The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Does anyone even know what Moscon said? Some are judging him pretty hardly based without knowing the true extent of his racist outburst.

Does it matter?

Yes, of course it matters. Who are we to judge not knowing the facts. As Squire and others point out, some of the posters behave like the guy committed a murder. The mob mentality by some are unfitting.

By making un-enlightened statements you're trending towards rocking the same boat as the apparently un-enlightened Moscon.

We do know enough facts though. We know that Moscon made a racially abusive remark; this has been confirmed by his team, who are meeting him today for a disciplinary hearing. And we know that he has acknowledged making a racially abusive remark, becaue he apologised for doing so.

The exact content hardly matters. Imo there is not a hierarchy of racial slurs; one is as bad as any other. It's quite disappointing as well to see so many members of this forum try to play down such an incident or to suggest that Moscon is being scape goated in some way here.

If any of us working in normal jobs went to a conference and racially abused someone from another company, we would be sacked. That's the standard punishment for such an action. Anything less and Moscon has got off lightly, imo he probably will, because he happens to be a very talented bike rider. No-one is suggesting he be sent to prison or banished from cycling forever. But, if we want to eradicate racism, then when a high profile public figure makes a racist remark - the reaction to that has to show that it is completely unacceptable in this day and age. Just accepting his apology and moving on would not be good enough from Sky or the UCI.

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

If any of us working in normal jobs went to a conference and racially abused someone from another company, we would be sacked. That's the standard punishment for such an action. Anything less and Moscon has got off lightly, imo he probably will, because he happens to be a very talented bike rider. No-one is suggesting he be sent to prison or banished from cycling forever. But, if we want to eradicate racism, then when a high profile public figure makes a racist remark - the reaction to that has to show that it is completely unacceptable in this day and age. Just accepting his apology and moving on would not be good enough from Sky or the UCI.

I don't disagree with the severity of the issue but I think you have to be very careful in how these things are dealt with. I strongly believe a lot of the suggestions people have posted here produce the exact opposite effect of fixing racism (e.g firing), they merely work to sweep the issue under the rug.

People are left bitter and learn to keep their views to themselves instead of discussing them and we're just left with a bunch of closet racists and then out of nowhere Trump gets elected by half the population of America because people are not given the opportunity to change their views. :lol: Ok I shouldn't really bring politics into this but most people seem to want to fix the problem on the surface level (ok we've told this guy to shut up and look at this big gesture, surely no one will be racist now!) and then they go home happy.

Honestly I think what's happening now is probably ok, Moscon is being flown to Manchester to sit down to talk about this issue, the UCI is looking at the issue. The press have reported on this incident with multiple stories, the riders are aware of it, so are the fans (as you can see by this thread we are discussing it now). Discussion is good and I think the best course of action. Does it change things immediately? No of course not, but I think it helps shift us in the right direction, adds awareness and you can change peoples views over time.

Firing someone, quite frankly, does not make them less racist. Nor does it make other racists, less racist. That's a rug sweep.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Yes, of course it matters. Who are we to judge not knowing the facts. As Squire and others point out, some of the posters behave like the guy committed a murder. The mob mentality by some are unfitting.

No, a thousand times no. We behave like the guy used racial slurs because that's exactly what he did. No one here is advocating a punishment that's even remotely comparable to what he'd get for murder, or assault, or anything of the sort - it's people like you who are acting like what he did isn't and shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Re: Re:

If any of us working in normal jobs went to a conference and racially abused someone from another company, we would be sacked. That's the standard punishment for such an action. Anything less and Moscon has got off lightly, imo he probably will, because he happens to be a very talented bike rider. No-one is suggesting he be sent to prison or banished from cycling forever. But, if we want to eradicate racism, then when a high profile public figure makes a racist remark - the reaction to that has to show that it is completely unacceptable in this day and age. Just accepting his apology and moving on would not be good enough from Sky or the UCI.

I don't disagree with the severity of the issue but I think you have to be very careful in how these things are dealt with. I strongly believe a lot of the suggestions people have posted here produce the exact opposite effect of fixing racism (e.g firing), they merely work to sweep the issue under the rug.

People are left bitter and learn to keep their views to themselves instead of discussing them and we're just left with a bunch of closet racists and then out of nowhere Trump gets elected by half the population of America because people are not given the opportunity to change their views. :lol: Ok I shouldn't really bring politics into this but most people seem to want to fix the problem on the surface level (ok we've told this guy to shut up and look at this big gesture, surely no one will be racist now!) and then they go home happy.

Honestly I think what's happening now is probably ok, Moscon is being flown to Manchester to sit down to talk about this issue, the UCI is looking at the issue. The press have reported on this incident with multiple stories, the riders are aware of it, so are the fans (as you can see by this thread we are discussing it now). Discussion is good and I think the best course of action. Does it change things immediately? No of course not, but I think it helps shift us in the right direction, adds awareness and you can change peoples views over time.

Firing someone, quite frankly, does not make them less racist. Nor does it make other racists, less racist. That's a rug sweep.

As an American I would just like to point out that Trump was actually elected by about 28% of qualified voters. Thank you, you may continue.

 

[deValtos]

Haha point taken.

 

[Kazistuta]

Re: Re:

Yes, of course it matters. Who are we to judge not knowing the facts. As Squire and others point out, some of the posters behave like the guy committed a murder. The mob mentality by some are unfitting.

No, a thousand times no. We behave like the guy used racial slurs because that's exactly what he did. No one here is advocating a punishment that's even remotely comparable to what he'd get for murder, or assault, or anything of the sort - it's people like you who are acting like what he did isn't and shouldn't be a big deal.

NO, I act like I don't know exactly what he said to justify such harsh reactions, most likely only Moscon and Reza knows - oh well, let's all jump the bandwagon and pull out the torches.

I would just like to point out there's always two sides of a story, acknowledging that usually one side has taken it too far. I think the case has been handled right thus far.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Does anyone even know what Moscon said? Some are judging him pretty hardly based without knowing the true extent of his racist outburst.

Does it matter?

Yes, of course it matters. Who are we to judge not knowing the facts. As Squire and others point out, some of the posters behave like the guy committed a murder. The mob mentality by some are unfitting.

By making un-enlightened statements you're trending towards rocking the same boat as the apparently un-enlightened Moscon.

We do know enough facts though. We know that Moscon made a racially abusive remark; this has been confirmed by his team, who are meeting him today for a disciplinary hearing. And we know that he has acknowledged making a racially abusive remark, becaue he apologised for doing so.

The exact content hardly matters. Imo there is not a hierarchy of racial slurs; one is as bad as any other. It's quite disappointing as well to see so many members of this forum try to play down such an incident or to suggest that Moscon is being scape goated in some way here.

Is it, though? Is it as bad to say that black people are less likely to be willing to work, as it is to say that black people deserve to be killed?

[quote="Kazistuta":1k9tztw0]
Yes, of course it matters. Who are we to judge not knowing the facts. As Squire and others point out, some of the posters behave like the guy committed a murder. The mob mentality by some are unfitting.

No, a thousand times no. We behave like the guy used racial slurs because that's exactly what he did. No one here is advocating a punishment that's even remotely comparable to what he'd get for murder, or assault, or anything of the sort - it's people like you who are acting like what he did isn't and shouldn't be a big deal.[/quote]

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

How can you know?

 

[yaco]

It's more relevant if we look at punishment for racial abuse in other sporting codes - My experience is it's usually a fine or maybe a suspension of between 1 to 4 weeks.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Of course what he did was wrong, and of course he should be punished. But people should also accept that he really meant it when he apologised, and that it - the slur, not the apology - isn't gonna happen again. There's no need to demonise him.

How can you know?

Because I see no reason not to. Because in his entire (though still short) career so far he's never used language like that before. Because there has never been any indication that he's used it in other circumstances.

 

[BYOP88]

Oh my!?!?!? The state of some people in this thread. I'm surprised that no one's said that Moscon was just having "some banter" with Reza and that Reza really should harden the funk up. For me it doesn't matter if Moscon used the "N" word once or said a whole bunch of other stuff, he crossed the line.

Now he won't get sacked by Sky, because he's a hundred million dollar whale for them(he'll win some bike races/help win bike races for them, so has value and won't get sacked because Sky won't want him to win/help win for another team and all Sky care about is winning, otherwise they'd have pulled him from the race when this came out). Now Sky for PR reasons have to be seen to be wanting to "punish him", but also think how long is acceptable to "punish him" and stop him from riding before they can bring him back to do his job without getting hassle from bone idle bankers, like myself.

 

[RedheadDane]

Because Moscon wasn't just having some "banter", and of course Reza shouldn't just "harden up."
Reza had every right to be upset, but that still doesn't mean that Moscon should never be forgiven. Again, Reza seems to have forgiven him - or is at least willing to accept his apology - and to me that's enough.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Enough for what, though? It's not like it's something that we can just sweep under the rug and pretend it never happened.

Anyway, per twitter, he's received a six week suspension, will attend a diversity awareness course and will be fired if it happens again.

Which rather nicely coincides with a break he was likely to need after a long and arduous classics campaign. I love the statement: "Gianni understands what he did was wrong and how seriously Team Sky take this kind of incident". Sounds even more generic and officialese than his apology.

 

[RedheadDane]

Enough to give everybody a chance to move on.
Now he's gotten a ban, and when that is done he should be able to return with a clean slate*, just like everybody else returning from a ban, no matter why they got it.
What else could they have written?








*Not clean slate in the sense that we should pretend it never happened, but clean slate in the sense that it's a thing of the past, which won't define him for the rest of his career.

 

[Echoes]

"diversity awareness courses"?

It's crazy and scary. Why not a reformatory school, while we are at it? I guess this is really what we call PC. In all its oppressive nature.

Everybody has a right to second chance for Christ's sake. Not really usual but I agree with Red Head Dane, 100%.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

Anyway, per twitter, he's received a six week suspension, will attend a diversity awareness course and will be fired if it happens again.

Which rather nicely coincides with a break he was likely to need after a long and arduous classics campaign.

55 days until the next race he was supposed to ride. Which is 7 weeks.
And of course they didn't pull him when he did the deed, they waited until the race was over.

Of all the *** they've pulled over the years, this is the one that pisses me off. Sky are just so devoid of anything even resembling fair play.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Enough for what, though? It's not like it's something that we can just sweep under the rug and pretend it never happened.

Anyway, per twitter, he's received a six week suspension, will attend a diversity awareness course and will be fired if it happens again.

Which rather nicely coincides with a break he was likely to need after a long and arduous classics campaign. I love the statement: "Gianni understands what he did was wrong and how seriously Team Sky take this kind of incident". Sounds even more generic and officialese than his apology.

I would love to see what that entails. "Here is a black person, here is an asian one, here is a muslim etc." I don't get how you can be 'aware' or unaware of diversity, it isn't really something that you can be unaware of. It is either there or it isn't. It really doesn't take a genius to work out when it is there and when it isn't.

 

[RedheadDane]

"diversity awareness courses"?

It's crazy and scary. Why not a reformatory school, while we are at it? I guess this is really what we call PC. In all its oppressive nature.

Everybody has a right to second chance for Christ's sake. Not really usual but I agree with Red Head Dane, 100%.

A diversity awareness course (or multiple courses) might be just what he needs to make sure it won't happen again.

 

[AlexNYC]

"diversity awareness courses"?

It's crazy and scary. Why not a reformatory school, while we are at it? I guess this is really what we call PC. In all its oppressive nature.

Everybody has a right to second chance for Christ's sake. Not really usual but I agree with Red Head Dane, 100%.

This is just anecdotal evidence, so take it with a grain of salt, but whenever I've heard someone I know complain about the oppressiveness of political correctness, what they're really complaining about is that racist or anti-gay comments and jokes are no longer tolerated in polite society; which is funny in a certain way since these people seem to think that their backwards beliefs should always go unchallenged.

 

[Echoes]

I don't agree with you, then (RHD).

It really sounds like he would have to undergo some brainwashing, some hypnoses or psychiatric treatments, a bit like Ezra Pound after the war. Well in any case, it's very scary...

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Anyway, per twitter, he's received a six week suspension, will attend a diversity awareness course and will be fired if it happens again.

Which rather nicely coincides with a break he was likely to need after a long and arduous classics campaign.

55 days until the next race he was supposed to ride. Which is 7 weeks.
And of course they didn't pull him when he did the deed, they waited until the race was over.

Of all the ****** they've pulled over the years, this is the one that pisses me off. Sky are just so devoid of anything even resembling fair play.

Yep, it's laughable how obvious it was that it would play out like this. They really are a disgrace of a team. Everything is just spin and trying to save face when they keep getting caught out, but without ever being prepared to take a proper hit for their actions. Just a team utterly devoid of any ethics or commitment to anything other than themselves.

 

[kenk09]

I couldn't care less what punishment he gets. Education is the only important thing.

 

[kingjr]

Not as much as I'd hoped, better than nothing

 

[Gloin22]

Cause any other team would be different, firing a talent that can win monuments in the future

get *** real guys

 

[Echoes]

... and it should even have been worse??? ... Of course "nothing" should have been better. Leave people alone...