The Middle Path: make cycling easier or allow some doping

[andy1234]

I go for making cycling easier.

Start off by making each race only 100 metres long.
Dont go up hills, keep it on the flat.
Put the events on in a nice stadium
Only compete about 10 times a year.

Any event run under those conditions would strongly discourage the use of HGH, steroids and EPO.

Just ask Marion Jones.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Recreational drug use and PED use are similar. Society deems one necessary to live, athletes deems one necessary to make a living.

Prohibition does not work. Hence society and the government in their collective wisdom deems alcohol and cigarettes legal and other drugs are not. That has to do with cultural reasons and issues about public health (debatable) but they are legal anyway.

Similarly all PEDs are not the same. You can allow some and prohibit others set on some criteria.

I'd be happy with Maxiton's last paragraph.

Recreational drug use and PED use are not even remotely similar.

The motivations to take either are completely different.
If you wanted to use recreational drugs it has little impact* on anyone else to use or take recreational drugs.

But when an athlete takes PEDs and gets a boost in performance it forces other athletes to make a decision to dope or not as it is their livelihood on the line.
Again Bassons said it best:

“Everyone has their own sense of legitimate and illegitimate, which is different from what is licit and illicit".

*Unless you try and steal my telly to support your habit, but then I'll shoot you.

 

[bartender]

What are we going to do about all of these medical school sports medicine programs? Limit their work to how to set broken bones and diet advice? Ban all research involving chemical lab work? What is dicovered in the lab will inevitably be used in the field (or the peloton).I'm 55 years old. Love my personal PEDs:
Coffee, Advil, etc. Works great in moderation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Lifetime bans, license revocations and criminal penalties will all but eliminate doping. Once these things are in place and accepted, and once there is a reliable test to detect autologous transfusion, then that too can be added to the list of prohibited practices.

'Ferminal' gave an excellent answer at the shortcomings with your statement.

However your solutions have partially addressed the ways forward - (except they appear to punish only the athlete) - ie appropriate sanctions and better coordination between the sporting system and the criminal/justice system.


As for allowing 'blood transfusions' - LMG gave an excellent answer, but I would add that it would allow 'debate' that there are better, safer and more convenient methods.....like EPO etc - and the circle of deceit continues.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What are we going to do about all of these medical school sports medicine programs? Limit their work to how to set broken bones and diet advice? Ban all research involving chemical lab work? What is dicovered in the lab will inevitably be used in the field (or the peloton).I'm 55 years old. Love my personal PEDs:
Coffee, Advil, etc. Works great in moderation.

No.

The discussion is about Performance Enhancing Drugs in sport.

 

[Sanitiser]

Recreational drug use and PED use are not even remotely similar.

The motivations to take either are completely different.
If you wanted to use recreational drugs it has little impact* on anyone else to use or take recreational drugs.

But when an athlete takes PEDs and gets a boost in performance it forces other athletes to make a decision to dope or not as it is their livelihood on the line.
Again Bassons said it best:



*Unless you try and steal my telly to support your habit, but then I'll shoot you.

Now I can get all self righteous. What about all the families affected by drug addiction? The people caught in the illicit trade and manufacture of these drugs? Or the victims of abuse or rape due to drug use?

“To me, courage is all about overcoming fear, and I was never scared. I was just lucky - I’d had a balanced upbringing, lots of love in my life, and no void which made me want to dope. Refusing to take drugs was easy for me, whereas other people have things missing in their lives which mean that’s not the case. Doping is always a response to a void, a need – whether it’s for money, or success, or love, or something else. That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too”

Now you give that quote to anyone on the street. Ask them what it's about. I bet they say recreational drug use. The reason why people use drugs is the same it's the extra 'edge' to life.

 

[Darryl Webster]

The first quote was related to the health of the riders as well if I remember correctly.

For me autologous transfusions are produced by the riders own body there is nothing really extraneous about it (subjective). Those transfusions could be then used when it was deemed it was healthy to however the process was transparent and even.

Funnily enough when the news of the American teams use of what I took to be autogenous transfusion at the 84 Olympics I was a rider at those games and knew nothing of the gains it might give.
I pondered for a long time if felt it was ethical and realy couldnt find a negative to it IF it was done safely and under surgical conditions.
However moraly I felt it was wrong ( for me) and that my belief that I should accept whatever my natural limitations were and that once a sport reguired, from in infection perspective, great risk via method such as transfusions it was time to step back and get some perspective.
Now I understand the gains it becomes unethical because bottom line is put two exact same riders side by side and dope the one and that ones in another catogory.
It`s no longer a sporting contest.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Now I can get all self righteous. What about all the families affected by drug addiction? The people caught in the illicit trade and manufacture of these drugs? Or the victims of abuse or rape due to drug use?

Honestly - I have no idea what your point is.

How would your point of using 'safe drugs' change any of what you wrote? (Which is a social consequence to drug abuse not a personal consequence)

Now you give that quote to anyone on the street. Ask them what it's about. I bet they say recreational drug use. The reason why people use drugs is the same it's the extra 'edge' to life.

He didn't give his quote to anyone on the street - he gave it to CN in the context of his job with AFLD.

And again you are talking about the motivations to take drugs and confusing that with PEDs.
Would you take EPO, HGH, and a 'blood bag' to get an 'edge' for recreational purposes?

 

[Angliru]

Medical professionals would determine what a safe HCT range would be (for an individual or carte blanche) and then 'administer' EPO to that level.

Also the system would not be just using carrots. Say if riders were found using PEDs outside the system they would get a lifetime ban for instance.

If riders do not want to use the system that would be fine since all the information would be public. Some fans would respect an 'unassited' third than an 'assisted' first.

That is not a level playing field. The rider that is "unassisted" finishing third loses the privelege of actually crossing the line first because the "assisted" rider beat him to it, of course with hands raised in celebration. It just wouldn't be the same for the "unassisted" rider to raise his hands. Additionally
if they're in the same race, there would have to be something that distinguishes one from the other, and that something would have to be extremely significant visually, otherwise it would have an effect on the outcome of the races of the two factions.

 

[Sanitiser]

Honestly - I have no idea what your point is.

How would your point of using 'safe drugs' change any of what you wrote? (Which is a social consequence to drug abuse not a personal consequence)

No you went self-righteous when I advocated 'safe doping' and pointed out all the people who died. Also who says recreational drug use is not caused by peer pressure as well as other factors?

He didn't give his quote to anyone on the street - he gave it to CN in the context of his job with AFLD.

And again you are talking about the motivations to take drugs and confusing that with PEDs.
Would you take EPO, HGH, and a 'blood bag' to get an 'edge' for recreational purposes?

People try to solve their problems many ways. One way is through recreation, the other is through achievement through work. Drugs give an 'edge' in both.
Do they need to take drugs? Probably not. But they do it because they think it'll make it easier which is the point Bassons is making.

Also I argue recreational drug use is performance enhancing in drunken hook ups.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No you went self-righteous when I advocated 'safe doping' and pointed out all the people who died. Also who says recreational drug use is not caused by peer pressure as well as other factors?

It is not 'self righteous' to point out that doping is not safe, it is a sad fact of this sport.

Peer pressure.
You see this is where you have not grasped Bassons overall point.
Its easy to say that rec drugs are taken because of peer pressure, thats the overall. What Bassons was addressing was the underlying factors that puts some people more at risk and identifying those factors.

People try to solve their problems many ways. One way is through recreation, the other is through achievement through work. Drugs give an 'edge' in both.
Do they need to take drugs? Probably not. But they do it because they think it'll make it easier which is the point Bassons is making.

Also I argue recreational drug use is performance enhancing in drunken hook ups.

Problems? What 'problems' does an athlete have that forces them to consider using PEDs?


(Joke) As for 'drunken hook ups' - is that an olympic event? Are you in competition??
If you are admitting that you have to get yourself drunk to get laid then I refer back to Bassons point of addressing an underlying problem.

 

[Sanitiser]

peer pressure as well as other factors.

Why do people take rec. drugs? To have fun, forget, avoid stress etc

Are you being obtuse? Bassons says:

For Richard Virenque, doping was legitimate because, for some reason, he needed the love and admiration of the public. For some riders from Eastern Europe it’s legitimate because they need money for their families – which is hard to condemn.

and on Lance

With him, I think it’s obvious there was a need for success. He didn’t have a relationship with his father, and his upbringing wasn’t easy, then I think what was already a hard character probably became more and more entrenched in those ways as he got a bit of success with triathlon and then in cycling, plus money and adulation….”

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why do people take rec. drugs? To have fun, forget, avoid stress etc

Are you being obtuse? Bassons says:

and on Lance

Ding, ding.....

Recreational drugs: (using your term, with which I agree)
Fun.
Forget.
Avoid stress.

PEDs: (to borrow Bassons quotes)
Adulation - "he needed the love and admiration of the public".
Financial pressures - "they need money for their families – which is hard to condemn"
Ambition - "need for success"


More importantly - if a person goes and does recreational drugs for the reasons you offer, it has nothing to do with anyone else having to take recreational drugs.

That is not what happens with PEDs as the user gains a distinct advantage.

 

[Sanitiser]

Ding, ding.....

Recreational drugs: (using your term, with which I agree)
Fun.
Forget.
Avoid stress.

PEDs: (to borrow Bassons quotes)
Adulation - "he needed the love and admiration of the public".
Financial pressures - "they need money for their families – which is hard to condemn"
Ambition - "need for success"

And what causes stress and worry? Money, love and ambition.

More importantly - if a person goes and does recreational drugs for the reasons you offer, it has nothing to do with anyone else having to take recreational drugs.
That is not what happens with PEDs as the user gains a distinct advantage.

That is not my point at all. The point is that it is natural that people with similar issues in a cohesive social environment will turn to the same things to solve their problems. Which is a more holistic approach than you and Bassons take.
In any case you don't really understand human behaviour.

 

[Polish]

Bassons was talking about Medical Drugs (PEDs) not recreational drugs.

Unlike recreational drugs, Medical Drugs (PEDs) are safer and beneficial to one's health. Medical drugs (PEDs) are healthy for a TdF rider.

That is the point that Basson was making.
Attacking PEDs in cycling for health reasons is incorrect.

It is the administration of the medical drugs (PEDs) in Pro cycling that can become dangerous. Quack Doctors at Kelme for example.

Quack doctors prescribing Medical Drugs can hurt your kids.
Prescription drug abuse can hurt the kids. HUGE problem there.
And the Pusher Man can hurt your kids.

The argument to allow Medical Drugs (PEDs) in sport is based on Professional Medical Administration, although Bassons did not discuss this debate.

I would assume he would be against Medical Drugs (PEDs) in Pro Cycling - he works for the AFLD lol.

 

[andy1234]

Bassons was talking about Medical Drugs (PEDs) not recreational drugs.

Unlike recreational drugs, Medical Drugs (PEDs) are safer and beneficial to one's health. Medical drugs (PEDs) are healthy for a TdF rider.

That is the point that Basson was making.
Attacking PEDs in cycling for health reasons is incorrect.

It is the administration of the medical drugs (PEDs) in Pro cycling that can become dangerous. Quack Doctors at Kelme for example.

Quack doctors prescribing Medical Drugs can hurt your kids.
Prescription drug abuse can hurt the kids. HUGE problem there.
And the Pusher Man can hurt your kids.

The argument to allow Medical Drugs (PEDs) in sport is based on Professional Medical Administration, although Bassons did not discuss this debate.

I would assume he would be against Medical Drugs (PEDs) in Pro Cycling - he works for the AFLD lol.

No. What Bassons is saying is that attacking PEDs on health grounds is INEFFECTIVE, not wrong.

He's saying If PED use fulfills a void in someone, the threat of damage to health or even death, is no deterrent. The alternative, that of an unfulfilled life, is unacceptable.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And what causes stress and worry? Money, love and ambition.


That is not my point at all. The point is that it is natural that people with similar issues in a cohesive social environment will turn to the same things to solve their problems. Which is a more holistic approach than you and Bassons take.
In any case you don't really understand human behaviour.

Seriously - people take recreational drugs to get high for money, love and ambition??


Your point in the second paragraph is very far removed from your OP and a lot closer to Bassons;

This comes from two perspectives in the sport. The first from an Italian official who said tours should be easier so that riders feel less inclined to dope (I can't find the quote). The second is from Bassons:

That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

I'd be for blood transfusions.

I look forward to you sharing with me what I don't understand about human behaviour.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No. What Bassons is saying is that attacking PEDs on health grounds is INEFFECTIVE, not wrong.

He's saying If PED use fulfills a void in someone, the threat of damage to health or even death, is no deterrent. The alternative, that of an unfulfilled life, is unacceptable.

Correct - some people read his "health" quote in isolation, but when you read the full context of what he says it is quite easy to understand.

To me, courage is all about overcoming fear, and I was never scared. I was just lucky - I’d had a balanced upbringing, lots of love in my life, and no void which made me want to dope. Refusing to take drugs was easy for me, whereas other people have things missing in their lives which mean that’s not the case. Doping is always a response to a void, a need – whether it’s for money, or success, or love, or something else. That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

 

[Polish]

No. What Bassons is saying is that attacking PEDs on health grounds is INEFFECTIVE, not wrong.

He's saying If PED use fulfills a void in someone, the threat of damage to health or even death, is no deterrent. The alternative, that of an unfulfilled life, is unacceptable.

I agree that Bassons says attacking PEDs on health grounds is ineffective.

My point was that Bassons said PEDs are GOOD for your health

you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

But I am still of the opinion that Bassons is against PED use at the Tour.
He works at the AFLD after all. Just my opinion though.

 

[Sanitiser]

Seriously - people take recreational drugs to get high for money, love and ambition??

I look forward to you sharing with me what I don't understand about human behaviour.

No. It's exactly because they don't have those things. QED you don't know anything about human behavior.

 

[MacRoadie]

No. What Bassons is saying is that attacking PEDs on health grounds is INEFFECTIVE, not wrong.

He's saying If PED use fulfills a void in someone, the threat of damage to health or even death, is no deterrent. The alternative, that of an unfulfilled life, is unacceptable.

Exactly.

It's the difference between needing to win, and needing to win as a way to satisfy a deeper psychological need.

For some the victory in and of it's self is the goal, the "payout" if you will. For others, the win is just a means to acheive some other goal.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No. It's exactly because they don't have those things. QED you don't know anything about human behavior.

...And a cyclist has the potential to get all those through their sport.... without PEDs.

However when PEDs are prevelant in a sport like cycling it adds another reason to take PEDs.

By all means share your knowledge of human behaviour - it would add to the discussion.

 

[Ferminal]

Who cares about Coke and Amphetamines anymore? Next big night I'm getting on the EPO and hGH, maybe friends could even "share the love" and run a few homogolous transfusions.

 

[stainlessguy1]

make cycling easier or allow some doping ?

Getting back to the original thread :

i dont think you need too change anything in cycling or race length , except the doping .
Take away the Doping and already racing becomes easier, through a lot less crashing , less giant bunch sprints and a more human aspect of the sport itself .

 

[Maxiton]

um, no.

autologous transfusions are only minimally effective without synthetic EPO to stimulate erythropoiesis, especially after a withdrawal. because red cells can only be stored for about 2 months, the penalty for withdraw offsets much of the benefit of reinfusion. freezing instead of refrigerating cells would be one work-around but then you create inequities based upon access to healthcare professionals and more complex procedures. also, remember that WADA code applies to all, pro's, elite amateurs, and over competitive masters alike. no one, absolutely NO ONE, is going to adhere strictly to autologous transfusions and little else. in fact, there are all kinds of ripple effects i don't care to go into, think about the interpretation of blood profiles that consist of these wild fluctuations - just thinking of those makes me laugh and then kind of gives me a headache. legal auto transfusions in isolation is a fantasy.

Perhaps then that is why our friend sanitiser is for them. As for me, I only suggested this because there is really no way of testing for it and they are doing it anyway. Having it be outlawed is sort of like outlawing altitude tents, isn't it? I mean, it's kind of counterproductive to make laws you can't enforce. If you say to riders this is now legal, and they were doing it anyway, nothing's changed except that now you've given them a chance to restore their sense of integrity.

Not really...

Making it more likely to be caught will reduce doping.

I mean, tougher penalties will have a bit of an effect, but will not "all but eliminate doping". It becomes fairly irrelevant when the chance of being caught is rather low. There needs to be a greater likelihood of being sanctioned combined with tougher penalties across the board.

But that is not considering justice issues with harsher penalties.

They aren't catching them by and large because they don't really want to catch the vast majority, obviously. They don't really want to stop doping. At all. They just want to make a good show of it. The case with Contador shows that when they really want to catch them, they can. (I won't get into the UCI's supposed attempt to cover up the positive except to ask why his sample was given extra scrutiny in the first place.)

I guarantee that lifetime bans for a first offense, coupled with real testing and possible criminal charges - in other words, for the first time ever getting serious about PED use - will have the desired affect. Additionally, loss of license for teams and criminal sanctions for facilitating doping will let no one off the hook.

'Ferminal' gave an excellent answer at the shortcomings with your statement.

However your solutions have partially addressed the ways forward - (except they appear to punish only the athlete) - ie appropriate sanctions and better coordination between the sporting system and the criminal/justice system.


As for allowing 'blood transfusions' - LMG gave an excellent answer, but I would add that it would allow 'debate' that there are better, safer and more convenient methods.....like EPO etc - and the circle of deceit continues.

But no where did I say "athletes only." On the contrary, start holding team owners and managers criminally liable. That will get their attention.

And as for debate: I'm fixing a problem here, not running a democracy.