. I don't pretend to know.

But how can you say he meant the racist slur and not the regret? I am just saying this is a complex matter and people say silly and obnoxious things all the time. I do think it was very admirable for Kevin Reza to confront him afterwards and also for other riders to call this out (Seb Reichenbach did). But hopefully this would be resolved on a level within the peloton as being not acceptable witout enforcing dubious top-down measures such as "diversity training", which I really doubt will result in anything positive. Maybe even the contrary.

I am not saying the peloton is be trusted with anything (hey it had a bad record for Omertá behaviour), but I somehow think this has changed. Otherwise the UCI could step in.

I'm not saying he doesn't regret it or his apology wasn't honest. I'm saying we don't know.
However, I'm convinced you don't come up with racist slur if you don't mean it at least partially. Of course, adrenaline, anger, frustration can make you say stupid things you wouldn't otherwise say, but it has to be in somewhere your subconcious.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I'm not saying he doesn't regret it or his apology wasn't honest. I'm saying we don't know.
However, I'm convinced you don't come up with racist slur if you don't mean it at least partially. Of course, adrenaline, anger, frustration can make you say stupid things you wouldn't otherwise say, but it has to be in somewhere your subconcious.

Exactly. Most people easily go through their life without racially abusing anyone. It's not the kind of thing that just slips out when angry; unless you're racist.

Like you say, it's impossible to know his motivation for apologising. He has no choice but to apologise if he wants to save his career, so of course he's going to do it. There's no way of knowing if it is genuine remorse or just a pragmatic decision.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Anyway, per twitter, he's received a six week suspension, will attend a diversity awareness course and will be fired if it happens again.

Which rather nicely coincides with a break he was likely to need after a long and arduous classics campaign.

55 days until the next race he was supposed to ride. Which is 7 weeks.
And of course they didn't pull him when he did the deed, they waited until the race was over.

Of all the ****** they've pulled over the years, this is the one that pisses me off. Sky are just so devoid of anything even resembling fair play.

Yep, it's laughable how obvious it was that it would play out like this. They really are a disgrace of a team. Everything is just spin and trying to save face when they keep getting caught out, but without ever being prepared to take a proper hit for their actions. Just a team utterly devoid of any ethics or commitment to anything other than themselves.

It's far, far better than Orica who took no action and dismissed it with the typical Aussie "bit of banter" attitude (sorry Aussies who aren't actually like this).

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Anyway, per twitter, he's received a six week suspension, will attend a diversity awareness course and will be fired if it happens again.

Which rather nicely coincides with a break he was likely to need after a long and arduous classics campaign.

55 days until the next race he was supposed to ride. Which is 7 weeks.
And of course they didn't pull him when he did the deed, they waited until the race was over.

Of all the ****** they've pulled over the years, this is the one that pisses me off. Sky are just so devoid of anything even resembling fair play.

Jesus, that's embarrassing

 

[Echoes]

Why is taking no action a worse attitude?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Anyway, per twitter, he's received a six week suspension, will attend a diversity awareness course and will be fired if it happens again.

Which rather nicely coincides with a break he was likely to need after a long and arduous classics campaign.

55 days until the next race he was supposed to ride. Which is 7 weeks.
And of course they didn't pull him when he did the deed, they waited until the race was over.

Of all the ****** they've pulled over the years, this is the one that pisses me off. Sky are just so devoid of anything even resembling fair play.

Yep, it's laughable how obvious it was that it would play out like this. They really are a disgrace of a team. Everything is just spin and trying to save face when they keep getting caught out, but without ever being prepared to take a proper hit for their actions. Just a team utterly devoid of any ethics or commitment to anything other than themselves.

It's far, far better than Orica who took no action and dismissed it with the typical Aussie "bit of banter" attitude (sorry Aussies who aren't actually like this).

It is a slightly different situation. Albasini denied using racist abuse, said it was a misunderstanding or translation error or something. Perhaps Orica believed him and felt there was no case to answer.

Sky and Moscon have both admitted he used racist abuse. And then have decided on a punishment that basically has no negative impact on either the team or the rider. So Sky demonstrably believe that racist abuse is not a sackable offence.

 

[Echoes]

It's a sackable offence ???

 

[LaFlorecita]

Come on Echoes, you don't seriously condone racist abuse, do you?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

For the record, the other precedent there is comes from the 2015 Österreich Rundfahrt, when Branislau Samoilau was fined a month's salary for using racist language towards Natnael Berhane. As the abuse was apparently in English, Samoilau claimed a linguistic problem was responsible. The race officials asked Berhane if he wanted the Belarusian thrown out, but Berhane declined the offer. Samoilau's fine was paid to the MTN-Qhubeka charity.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I dont get the Sky-hate here. Had it been Jonathan Dibben, they would maybe have been more harsh about it, but I think that goes for just about any other team in the sport. You don't suspend him for the rest of the season or fire him when he is this big of a talent, I think thats the harsh truth and honestly, I can really fault Sky for that.

What did Orica do? Better than nothing, I think. That said, its pretty typical of Sky... you know, suspending him in his rest period and not throwing him out of Romandie. Oh well.

 

[Echoes]

Re:

Come on Echoes, you don't seriously condone racist abuse, do you?

Certainly not. If you've read my first reaction, you'd know that I've been quite clear about it. However the reactions to it seem so disproportionated given the fact that the two protagonists have settled things out among themselves. For me it should be a case closed. As was said above there's no need of a top-down measure (fortunately it only came from inside the team, not public authorities ... yet?) Obviously I don't agree with you about the fact that racism is necessarily in his subconscious. We don't know. I've heard similar unfortunate comments from people I know very well and am sure were not racist. I don't think I could happen to if I ever have a feud with a colour-skinned person but unfortunately it can happen to some.

And really I cannot believe I read "diversity awareness training". It's really as if he had a sick mind...

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

How can you know?

How can you know whether me "meant" the racist slur or not?

Would you say something like that without meaning it?
Whether he actually regrets it, we don't know. I don't pretend to know.

But how can you say he meant the racist slur and not the regret? I am just saying this is a complex matter and people say silly and obnoxious things all the time. I do think it was very admirable for Kevin Reza to confront him afterwards and also for other riders to call this out (Seb Reichenbach did). But hopefully this would be resolved on a level within the peloton as being not acceptable witout enforcing dubious top-down measures such as "diversity training", which I really doubt will result in anything positive. Maybe even the contrary.

I am not saying the peloton is be trusted with anything (hey it had a bad record for Omertá behaviour), but I somehow think this has changed. Otherwise the UCI could step in.

As it was a violation of a UCI code, the UCI should have stepped in anyway. The team can have it's own face saving, PR inspired punishment, but the UCI has a responsibility to enforce it's laws and codes of conduct. The UCI and it's boss, Clarkson's, silence in the matter is not surprising but still is disappointing. I would think that every international sports federation has a code that makes racial intimidation unlawful with a range of penalties and fines in place depending on the frequency.

Edit: Article 6.1 to be exact

 

[Angliru]

Re:

I dont get the Sky-hate here. Had it been Jonathan Dibben, they would maybe have been more harsh about it, but I think that goes for just about any other team in the sport. You don't suspend him for the rest of the season or fire him when he is this big of a talent, I think thats the harsh truth and honestly, I can really fault Sky for that.

What did Orica do? Better than nothing, I think. That said, its pretty typical of Sky... you know, suspending him in his rest period and not throwing him out of Romandie. Oh well.

The dislike for Sky existed long before this happened and is only enhanced with their actions (or inaction). What is there not to get?

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

Could you elaborate on what he said? That sounds... interesting.

Well the whole interview seems full of... unawareness. He actually comes accros like a person that doesn't really understand what racism is and why it is so serious, the kind of person who would benefit from a diversity awareness course (whatever this means).

He repeatedly claims he's not a racist, even that his reaction was not racist because when you're riding at 50km/h you don't think about one's colour of skin.
He says he apologised at the end of the stage and Reza was cool, that he doesn't understand why Reichenbach took it to Twitter and that the whole FDJ team was relaxed when he and Sky went to the team bus for an official apology.
He was surprised when the media talked about the issue, he even says: "the journalists wanted to mount a case. I know it's big news if you say that a rider is racist, but it wasn't like that".
Then the interviewer asks him if he said a racial slur. And he replies: "I said a word, I know I was wrong and that insulting is unacceptable, but regardless of your skin colour."

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Why is taking no action a worse attitude?

Because it's just a 'who gives a ***' attitude

 

[Ricco']

What a coincidence, the suspension that Sky issued to Moscon was similarly of the same length of the scheduled break on his personal racing program...

God, how I hate public relations and "brand social responsability".

 

[Netserk]

Thanks for the info, SafeBet.

It's (obviously) very disappointing and sad, but that doesn't mean nuances and details aren't still important.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

If someone asked me yesterday what an appropriate punishment would be, I'd probably have agreed that suspension for a month or two, a fine and a warning that any repeat would result in immediate termination would be fair. Sending him on a course for idiots who need to have it explained to them that racially abusing people isn't acceptable seems reasonable enough. I can't say though that I'm very impressed with the team's ethical stance if they have arranged it so that they didn't lose his services during Romandie and won't lose them during his suspension as they were planning to rest him anyway.

From the description of Moscon's interview above, I can only say that I'm particularly impressed by Reichenbach taking a public stand if Moscon really thought the issue was just going to go away quietly.