The Good that Lance has done.

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Barrus

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flicker said:
Pantani was a great climber, a winner and Italian. Other than that why is he so endeared by the tifosi? I personally see no charm in the man, divorced, depressed and with more than a little attraction to cocaine.
Please, explain why he is loved?
For a large part his flaws. Pretty much the same reason Ullrich is loved by many.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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And Lance will be seen in a similar way. A hero that survived cancer, created a charity but succumbed to doping like so many before him.
 

Barrus

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Apr 28, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
And Lance will be seen in a similar way. A hero that survived cancer, created a charity but succumbed to doping like so many before him.
Not really, at least not in Europe. By many he is already disliked, for a large part due to his persona and character. Almost none of the people I know who are real fans of the sport, a category to which the tifosi would belong, likes Armstrong. The only persons who do like him are the people who do not really follow cycling, a group that will soon forget him and no longer watch or be a fan of cycling
 
flicker said:
Pantani was a great climber, a winner and Italian. Other than that why is he so endeared by the tifosi? I personally see no charm in the man, divorced, depressed and with more than a little attraction to cocaine.
Please, explain why he is loved?
Pantani? Divorced? He never married.

You sure you're not thinking of Armstrong? He's divorced has an attraction to cocaine and is probably depressed.
 
May 26, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
And Lance will be seen in a similar way. A hero that survived cancer, created a charity but succumbed to doping like so many before him.
he created a charity in name only, but as Barrus says the people who are his fans will soon forget him and follow the next miracle sports hero/celebrity that comes along.

it's big business to win now with a myth built around the suffering, anguish and pain that a sports star had to endure to win. in fact winning without it is boring for the average tv viewer
 

Barrus

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Apr 28, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
he created a charity in name only, but as Barrus says the people who are his fans will soon forget him and follow the next miracle sports hero/celebrity that comes along.

it's big business to win now with a myth built around the suffering, anguish and pain that a sports star had to endure to win. in fact winning without it is boring for the average tv viewer
This is one of the reasons why I never understood there wasn't more of a fuzz made about the history of Contador, which to be quite frank could be seen as a lot more tragic than that of Lance. But that is more for a different thread
 
Jan 20, 2011
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I'm not American but I'd say being an champion is more accepted in professional athletes there like Jordan, Kobe etc. The guy has some form of charisma that is offset by reversions to being an champion. Most of the public see Armstrong = Livestrong.

People here are quick to point out the significance of the SI article. But they left out the 'dirt' on Livestrong. Maybe the evidence is not all that compelling to justify a lawsuit. Perhaps RaceRadio can elaborate?
 
Aug 3, 2009
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Barrus said:
Not really, at least not in Europe. By many he is already disliked, for a large part due to his persona and character. Almost none of the people I know who are real fans of the sport, a category to which the tifosi would belong, likes Armstrong. The only persons who do like him are the people who do not really follow cycling, a group that will soon forget him and no longer watch or be a fan of cycling
But that's only because they don't know how many Sports Illustrated covers he's been on or how many ESPY awards he's won.

Once they learn how popular he actually is, then they'll realize they've loved him along but just didn't know it.
 
May 26, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
I'm not American but I'd say being an champion is more accepted in professional athletes there like Jordan, Kobe etc. They guy has some form of charisma that is offset by reversions to being an champion. Most of the public see Armstrong = Livestrong.

People here are quick to point out the significance of the SI article. But they left out the 'dirt' on Livestrong. Maybe the evidence is not all that compelling to justify a lawsuit. Perhaps RaceRadio can elaborate?
the SI article was judged to be full enough as published with a lot of facts for their average reader to deal with, so Live$trong gets to breath for a bit longer, but its coming dont worry

michael jordan , man i haven't heard his name in along time. last article i read his gambling was way out of hand on the golf course, losing half million $$$ a hole...
 
May 26, 2010
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MacRoadie said:
But that's only because they don't know how many Sports Illustrated covers he's been on or how many ESPY awards he's won.

Once they learn how popular he actually is, then they'll realize they've loved him along but just didn't know it.
out of interst how many SI covers has he had, 1? 2?
 
Apr 21, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Well, let's see. Acquiring, possession, distribution of controlled medical substances. I use 'may be' because I'm not entirely convinced his misbehavior will actually get prosecuted. If SI ran the story, they had to be ready for long, expensive litigation should the anecdotes retold expose some liability. SI and other media outlets before SI ran parts of the story have good information.

Question 1: What specific sources will qualify as credible proof? Be specific.
Umm, I have to jump in here, albeit quite late, because EPO/CERA are not controlled substances. Like pharmaceutical controlled substances they are available with a prescription, but the difference is that their sale is not regulated by the DEA. If one has a prescription then their is legal. State laws, however, usually restrict a prescription drug's use to legitimate medical uses.

From this perspective, I am not sure what laws would have been broken by a cyclist using EPO, as long as one had a prescription. Carrying them across an international border may very well violate laws - I don't know!
 
Aug 3, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
out of interst how many SI covers has he had, 1? 2?
No, it's probably closer to a dozen...

Edit: It's 11.


Lance Armstrong SI Covers

Of course, Mark McGwire also had 11, Pete Rose has been the subject of 12, and Tiger has been featured on 21.

LeMond made it on to three, so maybe there is some reverse-correlation there?
 
May 25, 2009
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Sanitiser said:
And Lance will be seen in a similar way. A hero that survived cancer, created a charity but succumbed to doping like so many before him.
He also succumbed to many things other of his generation didn't succumb to:

Don't forget how many people he ruined or tried to ruin in the press. I don't recall Indurain, Ullrich, Riis, etc.. or any of those guys ever trying to ruin anyone for even suggesting that he wasn't clean, even when they were forced to say these things under penalty of perjury (Frankie, Simeoni).
 
May 25, 2009
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Sanitiser said:
Are you trying to show how ungracious MJ was and thus making Lance look less-bad for have in your words "succumbed to cheating like so many before him?

MJ didn't cheat - he won on skill
He was mostly gracious throughout his career

LA cheated, (according to SI's research) throughout his career
also attacked everyone throughout his career, journalists, ex teammates, called on editors to ask that journo's be terminated from their jobs
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Sanitiser said:
You're getting ahead of yourself. To this internet forum Armstrong represents corruption and doping. To most of the outside world he represents hope, raises money against cancer and it looks like he may of doped like every other cyclist out there but there is no smoking gun yet.
Sanitiser said:
Yes until then people will see Lance more 'good' then 'bad'. Hell I'd say in 10, 15 years times this age Lance will be rationalized in the same way Pantani is.
Strange how you say LA "may" have doped but you don't extend that to Pantani who never failed a drug test?
 
Jan 20, 2011
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I'm saying that they are similar and people love him for it. If you knew anything about basketball there have been accusations that referees went soft on MJ regarding fouls etc, that the Chicago media didn't report his well known infidelities during his career because he was a hometown hero and it wouldn't surprise me if he used PEDs.
 
Sanitiser said:
And Lance will be seen in a similar way. A hero that survived cancer, created a charity but succumbed to doping like so many before him.
No, I don't think so.
-If/when it comes out that team-wide doping was mandatory.
-When people finally realize his entire career was doped, which likely brought on the cancer.
-The felonies will discourage most from having a positive association with the guy.

The guy likes his recreational drugs, but what he did just dwarfs 'character flaws.' A few cult members and some paid shills will try to keep it alive for a while.

*IF* the liv3str0ng.com/.org mess is dissected, the most ardent deniers (Velonews, Versus) will be the only ones left trying to keep the myth alive.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Barrus said:
Not really, at least not in Europe. By many he is already disliked, for a large part due to his persona and character. Almost none of the people I know who are real fans of the sport, a category to which the tifosi would belong, likes Armstrong. The only persons who do like him are the people who do not really follow cycling, a group that will soon forget him and no longer watch or be a fan of cycling
Someones world can be constructed very simple.
Good that you are not a representive for Europe, of course neither am I.

And cycling is not about love - it's about performance, speed and style.

Real cyclingfans love that and don't care if someone is an ars*****.
Look, Cav is an ars*****, but he is great and the best sprinter in the world.
 
kukiniloa said:
Umm, I have to jump in here, albeit quite late, because EPO/CERA are not controlled substances.
The drug I am referencing is from the SI article, Hemassist. It will likely come to pass there were other drugs.

kukiniloa said:
If one has a prescription then their is legal.
Lance had a decade's worth of prescriptions for PED's? You see how quickly what would work for a normal person with a temporary condition is absurd when applying it to Pharmstrong's situation? Only one back dated TUE on record too.

kukiniloa said:
State laws, however, usually restrict a prescription drug's use to legitimate medical uses.
I wonder which States could tee up for a slam-dunk prosecution. Colorado? Texas? California?

Finally, there's the big issue of Pharmstrong requiring his riders to use dope. So, there are distribution allegations yet to see the light of the mainstream media.
 
A

Anonymous

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Sanitiser said:
And Lance will be seen in a similar way. A hero that survived cancer, created a charity but succumbed to doping like so many before him.
No, because where pantanis flaws were there for all to see, as they were with ulrich, or vandenbroucke etc, its very different with lance.

Pantani, Frank etc didnt tell the world they were so important, they didnt defraud millions of people. Pantani, Vandebroucke etc were tortured souls, misguided but romanticised. To even compare lance to Pantani is frankly an insult to Pantani's memory.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Sanitiser said:
I'm saying that they are similar and people love him for it. If you knew anything about basketball there have been accusations that referees went soft on MJ regarding fouls etc, that the Chicago media didn't report his well known infidelities during his career because he was a hometown hero and it wouldn't surprise me if he used PEDs.
My wife was a private chef/nutritionist for several NBA, NFL starters. The NFL guy was a franchise player, devout Christian and still got popped for 'roids. He served his hand slap suspension and claimed to be all clean. He didn't lose a pound of weight and went to an East Coast team on another fat contract. While she never saw any of it she wasn't totally surprised.

The NBA guy was fat and slow. Most of them can run all day and do it again and again and again. If they're injured and have to sit there is a young turk ready to steal his spot so the money and motivation to use PEDs models anything cycling could imagine. I've watched the NBA ever since it was televised and player performance progress also shames cycling.
 
Oct 8, 2010
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runninboy said:
When i took my first trip to Italy, whenever i mentioned cycling. especially to non cyclists the first words out of their mouth "aaaaah Coppi" Decades after his demise he is cycling to most of the general public in Italy. Quite a legacy
Yes, that's exactly right! In 100 years time Americans will still claim that Lance is cycling!!!
 
Oct 8, 2010
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bianchigirl said:
Mad Black - Merckx is indisputably the greatest ever cyclist, including his TdF record, end of.
That, Italian Girl is your opinion and is definitely disputable! I would argue that big Mig was greater than Eddie, simply because he manged to steer clear of ANY doping controversies!
 
May 26, 2010
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mad black said:
That, Italian Girl is your opinion and is definitely disputable! I would argue that big Mig was greater than Eddie, simply because he manged to steer clear of ANY doping controversies!
FAIL

Tested positive for salbutamol in 1994, though it was not banned by the UCI at the time.
 
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