The Middle Path: make cycling easier or allow some doping

[Ferminal]

They aren't catching them by and large because they don't really want to catch the vast majority, obviously. They don't really want to stop doping. At all. They just want to make a good show of it. The case with Contador shows that when they really want to catch them, they can. (I won't get into the UCI's supposed attempt to cover up the positive except to ask why his sample was given extra scrutiny in the first place.)

Well that's not the same as having Pat come out and say the UCI is implementing lifetime bans.

The scenario is so alien - we could never move to such a position with the UCI as it is today.

 

[Maxiton]

Well that's not the same as having Pat come out and say the UCI is implementing lifetime bans.

The scenario is so alien - we could never move to such a position with the UCI as it is today.

If somebody offered Pat enough money under the table he'd be happy to announce a new dawn for the sport: the merging of the Pro Tour with the World Wrestling Federation. The UCI as it stands today is 95% of what's wrong with pro cycling. If corruption in the UCI isn't addressed, things will only get worse.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Perhaps then that is why our friend sanitiser is for them. As for me, I only suggested this because there is really no way of testing for it and they are doing it anyway. Having it be outlawed is sort of like outlawing altitude tents, isn't it? I mean, it's kind of counterproductive to make laws you can't enforce. If you say to riders this is now legal, and they were doing it anyway, nothing's changed except that now you've given them a chance to restore their sense of integrity.

Re Blood doping not being a rule thats enforceable - tell that to Basso or Valverde

They aren't catching them by and large because they don't really want to catch the vast majority, obviously. They don't really want to stop doping. At all. They just want to make a good show of it. The case with Contador shows that when they really want to catch them, they can. (I won't get into the UCI's supposed attempt to cover up the positive except to ask why his sample was given extra scrutiny in the first place.)

To answer the highlighted - remember AFLD were allowed provide information to WADA on who to test - this information was delivered to the testers as late as possible. This was done to keep the UCI out of the loop.

I guarantee that lifetime bans for a first offense, coupled with real testing and possible criminal charges - in other words, for the first time ever getting serious about PED use - will have the desired affect. Additionally, loss of license for teams and criminal sanctions for facilitating doping will let no one off the hook.

I'm against lifetime bans for a number of reasons. What happens if someone with asthma takes an extra puff on their inhaler.
Also - as 'Alpe' here often states, it is not the punishment that is necessarily the deterrent, it is the certainty of returning a positive - we are nowhere near that at the moment.

But no where did I say "athletes only." On the contrary, start holding team owners and managers criminally liable. That will get their attention.

And as for debate: I'm fixing a problem here, not running a democracy.

Ya - its why I said your idea "appears" to punish the rider the most.
I agree that sanctions need to hit teams and managers harder.
Brilliant last line!!

 

[runninboy]

Hey i got an idea lets try one stage of the TDF without radios
but also with the juice,
the night before everyone will go to an area like the morning sign in
and Ferrari can shoot everyone up to have the same hemo #of 55, to add a little irony everyone will then be given a glass of Orange juice, then they will pose for a picture with Ferrari and a life size cut out of OJ Simpson.

the next morning a small amount of blood will be drawn, anyone with a level above 55 will not be allowed to start(How dare they try to cheat?!!!)
the sample will be held for post testing and the results of the stage and the tour will have an asterisk for a period of not less than 7 years at that time the results will become official and further testing or protests will not be considered.

It will make for great commentating i can hear Phil now"Alberto Contador the cheeky little matador from Spain and the provisional winner of potentially 4 tours and 9 overall is having another go at his former boss the original Mr 55 Bjarne Riis. There is some specualtion how a man in his 60's can compete in the TDF but here he is matching pedal strokes with the best climber in the World. There are allegations of synthetic sheeps urine being found in Bjarne;s blood but he attributes its presence to a meal cooked by his former girlfriend ex ballet dancer Gelsey Kirkland, LA must be extremly disappointed that he can't be here"
Paul Sherwin adds"Yes absolutely Phil I spoke to Lance and he has been training diligently in prison in anticipation of his upcoming parole hearing. His shiv wounds have almost healed and he is really looking forward to being out in time for next years Tour of California. However there is still some speculation that the race director Greg Lemond owner of Trek/Oakley harbors some grudge and might actually keep Lance from competing."
"Well Paul that surprises me, I have know both these men for many years and while i know they had a bit of a spat once i really find it hard to believe that the director of the richest cycling race on the planet would stand in the way of the greatest comeback since serial killer Floyd Landis returned to cycling to take the World's. I just don't think Greg would do that..."

 

[lean mean &green]

Perhaps then that is why our friend sanitiser is for them. As for me, I only suggested this because there is really no way of testing for it and they are doing it anyway. Having it be outlawed is sort of like outlawing altitude tents, isn't it? I mean, it's kind of counterproductive to make laws you can't enforce. If you say to riders this is now legal, and they were doing it anyway, nothing's changed except that now you've given them a chance to restore their sense of integrity.

there are ways to test for autologous transfusions. they are mostly indirect rather than direct but they certainly exist. creating a closely monitored blood profile is one way in which it's being done. enforcement based upon this method is obviously hit or miss so far but it's already created a situation in which transfusions are risky and only "legal" within tight tolerances.

another indirect measure is the possession of stored blood, documents, medical supplies used for transfusing blood, etc that are solid evidence of transfusions or intentions to transfuse. IOW, the operation puerto detection method.

there are direct measures on the horizon as well. there's the much talked about plasticizer tests but there are others in the pipeline also.

 

[Altitude]

Getting back to the original thread :

i dont think you need too change anything in cycling or race length , except the doping .
Take away the Doping and already racing becomes easier, through a lot less crashing , less giant bunch sprints and a more human aspect of the sport itself .

Doping causes crashes now? That's a new one.

Not sure how eliminating doping would make a field sprint more selective either.

 

[Maxiton]

Hey i got an idea lets try one stage of the TDF without radios
but also with the juice,
the night before everyone will go to an area like the morning sign in
and Ferrari can shoot everyone up to have the same hemo #of 55, to add a little irony everyone will then be given a glass of Orange juice, then they will pose for a picture with Ferrari and a life size cut out of OJ Simpson.

the next morning a small amount of blood will be drawn, anyone with a level above 55 will not be allowed to start(How dare they try to cheat?!!!)
the sample will be held for post testing and the results of the stage and the tour will have an asterisk for a period of not less than 7 years at that time the results will become official and further testing or protests will not be considered.

It will make for great commentating i can hear Phil now"Alberto Contador the cheeky little matador from Spain and the provisional winner of potentially 4 tours and 9 overall is having another go at his former boss the original Mr 55 Bjarne Riis. There is some specualtion how a man in his 60's can compete in the TDF but here he is matching pedal strokes with the best climber in the World. There are allegations of synthetic sheeps urine being found in Bjarne;s blood but he attributes its presence to a meal cooked by his former girlfriend ex ballet dancer Gelsey Kirkland, LA must be extremly disappointed that he can't be here"
Paul Sherwin adds"Yes absolutely Phil I spoke to Lance and he has been training diligently in prison in anticipation of his upcoming parole hearing. His shiv wounds have almost healed and he is really looking forward to being out in time for next years Tour of California. However there is still some speculation that the race director Greg Lemond owner of Trek/Oakley harbors some grudge and might actually keep Lance from competing."
"Well Paul that surprises me, I have know both these men for many years and while i know they had a bit of a spat once i really find it hard to believe that the director of the richest cycling race on the planet would stand in the way of the greatest comeback since serial killer Floyd Landis returned to cycling to take the World's. I just don't think Greg would do that..."

I think one would be well justified in calling this post F'n EPIC.

 

[stainlessguy1]

Doping causes crashes now? That's a new one.

Not sure how eliminating doping would make a field sprint more selective either.

because there wont be enough people left for a field sprint . The group is torn apart because there arent many that can manage the distance and the cobbles ........ even with dope or without dope , check the abandonment rate of one of the toughest classics .

 

[Maxiton]

Re Blood doping not being a rule thats enforceable - tell that to Basso or Valverde

They got lucky when they found Valverde's blood bags; but even then it took the crafty Italians to match up, probably for political reasons, his DNA from his rest day sample. They never did prove that he'd actually transfused, though. It was all circumstantial.

As for Basso, he was suspended for a thought crime, don't forget: he only thought about blood doping.

To answer the highlighted - remember AFLD were allowed provide information to WADA on who to test - this information was delivered to the testers as late as possible. This was done to keep the UCI out of the loop.

Are you sure UCI was out of the loop on the testing of Contador, as well as the decision to send his sample to that lab for special scrutiny? If you are sure, you're ruining my conspiracy theory.

I'm against lifetime bans for a number of reasons. What happens if someone with asthma takes an extra puff on their inhaler.
Also - as 'Alpe' here often states, it is not the punishment that is necessarily the deterrent, it is the certainty of returning a positive - we are nowhere near that at the moment.

Here's the thing about lifetime bans. I agree that they are draconian and that if implemented more than one innocent rider will be banned by mistake or through sabotage. That is unfortunate, but we agree we have a problem in the sport, right? If it isn't fixed an even greater number will die, as they have in the past, from messed up doping practices.

Up to now the word has gone out that the sport demands that you dope, and demands as well that you not get caught. In order to break this paradigm extreme measures are required. If you're not up for extreme measures, that's fine, but then don't complain when the problem isn't resolved, the occasional young rider drops dead inexplicably, and the sport looks vaguely fake.

Ya - its why I said your idea "appears" to punish the rider the most.
I agree that sanctions need to hit teams and managers harder.
Brilliant last line!!

Thanks, Doc, high praise indeed. Cheers.

 

[Maxiton]

there are ways to test for autologous transfusions. they are mostly indirect rather than direct but they certainly exist. creating a closely monitored blood profile is one way in which it's being done. enforcement based upon this method is obviously hit or miss so far but it's already created a situation in which transfusions are risky and only "legal" within tight tolerances.

another indirect measure is the possession of stored blood, documents, medical supplies used for transfusing blood, etc that are solid evidence of transfusions or intentions to transfuse. IOW, the operation puerto detection method.

there are direct measures on the horizon as well. there's the much talked about plasticizer tests but there are others in the pipeline also.

The blood passport , right. Plus a few things on the horizon. Great, call me when they get here.

 

[Roninho]

This comes from two perspectives in the sport. The first from an Italian official who said tours should be easier so that riders feel less inclined to dope (I can't find the quote).

Ben Johnson. Justin Gatlin. Marion Jones. Dwain Chambers. Tim Montgomery.

Yeah, let's make the 100 meter sprint the 70 meter sprint, that will stop those dopers.

It isn't about the distance or the number of mountain stages. You can get a bunch of a-amateur racers and they can do 20 mountain stages in 3 weeks, no problem, they will just go slower.

The problem is people want to win and are willing to dope for it. As long as you cannot detect this with a good detection rate doping will continue.

 

[runninboy]

I think one would be well justified in calling this post F'n EPIC.

thank u i made it mahseff

 

[runninboy]

Doping causes crashes now? That's a new one.

Not sure how eliminating doping would make a field sprint more selective either.

Well maybe the theory is less testosterone fueled bravado. As i get older and i have less hormones the less i feel inclined to stick my bike in places where it won't go, say in between riders at 55kph.

and also if it becomes more about natural instead of enhance ability the races might get strung out more. If they keep the same distance alot of riders are going to blow. Also you have to choose your "good days" One aspect of doping it is your recovery. No man runs a 2:10 marathon and follows it up with a 2:10 the next day. If you attack in the mountains in the TDF you have to measure your energy expenditure. Will i gain enough time today to make up for the time i lose tommorrow? If you watch the tours with Lemond & Fignon or Roche & Delgado the lead see sawed, one day one rider attacks, but the next day he tries to limit his losses. Very rare to see someone put time in the main rival two days in a row.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They got lucky when they found Valverde's blood bags; but even then it took the crafty Italians to match up, probably for political reasons, his DNA from his rest day sample. They never did prove that he'd actually transfused, though. It was all circumstantial.



As for Basso, he was suspended for a thought crime, don't forget: he only thought about blood doping.

I am all for crafty.
Traditional drug tests catch very few people - if the desire is there to catch the dopers then it needs all agencies working together.

(Valverdes blood had EPO in it & Basso spent €70,000 p/a to store blood!)

Are you sure UCI was out of the loop on the testing of Contador, as well as the decision to send his sample to that lab for special scrutiny? If you are sure, you're ruining my conspiracy theory.

Whats your theory? Sadly we won't know for sure until this goes to CAS and they release their judgment.

Here's the thing about lifetime bans. I agree that they are draconian and that if implemented more than one innocent rider will be banned by mistake or through sabotage. That is unfortunate, but we agree we have a problem in the sport, right? If it isn't fixed an even greater number will die, as they have in the past, from messed up doping practices.

Up to now the word has gone out that the sport demands that you dope, and demands as well that you not get caught. In order to break this paradigm extreme measures are required. If you're not up for extreme measures, that's fine, but then don't complain when the problem isn't resolved, the occasional young rider drops dead inexplicably, and the sport looks vaguely fake.

Agree there is a problem in the sport - but my view is that doping has actually never ever been tackled with any real intention of catching and dealing with dopers.

Rather than introducing new measures I would like to see the existing ones implemented.

Thanks, Doc, high praise indeed. Cheers.

Ha, not high praise - but I always enjoy intelligent debate and in particular when there is humor added.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Regarding the OP, first, I agree with Roninho. Sprinters dope, so shorter races aren't going to stop doping. Furthermore, if you look back to the 1970's and beyond, water intake was limited in races. It's arguably what killed Tom Simpson.

But if you go back further than that, to WWII and beyond you'll find the courses were much more difficult, and some rules as well: Many of the roads were on cobblestones; nearly all the mountain passes were dirt; early riders had to make their own repairs; and stages often exceeded 300km, some 400km. The primary drugs of choice then were whiskey and strychnine...

Also - as 'Alpe' here often states, it is not the punishment that is necessarily the deterrent, it is the certainty of returning a positive - we are nowhere near that at the moment.

Indeed.

 

[stainlessguy1]

Regarding the OP, first, I agree with Roninho. Sprinters dope, so shorter races aren't going to stop doping. Furthermore, if you look back to the 1970's and beyond, water intake was limited in races. It's arguably what killed Tom Simpson.

But if you go back further than that, to WWII and beyond you'll find the courses were much more difficult, and some rules as well: Many of the roads were on cobblestones; nearly all the mountain passes were dirt; early riders had to make their own repairs; and stages often exceeded 300km, some 400km. The primary drugs of choice then were whiskey and strychnine...



Indeed.

Yes this is true , and our knowledge of the bodies performance needs such as plain simple water and lots of it , was not as far advanced as today .
You will see old photos of the top riders lighting up cigarettes before the mountain stages and having a smoke before the climb as they thought it gives them more air after , that it opens up the lungs a bit . Lots of people smoked in those days , shovelled coal as jobs , etc. Life was harder by lack of modern day ammenities. ( It was already known at this time that the huge requirements for air in the lungs was required to do the mountain stages )
Everyone rode a bike , cars were just begining and not everyone had one . IN fact most didnt .
If you check out the bikes , some races , no gearing . If you wanted to change gears you needed to stop and move the wheel forward and manually put the chain on another sprocket .
I remember being taught that the time trials you rode one gear against the wind and on the way back you changed to a bigger gear at the turn .
When derailleurs were invented i believe the front derailleur was a lever that you reached down to push from side to side to change the chainrings .
WE have come a long way since then .

 

[stainlessguy1]

because there wont be enough people left for a field sprint . The group is torn apart because there arent many that can manage the distance and the cobbles ........ even with dope or without dope , check the abandonment rate of one of the toughest classics .

Well maybe the theory is less testosterone fueled bravado. As i get older and i have less hormones the less i feel inclined to stick my bike in places where it won't go, say in between riders at 55kph.

and also if it becomes more about natural instead of enhance ability the races might get strung out more. If they keep the same distance alot of riders are going to blow. Also you have to choose your "good days" One aspect of doping it is your recovery. No man runs a 2:10 marathon and follows it up with a 2:10 the next day. If you attack in the mountains in the TDF you have to measure your energy expenditure. Will i gain enough time today to make up for the time i lose tommorrow? If you watch the tours with Lemond & Fignon or Roche & Delgado the lead see sawed, one day one rider attacks, but the next day he tries to limit his losses. Very rare to see someone put time in the main rival two days in a row.

Well said Runningboy .
I am sorry i didnt finish my quote that day , but when i read yours it says it all .
The Brain also takes a small hit when a rider is doped . The false sense of security that the athlete is given that leads to making decisions that one would normally not make while racing . When a person thinks their body is invincible anything can happen .
Example , would you really take that corner at that speed in the rain , on oil , on cobbles during a time trial ? My guess is not . A human brain naturally defaults to its safety comfort zone during high stress and the need for self preservation in that instance .