The Good that Lance has done.

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Jun 16, 2009
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onefastgear said:
Lance seems to have legitimized the sport for a lot of middle aged men outside of Europe (I'm speaking here about my opinion from east coast Australia). Lance's attitude, accessibility (speaking English) and celebrity, made cycling more macho.
We might have lagged a bit behind the trend here, but I see lots of guys in their 40s-50s out riding now, decked out in their MJ kit atop their $5k bikes. More cyclists on the road is a good thing.
To be honest I find these chaps rather embarassing.

It's all very well being a "cyclist" when you're in your fifties if you've been a racer since your teens and are still damn good at it, and really know what you're talking about.

Being an overweight know-nothing with expensive gear riding around at 25km/h on 52x17 in a Discovery jersey with your knees flailing outwards and your thighs connecting with your belly on every pedal stroke is very uncool.

By all means go for a bike ride, and enjoy the health benefits. but one has to wonder about trying to look like a "pro", at least as far as the gear is concerned.

Personally I worry that quite a few of these guys are actually playing some sort of game in their heads that they are some sort of "racer" (obv in the "racing against themselves" category) and that Lance is riding with them in spirit or something....

They already invented a great game for middle aged wealthy men anyway, it's called golf, and its really fu&*ing boring. Similar to cycling, having really expensive gear doesn't make you any better either.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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thehog said:
Greg LeMond, 7-Elven, Phil Anderson started it.
....and because a fundamental change in technology and media created very fertile ground for these seeds to germinate in.

It gave these likeable people 7-league boots that can create the false illusion that it was "them" who did it. They helped each other. But the media revolution (technology and business wise) is often getting far less credit than it deserves.

It is a bit like saying that Neil Armstrong popularised moon-landings and astronauts. Ignoring the compelling power of a hyper-dramatic setting, NASA, rocket engineers, and being part of one of the first global TV experiences. If it wasn't him someone else would (eventually) have filled the same boots.

But, granted, what added appeal he (they) brought to the scene certainly helped.
 
Francois the Postman said:
.It is a bit like saying that Neil Armstrong popularised moon-landings and astronauts. Ignoring the compelling power of a hyper-dramatic setting, NASA, rocket engineers, and being part of one of the first global TV experiences. If it wasn't him someone else would (eventually) have filled the same boots.

But, granted, what added appeal he (they) brought to the scene certainly helped.
Excellent example. In Europe no one has ever heard of Neil Armstrong. In Russia they wouldn't even know about the Moon landing.

The only name they know is Yuri Gagarin - the first man in space. A far bigger achievement in air-space history - but the Americans never wanted it to be so they created the "moon landing" story - live on TV.
 
May 26, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
"The" fans are not one single thing. And "the greatest fraud" is another absolute that just gets tossed in for effect, without accepting that people's criteria may vary. Sure, there are zealots amongst the LA fans. The vast majority are not. And fanatically committed posters can be found in all camps. In evidence I present you with "the Clinic", a dwelling place for some staggeringly committed posters who are here on a pretty much daily basis, ready to pounce on posts that have anything flattering to say about LA. That in itself, again, is not a bad thing either.

Some of you really are not doing your own argued posts any favours by pretending that at the end of it, you have proven that it is scientifically impossible to still like, admire, or respect, LA as a sportsman, or a cyclist. Or as a person even.

People have all kinds of criteria that (can) lead to perfectly valid positions. For them.

Anyone who thinks that their own position is the only valid pov to have, their reading of a set of data the only plausible black or white reading, and thus can dictate how LA should be seen by others, also belongs to a group that has pretty rigid blinkers on. Of a different kind, but just as "hard of hearing".

There have been countless posts by people here who argue why for them, LA is still someone they like, admire or respect. But it seems that some people have a version of the internet where these posts don't appear at their end, as despite the evidence in their face, they somehow keep claiming that these people simply can't possibly exist and be human. Or unpaid. Or something equally dismissive.

So when people write is unbelievable that people can be so dim they come to conclusions, despite the evidence in their face, that... well, it seems we all have the capacity to ignore, or don't care, or value differently, data that stares in the face, even on a daily basis.
if people want to admire a guy who from the very beginning was doping and persisted in pursuing a road that has escalated into what we see as this enormous sociopathic win at all costs egotist using a terrible disease for self enrichment fine but let them preach the myth else where or at least debate in an intelligent manner that references the evidence rather than dismiss or ignore it.

but if they pontificate in the manner as seen on here then my response will be similarly as dismissive
 
Apr 16, 2009
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mad black said:
Well than you'd also have to acknowledge that 2008 was the first time the TDU was run as a ProTour event! That would naturally draw bigger crowds don't you think?
Indeed, one could argue that the TDU receiving Pro Tour status is the real reason for the sharp growth in spectator numbers rather than the "LA effect". Personally, I attended the TDU in 2008 because it was granted Pro Tour status, didn't attend in 2009 when LA made his first paid appearance and attended again in 2010 due to Cadel Evans competing. LA was certainly not a drawcard for me. The unfortunate influence LA has had on may cyclists (unfortunately way too many in Ausyralia) is the false belief that his success was due to high cadence, weighing his food, and reconnoitering the stages.
 
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Anonymous

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mad black said:
Ok, you're a nitpicker. But i can do the same. At what point do you make the connection between CA members and popularity of cycling? If you're not racing there's no point in joining.

And for the record. TDU SPECTATOR numbers (Please note the significant increase from 2008 to 2009.):

2011 - 772,000 http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/record-crowds-for-santos-tour-down-under
2010 - 770,500 http://www.tourdownunder.com.au/tour/faq#17
2009 - 760,500 http://www.tourism.sa.gov.au/news/article.asp?NewsID=450
2008 - 548,000 (no Armstrong) http://www.bikeexchange.com.au/news/show/64-2009-tour-down-under-dates-confirmed
2007 - 357,000
Lies, damned lies and statistic.

For these figures to be used in an argument you also need to look at what other factors may have effected attendances. What was the advertising budget for each of those years? What other riders or teams being present may have increased attendances (for instance the 2010 debut of team sky was very popular down under due to their australian riders, and after winning the classic they brought in more fans. Their team area was crammed everyday). Did its rise to pro-tour level effect the overall field taking part, and therefore its attendances. Are these increases only in the TDU or are other races seeing increased attendance. i would suggest you provide figures for at least 3 other races, say, the Tour of Britain, Ruta del Sol, and Tour of Poland for instance. It may be that the tdu's increases merely reflect a common pattern around the world.
has the global recession effected cycling attendances. With people now shorter of money attending free events becomes more popular.
There are a whole load of factors that need to be evaluated before these figures can be claimed as definative proof of Lance-Mania.

I would actually say since becomming a pro-tour event its audience has grown minimaly, and actually fairly dissapointingly. Just 12,000 extra people since 2009. Id be willing to bet that compared with other races its actually performing poorly.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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To reply to all of the people that thought my post was silly...
You are confusing greatness with celebrity, of course Eddie is the greatest ever. But he is not a bigger celebrity then Lance, people all over the world know LA, because of his celebrity.

Yes I mentioned the ESPY's, in American sports celebrity scene they are a big thing. SI has done many covers to Lance, as well as a few on LeMond, but the press coverage on Lance dwarfs that of LeMond. Only because of when LeMond won his tours. Reverse the two time frames, Lance in the 80's and Greg in the current scene and it would be the same. Lance the forgotten winner by the mainstream public, and Greg Lemond would be doing commercials for Nike, and hanging out with the cool kids on ESPN/MTV

I started watching cycling in the 80's, Scott..nice try.

This is not a pro Lance fact or a negative Lance fact, it is just a fact. When I can ride my bike through some little town in PA, or NC, or WV and people yell at me GO LANCE!!...well they are not yelling GO EDDIE, or GO Pantini, or hell even BIG MIG!!...it Lance they know, since he is a huge celebrity.
 
Aug 30, 2010
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haters gonna hate...

if you think about it, what Lance did or didn't do has absolutely zero relevance to the lives of the majority of the people that post in here. The bloodlust in these threads is disturbing at times.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Darryl Webster said:
Care to explain this fella then?:rolleyes:

Fausto Coppi`s Funeral: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPbAWTsI4Gg&feature=related
That reminds me of a discussion I had with some american friends while living in US, when I was joking about all those "Best donut in the world!" and "World Famous Bagel!" that I had never heard of in Europe :rolleyes:, and I was told that "world famous!" actually only meant "new world famous"...

An Old Europe celebrity probably doesn't qualify as "world famous!". And I guess you can also expand this idea in time. "Best in History!" is actually only about the last 10 years...
 
Oct 8, 2010
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Darryl Webster said:
As you may have ignored my previous apology for ignoring Fausto please care to read a couple of pages back.

But the numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPbAWTsI4Gg&feature=related -24,539 views...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHJErrp4eOw - 1,815,940 views...

I rest my case!
 
Aug 30, 2010
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mad black said:
As you may have ignored my previous apology for ignoring Fausto please care to read a couple of pages back.

But the numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPbAWTsI4Gg&feature=related -24,539 views...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHJErrp4eOw - 1,815,940 views...

I rest my case!

Your case can rest ... in the rubbish tip... because your logic is completely flawed. Youtube didn't exist when Coppi was around and if it did he would have also had millions of hits.
 
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Anonymous

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mad black said:
As you may have ignored my previous apology for ignoring Fausto please care to read a couple of pages back.

But the numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPbAWTsI4Gg&feature=related -24,539 views...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHJErrp4eOw - 1,815,940 views...

I rest my case!
do you have figures for what percentage of people viewing that video searched on lance and what percentage searched on alpe d'huez? (also bear in mind a lot of the coppi videos are non english. youtube is primerily english)

So on that basis:

Jade Goody is more famous than Fausto Coppi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUT9jO7J-BI
 
Mar 17, 2009
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mad black said:
What has LA personally done to any of you to deserve that kind of hate?

As I see it LA finds himself in the same predicament as Tiger, all everyone wants is to see the perfect image crumble and eventually being shattered. So that everyone has an excuse to say "See, I'm (morally) bettter than that guy with his millions!". - Get a life and get over it! Or even better have the tenacity to earn your own millions.
Tiger Woods, AFAIK, has not been accused of cheating on anyone other than his wife. While that is appalling behaviour it is not illegal. Lance Armstrong is accused of cheating on a sporting level and by virtue of that possibly defrauding USPS & other sponsors out of millions in sponsorship. That is not only appalling behaviour but, if proved, criminal. Huge, huge difference.

I don't give a stuff what anyone does in their personal life, I do not want anyone who profits from criminal activity to get away with it. Armstrong was already a very well paid sportsman in 1994, and at the time I was impressed with his exploits on the bike. I was sad for him when he was diagnosed with testicular cancer in 1996 and amazed that he even got back on a racing bike, much less won anything. But when the questions about his choice of doctor/trainer came to light I was of the same opinion as Lemond. In the intervening 10 years or so I have gone from wanting to believe to questioning everything that comes out of any professional's mouth. That's before we look at the UCI shenanigans. Every time Pat McQuaid or Armstrong open their mouths I feel my intelligence is being insulted.

Armstrong, Weisel, Bruyneel & mcQuaid need to have their activities of the last decade opened up to scrutiny so that this incredible sport can move back on up to greatness again. All of them appear to have been pariahs on this sport and I wonder how much more it can sustain before it is beyond help.

It is irrelevant what good someone has done in the world when it is built on foundations of deceit.
 
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Anonymous

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mikeNphilly said:
To reply to all of the people that thought my post was silly...
You are confusing greatness with celebrity, of course Eddie is the greatest ever. But he is not a bigger celebrity then Lance, people all over the world know LA, because of his celebrity.

Yes I mentioned the ESPY's, in American sports celebrity scene they are a big thing. SI has done many covers to Lance, as well as a few on LeMond, but the press coverage on Lance dwarfs that of LeMond. Only because of when LeMond won his tours. Reverse the two time frames, Lance in the 80's and Greg in the current scene and it would be the same. Lance the forgotten winner by the mainstream public, and Greg Lemond would be doing commercials for Nike, and hanging out with the cool kids on ESPN/MTV

I started watching cycling in the 80's, Scott..nice try.

This is not a pro Lance fact or a negative Lance fact, it is just a fact. When I can ride my bike through some little town in PA, or NC, or WV and people yell at me GO LANCE!!...well they are not yelling GO EDDIE, or GO Pantini, or hell even BIG MIG!!...it Lance they know, since he is a huge celebrity.
Go ride your bike in Belgium and then tell me Boonen is not a celebrity.
 
Sep 16, 2010
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The SI article has certainly got the fanboys worried. People who don't know the history of cycling commenting. People referring to ESPN. It really gives you a good idea of who the Armstrong fans are.
 
Jan 14, 2011
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warning. possible offensive content

Sanitiser said:
- Promoted cycling outside Europe
- Promoted cycling to the most important market of all; well off baby boomer men
- Increased cancer awareness (let's not argue about this)

Was it worth it?
I knew a well educated medical professional who once told me eh thought Hitler wasn't such a bad guy. In fact he did a lot of good things; got the country organized; moving in a positive direction, trains running on time, etc etc. Sure he went a little overboard, but.....
 
rickshaw said:
I knew a well educated medical professional who once told me eh thought Hitler wasn't such a bad guy. In fact he did a lot of good things; got the country organized; moving in a positive direction, trains running on time, etc etc. Sure he went a little overboard, but.....
Godwin's Law! :p
 

Skandar Akbar

BANNED
Nov 20, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
- Promoted cycling outside Europe
- Promoted cycling to the most important market of all; well off baby boomer men
- Increased cancer awareness (let's not argue about this)

Was it worth it?
What kind of thread and question is this? Was "it" worth it?

"It" being the hope given to millions, who in turn through prayer and willpower pushed Lance up the cols of France like a nitrous oxide equipped millenium falcon shooting off into hyperspace to confont the evil empire of doping and WADA head on. Yes "it" was woth it.

Keeping with the Star Wars theme doesn't the names Luke Skywalker and Lance Armstrong have a similar connotation? Super forces of good over evil? Even their lives are similar. Instead of Luke finding out Darth Vader was his dad it would not surprise me if Novitsky or **** Pound or Rudy Pevenege was Lance's.

That pesky little rodent pet of Jabba the Hut remind me of Landis. I remember when that thing was picking the eyes out of C3PO, R2D2 zapped his a$$. I think Wiggins new nickname should be R2D2.
 
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Anonymous

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Skandar Akbar said:
Keeping with the Star Wars theme doesn't the names Luke Skywalker and Lance Armstrong have a similar connotation? Super forces of good over evil? Even their lives are similar. Instead of Luke finding out Darth Vader was his dad it would not surprise me if Novitsky or **** Pound or Rudy Pevenege was Lance's.

That pesky little rodent pet of Jabba the Hut remind me of Landis. I remember when that thing was picking the eyes out of C3PO, R2D2 zapped his a$$. I think Wiggins new nickname should be R2D2.
that sounds like a cue for this...
 
Mar 17, 2009
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mikeNphilly said:
To reply to all of the people that thought my post was silly...
You are confusing greatness with celebrity, of course Eddie is the greatest ever. But he is not a bigger celebrity then Lance, people all over the world know LA, because of his celebrity.

Yes I mentioned the ESPY's, in American sports celebrity scene they are a big thing. SI has done many covers to Lance, as well as a few on LeMond, but the press coverage on Lance dwarfs that of LeMond. Only because of when LeMond won his tours. Reverse the two time frames, Lance in the 80's and Greg in the current scene and it would be the same. Lance the forgotten winner by the mainstream public, and Greg Lemond would be doing commercials for Nike, and hanging out with the cool kids on ESPN/MTV

I started watching cycling in the 80's, Scott..nice try.

This is not a pro Lance fact or a negative Lance fact, it is just a fact. When I can ride my bike through some little town in PA, or NC, or WV and people yell at me GO LANCE!!...well they are not yelling GO EDDIE, or GO Pantini, or hell even BIG MIG!!...it Lance they know, since he is a huge celebrity.
I went riding last October in Como. I got heckled by an old lady in the middle of nowhere, but it wasn't "Vai, Lance!" she shouted. No, it was "Viva, Coppi!". He's been dead 60 years!!
 
Jul 6, 2010
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MD said:
The SI article has certainly got the fanboys worried. People who don't know the history of cycling commenting. People referring to ESPN. It really gives you a good idea of who the Armstrong fans are.
Yep... Armstrong is to cycling who André Rieu is to classical music, or who Nora Roberts is to literature.
 

Skandar Akbar

BANNED
Nov 20, 2010
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callac said:
Yep... Armstrong is to cycling who André Rieu is to classical music, or who Nora Roberts is to literature.
Never heard of these people. Do they race?

BTW you left an "a" out of the name of your hometown.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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rickshaw said:
I knew a well educated medical professional who once told me eh thought Hitler wasn't such a bad guy. In fact he did a lot of good things; got the country organized; moving in a positive direction, trains running on time, etc etc. Sure he went a little overboard, but.....
:D ...its sugested the dope ( opietes) he was on from his quack doctor treeting him for wounds he recieved in the trenches of WW1 sent him barking.
See any simialarities to the Golden Ones mind?:rolleyes::D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell
 
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