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The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

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Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
DFA123 said:
Ramon Koran said:
RedheadDane said:
Now we're back to the discussion we had a while back with regards to Albasini. People can change. Sometimes people say things which they do regret, not just because of bad publicity, but because they realise that it actually hurt someone.
How can we expect people to change if we don't actually believe they have changed?

As for what motivated it: Unfortunately it seems that to some degree society motivated it.
Exactly some people are brought up in a society were these things are not frowned upon, I personally believe moscon didn't realize the effects this would have and how wrong he was. He's apologized which shouldn't be understated, I believe he's learned his lesson but I guess we'll only know with time.
Why not? It's an utterly meaningless gesture. Of course he's going to throw out a few words of apology if his job and potentially his career is on the line. Only the most dogmatic neo-nazi types wouldn't offer a token apology in that situation.

If the UCI and Sky don't give a serious punishment then they are effectively trivialising racist abuse. It might be slightly harsh on Moscon and making an example of him - although I'm not sure I buy the 'naive farmer's boy' explanation. And, if he is, so what? If he gets sacked and has to get back into the sport the hard way, then he can at least get a taste of the difficulties and obstacles that still exist for many black riders trying to make it in the sport.

So if words can't make a right, why can they make such a huge wrong?
Are you serious here? Words (and especially actions) can make a right eventually, but certainly not immediately after your words have made such a wrong. Happens all the time - someone says something incredibly offensive, then apologizes in the wake of the backlash. Does that mean they didn't mean what was said initially?
 
Re: Re:

jaylew said:
I pretty much agree with just about everything Hrotha, Angliru, and Zinoviev have written.
RedheadDane said:
The thing is, when you're angry you don't really think.
Sure but stuff doesn't just fly out of your mouth unless it's the kind of thing you already think to a certain extent. I don't really know you, but could you see yourself in an argument with a black person and calling them a dirty ni**er? I agree people can change but that takes time and doesn't automatically happen just because someone apologizes.

Possibly. I've never been in a situation like that, so I wouldn't know. I also don't know what it might potentially take to make me that angry. But I can't say that it would never happen, I hope not, but I honestly can't be sure.
As for Moscon's ability to change; of course simply apologizing will not change him, but simply knowing that what he said was wrong is an important - in fact the most important - step on the road.
And maybe Reza is forgiving in the sense that he doesn't wanna make a big fuss about it.
 
Re: Re:

jaylew said:
Red Rick said:
DFA123 said:
Ramon Koran said:
RedheadDane said:
Now we're back to the discussion we had a while back with regards to Albasini. People can change. Sometimes people say things which they do regret, not just because of bad publicity, but because they realise that it actually hurt someone.
How can we expect people to change if we don't actually believe they have changed?

As for what motivated it: Unfortunately it seems that to some degree society motivated it.
Exactly some people are brought up in a society were these things are not frowned upon, I personally believe moscon didn't realize the effects this would have and how wrong he was. He's apologized which shouldn't be understated, I believe he's learned his lesson but I guess we'll only know with time.
Why not? It's an utterly meaningless gesture. Of course he's going to throw out a few words of apology if his job and potentially his career is on the line. Only the most dogmatic neo-nazi types wouldn't offer a token apology in that situation.

If the UCI and Sky don't give a serious punishment then they are effectively trivialising racist abuse. It might be slightly harsh on Moscon and making an example of him - although I'm not sure I buy the 'naive farmer's boy' explanation. And, if he is, so what? If he gets sacked and has to get back into the sport the hard way, then he can at least get a taste of the difficulties and obstacles that still exist for many black riders trying to make it in the sport.

So if words can't make a right, why can they make such a huge wrong?
Are you serious here? Words (and especially actions) can make a right eventually, but certainly not immediately after your words have made such a wrong. Happens all the time - someone says something incredibly offensive, then apologizes in the wake of the backlash. Does that mean they didn't mean what was said initially?
I'm not completely serious. But it does seem like a huge contradiction to me.
 
Re:

hrotha said:
He's a 21st century Italian in a very international working environment, not a 1880s casually anti-Semitic German. Overt racism of the kind he displayed is very much frowned upon in his own society. That excuse won't fly.

You don't have to go that far back. A 1980s french multiple Tour winner seems just fine. Just ask some Colombians, why they were racing with long arm jerseys. And he isn't the only one.
 
Apr 10, 2011
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Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
Gloin22 said:
Jancouver said:
It is my understanding that most (or many) Italians from the northern part consider everything south of Florence an "Africa". At least that what I have been told on more than one occasion by many Italians. So I'm not surprised one bit by his behaviour.

Tbf that is true :lol: :lol: . Terroneland is something you don't want ever to witness

Pizza, pasta, sun and doing **** all
I don't think this post is OK :confused:

Why, its backed up by statistics :confused:

This is exactly why this sterotype is so widely used and accepted that it doesnt even offend most sourtherns, because its backed up by practically all kinds of evidence :lol:
 
It is clear that he is racist. Being talented and part of the biggest team with the biggest riders does not give him the right to abuse somebody.
What is even more baffling is that Sky is willing to tolerate that and not immediately throw him out of the race. This clearly shows that Sky's mentality is win at all cost and sweep under the rug what is unethical but not illegal.
 
How angry one is is largely irrelevant.

To racially abuse someone the abuser must consciously or not subscribe to 1) an idea that there is a hierarchy amongst racial groups (However defined) and 2) that the one abused has qualities that puts them into a position in the hierarchy that the abuser sees as a justification for the particular form of abuse they partake. The source of such racist attitudes is obviously located in the fabric of our society, where structural and institutional racism prevails in addition to overt individual racism. But even so, the abuser expressing such attitudes is nevertheless not merely a puppet of societal forces but an active subject in the process of racism.

There is no way around this. What is more, I do not tolerate it. *** Moscon.
 
Re: Re:

Gloin22 said:
Jancouver said:
It is my understanding that most (or many) Italians from the northern part consider everything south of Florence an "Africa". At least that what I have been told on more than one occasion by many Italians. So I'm not surprised one bit by his behaviour.

Tbf that is true :lol: :lol: . Terroneland is something you don't want ever to witness

Pizza, pasta, sun and doing **** all :lol:

Good work lads, nothing like endorsing a few stereotypes to denigrate the filthy racist
 
Re: Re:

Max Rockatansky said:
hrotha said:
He's a 21st century Italian in a very international working environment, not a 1880s casually anti-Semitic German. Overt racism of the kind he displayed is very much frowned upon in his own society. That excuse won't fly.

You don't have to go that far back. A 1980s french multiple Tour winner seems just fine. Just ask some Colombians, why they were racing with long arm jerseys. And he isn't the only one.

Yep. And Bernard Hinault and Laurent Fignon have been in my personal s*it list ever since.

Those that are dismissing this incident as the understandable product of anger are being either naive or disingenuous. I don't think Moscone should lose his career over this. He is very young and maybe one day he'll understand why certain words are not merely hurtful and offensive; but the fact he was capable of uttering racist insults is in itself proof that he harbors racial prejudice and the UCI must discipline him in some way.

By the way, I'm yet to meet someone who uses racist epithets when angry and who isn't an obvious racist.
 
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Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
Gloin22 said:
Jancouver said:
It is my understanding that most (or many) Italians from the northern part consider everything south of Florence an "Africa". At least that what I have been told on more than one occasion by many Italians. So I'm not surprised one bit by his behaviour.

Tbf that is true :lol: :lol: . Terroneland is something you don't want ever to witness

Pizza, pasta, sun and doing **** all :lol:
I don't think this post is OK :confused:

ok it's not, but sadly reality ... at least it was some decades back (some sicilian friends informed me in the mid-80s that for someone from Milan anything south of Rome would be "Africa" ... actually the sicilians were quite laid-back about it, I guess the mood would have changed if anyone would have called a relative with the n-word) - I do not know whether things have changed to the better or the worse in the last 30 years .....
 
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Re:

Ramon Koran said:
Hugely disappointing of course, but people need to calm down, what he's done is bad, but it's words that's all. I personally I'm going to give him a second chance, he's young and was perhaps naïve. There are far worst people in sport who despite it are admired (Suarez for example). He's hugely talented and I think it would be wrong for him to spend the rest of his career with this weighing down on him.

huge talent should somehow be reflected in the personality ... hugely talented means he has to work less hard than the one with less talent in order to achieve the same - in that sense I would say, someone with great talent should be even less forgiven insulting competitors than the one with little talent .... just my 5cts ....
 
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Re:

Jancouver said:
It is my understanding that most (or many) Italians from the northern part consider everything south of Florence an "Africa". At least that what I have been told on more than one occasion by many Italians. So I'm not surprised one bit by his behaviour.
We don't even know if Moscon actually thinks of himself as Italian. :D
I get that things can get heated in a sprint and that riders end up insulting eachother, but that's not a reason to racially abuse someone, you call someone a pos or drop a few four letter words, but you don't end up racially abusing someone because you loose your calm in the heat of the moment.
I like Moscon, but you shouldn't do something like that.
 
Re:

meat puppet said:
How angry one is is largely irrelevant.

To racially abuse someone the abuser must consciously or not subscribe to 1) an idea that there is a hierarchy amongst racial groups (However defined) and 2) that the one abused has qualities that puts them into a position in the hierarchy that the abuser sees as a justification for the particular form of abuse they partake. The source of such racist attitudes is obviously located in the fabric of our society, where structural and institutional racism prevails in addition to overt individual racism. But even so, the abuser expressing such attitudes is nevertheless not merely a puppet of societal forces but an active subject in the process of racism.

There is no way around this. What is more, I do not tolerate it. **** Moscon.

Abusive racial comments are unacceptable. Cursing someone is just as bad.
 
Re: Re:

Jspear said:
meat puppet said:
How angry one is is largely irrelevant.

To racially abuse someone the abuser must consciously or not subscribe to 1) an idea that there is a hierarchy amongst racial groups (However defined) and 2) that the one abused has qualities that puts them into a position in the hierarchy that the abuser sees as a justification for the particular form of abuse they partake. The source of such racist attitudes is obviously located in the fabric of our society, where structural and institutional racism prevails in addition to overt individual racism. But even so, the abuser expressing such attitudes is nevertheless not merely a puppet of societal forces but an active subject in the process of racism.

There is no way around this. What is more, I do not tolerate it. **** Moscon.

Abusive racial comments are unacceptable. Cursing someone is just as bad.
No it isn't. Not in any shape or form.
 
1) Anger is not an excuse! Its like someone saying that they only said something because they were drunk. No, the booze just removed your filter and you said what you really think. In this case his anger clogged his filter and he reviled that he has racial bias.

EDIT: When I was in the USA Army (late '80s) physical altercations were a common part of daily life. I never once called anyone a racial name even during a physical altercation. So I don't buy the "he was angry and it slipped out" excuse.

2) In my job they would likely discuss firing. If the employee doesn't push back, firing it is. If the employee does push back, this would at the very least result in some unpaid vacation, followed by quite a bit of training, and a long probation (the "code of conduct" has a lot of gray areas that help "the man" more than employees in this type of situation).

EDIT: The UCI is trying to 'globalize' cycling so hopefully they have training for those who are intolerant of the very people that the UCI is trying to bring into the sport.
 
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Re:

jmdirt said:
1) Anger is not an excuse! Its like someone saying that they only said something because they were drunk. No, the booze just removed your filter and you said what you really think. In this case his anger clogged his filter and he reviled that he has racial bias.

2) In my job they would likely discuss firing. If the employee doesn't push back, firing it is. If the employee does push back, this would at the very least result in some unpaid vacation, followed by quite a bit of training, and a long probation (the "code of conduct" has a lot of gray areas that help "the man" more than employees in this type of situation).

Your job sounds awful. Not as awful as Moscon, but still pretty awful.
 
1) No, it does not excuse it in the sense that it makes it okay. It does, however, in my opinion "excuse" it in the sense that it at least partly explains why he - or anybody - might say something like that - whatever it was he said - without actually being actively racist: Anger + the tiny bits of racism in society seeping through = bad things.
Of course he needs to learn how to manage his anger, especially since a bike race his hardly reason to be that angry.

What more is I don't believe Moscon is a bad person. Yes, what he did was terrible, and hopefully it won't happen again. However, there is a far worse alternative:
What if he - or any rider - had constantly being complaining about how dark-skinned people shouldn't be in the sport, simply because of their skin colour? That would be a reason to dislike a rider!
 
Re: Re:

loge1884 said:
LaFlorecita said:
Gloin22 said:
Jancouver said:
It is my understanding that most (or many) Italians from the northern part consider everything south of Florence an "Africa". At least that what I have been told on more than one occasion by many Italians. So I'm not surprised one bit by his behaviour.

Tbf that is true :lol: :lol: . Terroneland is something you don't want ever to witness

Pizza, pasta, sun and doing **** all :lol:
I don't think this post is OK :confused:

ok it's not, but sadly reality ... at least it was some decades back (some sicilian friends informed me in the mid-80s that for someone from Milan anything south of Rome would be "Africa" ... actually the sicilians were quite laid-back about it, I guess the mood would have changed if anyone would have called a relative with the n-word) - I do not know whether things have changed to the better or the worse in the last 30 years .....
It's twenty years that i live in Italy and it's exactly the same, in northern Italy the "razzismo territoriale" it's very common against who live in southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia but also Rome is very hated.
There is a famous political party that for almost two decades grabs votes in northern Italy using the hate against the southern part, now they changed strategy but only because there is a new "enemy" for them, the immigrants, and hating the immigrants they can grab votes everywhere.
 
Re: Re:

Der Effe said:
jmdirt said:
1) Anger is not an excuse! Its like someone saying that they only said something because they were drunk. No, the booze just removed your filter and you said what you really think. In this case his anger clogged his filter and he reviled that he has racial bias.

2) In my job they would likely discuss firing. If the employee doesn't push back, firing it is. If the employee does push back, this would at the very least result in some unpaid vacation, followed by quite a bit of training, and a long probation (the "code of conduct" has a lot of gray areas that help "the man" more than employees in this type of situation).

Your job sounds awful. Not as awful as Moscon, but still pretty awful.

I thought most jobs are like this.
 
Re: Re:

Brullnux said:
Jspear said:
meat puppet said:
How angry one is is largely irrelevant.

To racially abuse someone the abuser must consciously or not subscribe to 1) an idea that there is a hierarchy amongst racial groups (However defined) and 2) that the one abused has qualities that puts them into a position in the hierarchy that the abuser sees as a justification for the particular form of abuse they partake. The source of such racist attitudes is obviously located in the fabric of our society, where structural and institutional racism prevails in addition to overt individual racism. But even so, the abuser expressing such attitudes is nevertheless not merely a puppet of societal forces but an active subject in the process of racism.

There is no way around this. What is more, I do not tolerate it. **** Moscon.

Abusive racial comments are unacceptable. Cursing someone is just as bad.
No it isn't. Not in any shape or form.

Of course some are going to defend cursing someone cause more do it. :eek: Doesn't make it any better. Racial comments used to be more prevalent as well.
 
I am not in the "it's forgivable if you're angry and you didn't really mean it in a racist way" camp. There are lots of perfectly good ways to express your anger with somebody that doesn't involve abuse related to their ethnicity. I don't care how much you want to offend them, if you didn't mean to be racist, you wouldn't use the racist vocab, period.
 
Re: Re:

Der Effe said:
jmdirt said:
1) Anger is not an excuse! Its like someone saying that they only said something because they were drunk. No, the booze just removed your filter and you said what you really think. In this case his anger clogged his filter and he reviled that he has racial bias.

2) In my job they would likely discuss firing. If the employee doesn't push back, firing it is. If the employee does push back, this would at the very least result in some unpaid vacation, followed by quite a bit of training, and a long probation (the "code of conduct" has a lot of gray areas that help "the man" more than employees in this type of situation).

Your job sounds awful. Not as awful as Moscon, but still pretty awful.
My job is great! Having high expectations for peoples' behavior makes my job even better.