The Good that Lance has done.

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jimmypop

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Jul 16, 2010
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onefastgear said:
As a doctor, I have seen Lance's influence on patients confronted with a cancer diagnosis. Lying in the anaesthetic bay scared about what's going to confront them on the other side of the operation. They'll have read a Lance quote or even a book, and they hope. No way I'm taking that from them.
My grandfather overcame testicular cancer late in life. He was a casual fan of cycling before I ever got into the sport (thanks to GL's publicity during his TdF runs). He read one of the ghostwritten Armstrong books, and certainly looked to Armstrong for inspiration.

When my grandfather asked me point blank about Armstrong and doping (in mid-2007), I replied that all signs were pointing toward confirmation. With that, my grandfather tossed the book and never mentioned him again. He completed his chemo treatments with the realization that hope comes from within.

Is false hope equivalent with real hope? That's an individual decision. I'd like to think my grandfather made the correct and healthy decision to discontinue his use of a purveyor of false hope as a beacon for his own recovery.

I equate your rationalization with letting an individual practice homeopathy because it "does no harm". The tangible harm is that you're letting someone believe in fairy tales, and as a society we can do better than that.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Any good that Wonderboy may have done for the sport will be erased in the next few years as it becomes clear to even the most ardent groupie that he is a junkie. Unfortunately the sport will also be painted by his foolishness
 

flicker

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Race Radio said:
Any good that Wonderboy may have done for the sport will be erased in the next few years as it becomes clear to even the most ardent groupie that he is a junkie. Unfortunately the sport will also be painted by his foolishness
I hear you RR but this is pro cycling and riders have their habits...
 
Jun 12, 2010
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jimmypop said:
I equate your rationalization with letting an individual practice homeopathy because it "does no harm". The tangible harm is that you're letting someone believe in fairy tales, and as a society we can do better than that.
It`s a dificult one, the freedom to think and believe whatever one wants is a basic right no mater how abhorrent. The altarnative is thought control..ultimatly impossible to impose and far more abhorrent .
What a society`s role is, is to expose the charlatans that we might make beter judgments.
 

runninboy

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Jun 16, 2009
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mad black said:
My sincere apologies admittedly I'm a little unfamilar with Fausto Coppi but I just educated myself.

An interesting fact I discovered during my education is that Fausto is widely credited with introducing PED's to cycling.:eek:

Seeing that you credit LA with having had a "superior programme" than any other cyclist they may afterall be equals:rolleyes:
Well once again you are wrong so to continue your education pre internet history look up Henri Pelissier here is a famous quote from him & his brother Francis in 1924

"You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15.[7] We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...'

From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..."

"Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece.

"In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.'

this quote pre dates Coppi's earliest victories by about 12 years so i guess you have made yet another erroneous assumption.

When i took my first trip to Italy, whenever i mentioned cycling. especially to non cyclists the first words out of their mouth "aaaaah Coppi" Decades after his demise he is cycling to most of the general public in Italy. Quite a legacy.

Lance benefits from the instantaneous sharing of information. The fact that people know of him today proves nothing. Is Beckham great because he has receives so much publicity? Does visibility represent anything other than the diligence of people to promote incessantly? The Kardashians have absolutely no redeeming qualities, have accomplished nothing and yet in America rate higher as "celebrities" than Lance. If they start their own charity lets call it "Kardstrong" would you think it was another self promotion or a truly sincere attempt to use their status to help others? I am sure they would bring alot of focus to any disease they put their names to, (STDs would seem to be a logical tie in:)) If they did start such a charity would it have any less validity than Lance & Livestrong and why?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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MD said:
Did you ever think those people were making fun of you ?

Of course they were making fun of me, but my point was the only cyclist they had ever heard of was LA, because of his.....Celebrity.


and no one said Boonen was not a big name in his little country, but he is not known worldwide like LA. Not sure what the disagreement is about, I'm not pro lance or anything but the man is the a huge celebrity. I'm going to make a thread named Lance Armstrong has 2 arms, and see how many pages that gets of argument.
 
mad black said:
What felonies did LA "probably" commit???
Well, let's see. Acquiring, possession, distribution of controlled medical substances. I use 'may be' because I'm not entirely convinced his misbehavior will actually get prosecuted. If SI ran the story, they had to be ready for long, expensive litigation should the anecdotes retold expose some liability. SI and other media outlets before SI ran parts of the story have good information.

Question 1: What specific sources will qualify as credible proof? Be specific.

mad black said:
Has he done anything morally questionable? - Yes, he "probably" has! Hence my comparison to Tiger.
You are comparing apples (Tiger's serial one-night-stands) to Armstrong's oranges. (Longtime PED customer, multiple felonies) But I'll let that go for now. You are okay with Lance's cheating and he committed felonies while cheating.

Question 2: Are you okay with committing felonies in the course of your life? Yes or No. There's no middle ground.

Question 3: Are you okay with others committing felonies as a means to an end? Yes or no. Be specific.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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mikeNphilly said:
To reply to all of the people that thought my post was silly...
You are confusing greatness with celebrity, of course Eddie is the greatest ever. But he is not a bigger celebrity then Lance, people all over the world know LA, because of his celebrity.

Yes I mentioned the ESPY's, in American sports celebrity scene they are a big thing. SI has done many covers to Lance, as well as a few on LeMond, but the press coverage on Lance dwarfs that of LeMond. Only because of when LeMond won his tours. Reverse the two time frames, Lance in the 80's and Greg in the current scene and it would be the same. Lance the forgotten winner by the mainstream public, and Greg Lemond would be doing commercials for Nike, and hanging out with the cool kids on ESPN/MTV

I started watching cycling in the 80's, Scott..nice try.

This is not a pro Lance fact or a negative Lance fact, it is just a fact. When I can ride my bike through some little town in PA, or NC, or WV and people yell at me GO LANCE!!...well they are not yelling GO EDDIE, or GO Pantini, or hell even BIG MIG!!...it Lance they know, since he is a huge celebrity.
.....and you are confusing what this thread and subsequent posts are about.

Someone earlier said that Lance had done a lot to "promote cycling".
What you are talking about is 'celebrity', that is not "promoting cycling" that is promoting oneself, and Lance is very very good at that.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Any good that Wonderboy may have done for the sport will be erased in the next few years as it becomes clear to even the most ardent groupie that he is a junkie. Unfortunately the sport will also be painted by his foolishness
I believe it more likely that you and the other haters on this forum will have to eat those words. You won't, of course, because you KNOW the truth.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Oldnell said:
I believe it more likely that you and the other haters on this forum will have to eat those words. You won't, of course, because you KNOW the truth.
Do you also believe in miracles?
 
Sep 16, 2010
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mikeNphilly said:
Of course they were making fun of me, but my point was the only cyclist they had ever heard of was LA, because of his.....Celebrity.


and no one said Boonen was not a big name in his little country, but he is not known worldwide like LA. Not sure what the disagreement is about, I'm not pro lance or anything but the man is the a huge celebrity. I'm going to make a thread named Lance Armstrong has 2 arms, and see how many pages that gets of argument.

Mike why would hillbillies know anything about cycling ?
 
May 5, 2009
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Andynonomous said:
How would the cancer patients feel if they knew that Lance may have caused his own cancer through greed to succeed ?
you nailed it. not just for Lance. for everybody. one of the many reasons that this and other horrible deseases are hitting our bodies. our own greedy or evil or unfair behaviour/actions that accumulate and accumulate and one day or in one life result in diseases... now i know, i crossed a line in a cycling forum and put on my helmet for the bashing! :D
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Mad Black - Merckx is indisputably the greatest ever cyclist, including his TdF record, end of.

Armstrong has promoted Armstrong superbly - the sport of cycling? If making the sport synonymous with doping is promotion then he has certainly achieved that. But promoting a real respect for the tradition & history of the sport worldwide, promoting a clean image of the sport by supporting riders who wanted to break the omerta, promoting races outside a very limited calendar? A fail on all counts. The vast majority of 'fans' Armstrong bought to the sport left with him, returned with him and will leave again - and, funnily enough, the sport survived, even thrived, without him.

I can't even be bothered to get into the whole cesspool that is Livestrong the Armstrong slush fund (not to be confused with the grassroots movement that has developed that I have no doubt provides helpful information & support).
 
Jan 20, 2011
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bianchigirl said:
Mad Black - Merckx is indisputably the greatest ever cyclist, including his TdF record, end of.

Armstrong has promoted Armstrong superbly - the sport of cycling? If making the sport synonymous with doping is promotion then he has certainly achieved that. But promoting a real respect for the tradition & history of the sport worldwide, promoting a clean image of the sport by supporting riders who wanted to break the omerta, promoting races outside a very limited calendar? A fail on all counts. The vast majority of 'fans' Armstrong bought to the sport left with him, returned with him and will leave again - and, funnily enough, the sport survived, even thrived, without him.

I can't even be bothered to get into the whole cesspool that is Livestrong the Armstrong slush fund (not to be confused with the grassroots movement that has developed that I have no doubt provides helpful information & support).
You're getting ahead of yourself. To this internet forum Armstrong represents corruption and doping. To most of the outside world he represents hope, raises money against cancer and it looks like he may of doped like every other cyclist out there but there is no smoking gun yet.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
there is no smoking gun yet.
Nicked this from elswhere but its so well worded it needs sharing:

" An inferential cognizer however if a totally valid mind whose object is realised in direct dependence upon a conclusive reason e.g.

I know there is a fire in the house because I can see smoke rising from the chimney.

whilst we can't see the fire directly we know its there based upon our understanding of fires/smoke and chimneys.

Such logic is utilised through most scientific and historical proceedure. Is totally valid and conventionally accepted.

speculation isn't." :D
 
Mar 18, 2009
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In 1999, Armstrong had a chance to stand up for a clean sport by standing alongside Christophe Bassons and speaking out for le velo propre. That he ordered Bassons off the race for some fairly innocuous comments and upheld the omerta spoke volumes about what he stood for - and continues to stand for.
 
May 26, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
You're getting ahead of yourself. To this internet forum Armstrong represents corruption and doping. To most of the outside world he represents hope, raises money against cancer and it looks like he may of doped like every other cyclist out there but there is no smoking gun yet.
he apparently represents hope, he apparently raises money for cancer 'awareness' and it is beginning to become more and more apparent to joe public that doped and he is fraudantly selling nothing more than yellow tat.
 
Jan 20, 2011
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Yes until then people will see Lance more 'good' then 'bad'. Hell I'd say in 10, 15 years times this age Lance will be rationalized in the same way Pantani is.
 
Jun 1, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
Yes until then people will see Lance more 'good' then 'bad'. Hell I'd say in 10, 15 years times this age Lance will be rationalized in the same way Pantani is.
Sorry I don't see that happening. Lance may try to re-invent himself as an anti-hero, but Pantani represented something much more. The difference was the way they conducted themselves on and off the bike. I think that's why the tifosi look past his doping and embrace Pantani, for all his flaws. A tragic hero.
 
May 26, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
Yes until then people will see Lance more 'good' then 'bad'. Hell I'd say in 10, 15 years times this age Lance will be rationalized in the same way Pantani is.
Pantani is seen as a sporting hero in a country where cycling is very popular and a sport with a long tradition of working class heroes, it also happens to be a country that has no problems with Italians 'bending' rules.

Armstrong is a star of a minority sport in a country that will never see it as anything other than a minority sport. he's known as the cancer guy who won a bike race in France a few times. he'll soon be known as the cancer guy who took loads and loads of drugs to win a bike race in France a few times and his charity is bent too
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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onefastgear said:
Sorry I don't see that happening. Lance may try to re-invent himself as an anti-hero, but Pantani represented something much more. The difference was the way they conducted themselves on and off the bike. I think that's why the tifosi look past his doping and embrace Pantani, for all his flaws. A tragic hero.
Pantani was a great climber, a winner and Italian. Other than that why is he so endeared by the tifosi? I personally see no charm in the man, divorced, depressed and with more than a little attraction to cocaine.
Please, explain why he is loved?
 
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