The Monuments Men – Or who will win all 5 of them?

[King Boonen]

Re:

The thing, and dont get angry for this, is that people in these forums use to overestimate monuments because that way they believe they are more cycling fans and they know more about the sport.

And that's the point to end all discussion with this poster.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Most people dont know the monuments Merckx or Hinault won, they know they won 5 Tours and others GTs

I doubt that most people who don't know about the monuments they won, know about the Giri and Vueltas that they both won either.

There are probably more casual followers of the Tour de France in the world than there are genuine fans of cycling as a sport in general. Which is why it's both by far the biggest races, and produces the most famous names in the sport. I don't think it's to do with GTs v monuments in general. Just the Tour.

Who cares about casual followers of TdF and who cares about history.

Froome will never have in England status similar to Boonen in Belgium nor Sagan in Slovakia.

But what about Quintana in Colombia? It's not black and white...

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

The thing, and dont get angry for this, is that people in these forums use to overestimate monuments because that way they believe they are more cycling fans and they know more about the sport.

And that's the point to end all discussion with this poster.

You are very kind

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

The thing, and dont get angry for this, is that people in these forums use to overestimate monuments because that way they believe they are more cycling fans and they know more about the sport.

Exactly! Spot on!

 

[Shardi]

With the current routes of the races - Is it fair to say that in order to win all five monuments over the course of a riders career, the rider has to alter its physique/skills according to a certain pattern in order to maximize the chances of winning each race = have a certain number of tries at each race with an acceptable physical characteristic = beeing on par with the best contenders, beeing rated close to -or- 1, in a normalized skill-set comparison of the current contending field, on several of those occations for a given targeted race?

An example:

Early stage of career: Break through at age 20 as a medium/light weight puncheur, suitable for shorter climbs. Thinking the lieks of early Kwiatkowski or Alaphilippe currently. Win either Leige / Lombardia before age 27-28.

Mid stage career: Increase weight/power slightly. Increase in endurance/throughput in the endgame. Win Milan-San Remo and the other puncheur/climber monument that is lacking. Ride roubaix for experience only.

Late stage career: Bulk up even more. Shift focus towards ronde and roubaix. Target ronde first as it is the more natural transition from the hilly classics. Ride Roubaix to get the experience.

End of career: Bulk up and focus everything on Roubaix. Collect the last monument win.

Sidenotes: The other transition I.e. Break through as a cobbled rider winning roubaix/ronde, and then shifting towards climbing in late stage of the career.. Are there any examples of a skill-set transition throughout a riders career in this direction in the current/past field?

This transition pattern fits Gilberts career trajectory -Should he have won Milano-Sanremo in 2010 or more likely in 2011 as has been mentioned in this thread previously- abit. Also taken into account that The lombardia route was significantly more punchy and less climby at the time of his two wins, of course.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

So the conclusion is that most of you had been classics riders. But the truth is that the GTs riders/winners are the most known. Usually when It speaks about the greatest in the sport are almost always GT champions.
If you ask me, Id chose to be Indurain or Contador instead of Museuw, Bartoli, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert, etc.
In 25 ir 50 years time the people will remember more Contador or Froome than Cancellara or Boonen.

I disagree. I remember the likes of De Vlaeminck or Kelly more than Anquetil or even Gimondi, and Gimondi won his fair share of classics (Kelly is below Gimondi but De Vlaeminck is above imo). Indurain too.

But is De Vlaeminck above Kelly? I wouldn't be so sure...

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

When people say GT riders are the most known the ones who win the Tour, those who just won the Vuelta are less well known than multiple monument winners

You mean Valverde, Ullrich, Rominger, Heras and Fuente are less known than Devolder, Cunego, Gerrans, Van Hooydonck and Duclos-Lassalle?

Valverde has had more success in the classics than in GTs.

Nobody really remembers Heras or Fuente (besides me, I watched all the old Giro footage I could find). Rominger won Lombardia twice and was on the podium in LBL.

Absolutely no one remembers Aitor Gonzales, Angel Luis Casero, Ivan Gotti, Oscar Pereiro or Juan José Cobo.

 

[the asian]

Re: Re:

So the conclusion is that most of you had been classics riders. But the truth is that the GTs riders/winners are the most known. Usually when It speaks about the greatest in the sport are almost always GT champions.
If you ask me, Id chose to be Indurain or Contador instead of Museuw, Bartoli, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert, etc.
In 25 ir 50 years time the people will remember more Contador or Froome than Cancellara or Boonen.

I disagree. I remember the likes of De Vlaeminck or Kelly more than Anquetil or even Gimondi, and Gimondi won his fair share of classics (Kelly is below Gimondi but De Vlaeminck is above imo). Indurain too.

But is De Vlaeminck above Kelly? I wouldn't be so sure...

Obviously. Only a Brit or Irishman might think otherwise.

 

[Fernandez]

Look at Gilbert this year, hes won RvV. How much time since his last monument? For a GT rider is more difficult to disconnect that way and go back to win a GT

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

When people say GT riders are the most known the ones who win the Tour, those who just won the Vuelta are less well known than multiple monument winners

You mean Valverde, Ullrich, Rominger, Heras and Fuente are less known than Devolder, Cunego, Gerrans, Van Hooydonck and Duclos-Lassalle?

Valverde has had more success in the classics than in GTs.

Nobody really remembers Heras or Fuente (besides me, I watched all the old Giro footage I could find). Rominger won Lombardia twice and was on the podium in LBL.

I remember them too But I don't remember those clasicomanos above (except Cunego)!

 

[SKSemtex]

With the current routes of the races - Is it fair to say that in order to win all five monuments over the course of a riders career, the rider has to alter its physique/skills according to a certain pattern in order to maximize the chances of winning each race = have a certain number of tries at each race with an acceptable physical characteristic = beeing on par with the best contenders, beeing rated close to -or- 1, in a normalized skill-set comparison of the current contending field, on several of those occations for a given targeted race?

An example:

Early stage of career: Break through at age 20 as a medium/light weight puncheur, suitable for shorter climbs. Thinking the lieks of early Kwiatkowski or Alaphilippe currently. Win either Leige / Lombardia before age 27-28.

Mid stage career: Increase weight/power slightly. Increase in endurance/throughput in the endgame. Win Milan-San Remo and the other puncheur/climber monument that is lacking. Ride roubaix for experience only.

Late stage career: Bulk up even more. Shift focus towards ronde and roubaix. Target ronde first as it is the more natural transition from the hilly classics. Ride Roubaix to get the experience.

End of career: Bulk up and focus everything on Roubaix. Collect the last monument win.

Sidenotes: The other transition I.e. Break through as a cobbled rider winning roubaix/ronde, and then shifting towards climbing in late stage of the career.. Are there any examples of a skill-set transition throughout a riders career in this direction in the current/past field?

Or put Sagan on QS team for 3 years and to Sky for the rest of his career

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Look at Gilbert this year, hes won RvV. How much time since his last monument? For a GT rider is more difficult to disconnect that way and go back to win a GT

Basso

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

So the conclusion is that most of you had been classics riders. But the truth is that the GTs riders/winners are the most known. Usually when It speaks about the greatest in the sport are almost always GT champions.
If you ask me, Id chose to be Indurain or Contador instead of Museuw, Bartoli, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert, etc.
In 25 ir 50 years time the people will remember more Contador or Froome than Cancellara or Boonen.

I disagree. I remember the likes of De Vlaeminck or Kelly more than Anquetil or even Gimondi, and Gimondi won his fair share of classics (Kelly is below Gimondi but De Vlaeminck is above imo). Indurain too.

But is De Vlaeminck above Kelly? I wouldn't be so sure...

Obviously. Only a Brit or Irishman might think otherwise.

I'm neither, but I still think Kelly was slightly better

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

When people say GT riders are the most known the ones who win the Tour, those who just won the Vuelta are less well known than multiple monument winners

You mean Valverde, Ullrich, Rominger, Heras and Fuente are less known than Devolder, Cunego, Gerrans, Van Hooydonck and Duclos-Lassalle?

Valverde has had more success in the classics than in GTs.

Nobody really remembers Heras or Fuente (besides me, I watched all the old Giro footage I could find). Rominger won Lombardia twice and was on the podium in LBL.

And what about Bahamontes, he never care about classics. And without a doubt hes a legend of the sport

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

So the conclusion is that most of you had been classics riders. But the truth is that the GTs riders/winners are the most known. Usually when It speaks about the greatest in the sport are almost always GT champions.
If you ask me, Id chose to be Indurain or Contador instead of Museuw, Bartoli, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert, etc.
In 25 ir 50 years time the people will remember more Contador or Froome than Cancellara or Boonen.

I disagree. I remember the likes of De Vlaeminck or Kelly more than Anquetil or even Gimondi, and Gimondi won his fair share of classics (Kelly is below Gimondi but De Vlaeminck is above imo). Indurain too.

But is De Vlaeminck above Kelly? I wouldn't be so sure...

Small gaps between legends, mind, but I'd say so yes.

Edit: I can definitely see why you'd think otherwise, as Kelly was the more varied and better all round rider, but De Vlaeminck in my mind is slightly above him for the Paris-Roubaix exploits and just how incredible he was in one day races.

 

[ciranda]

With the current routes of the races - Is it fair to say that in order to win all five monuments over the course of a riders career, the rider has to alter its physique/skills according to a certain pattern in order to maximize the chances of winning each race = have a certain number of tries at each race with an acceptable physical characteristic = beeing on par with the best contenders, beeing rated close to -or- 1, in a normalized skill-set comparison of the current contending field, on several of those occations for a given targeted race?

An example:

Early stage of career: Break through at age 20 as a medium/light weight puncheur, suitable for shorter climbs. Thinking the lieks of early Kwiatkowski or Alaphilippe currently. Win either Leige / Lombardia before age 27-28.

Mid stage career: Increase weight/power slightly. Increase in endurance/throughput in the endgame. Win Milan-San Remo and the other puncheur/climber monument that is lacking. Ride roubaix for experience only.

Late stage career: Bulk up even more. Shift focus towards ronde and roubaix. Target ronde first as it is the more natural transition from the hilly classics. Ride Roubaix to get the experience.

End of career: Bulk up and focus everything on Roubaix. Collect the last monument win.

Sidenotes: The other transition I.e. Break through as a cobbled rider winning roubaix/ronde, and then shifting towards climbing in late stage of the career.. Are there any examples of a skill-set transition throughout a riders career in this direction in the current/past field?

This transition pattern fits Gilberts career trajectory -Should he have won Milano-Sanremo in 2010 or more likely in 2011 as has been mentioned in this thread previously- abit. Also taken into account that The lombardia route was significantly more punchy and less climby at the time of his two wins, of course.

Geraint Thomas could go through those stages in a couple of months.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

It's all about perspective. Ask a random sports fan in Germany who the greatest cyclist of Germany was. 99% will answer Jan Ullrich, because Tour de France beats everything here. André Greipel was ranked higher in the vote for sports man of the year for winning four TdF stages, then Degenkolb, who had won two monuments the same year.

Ask the question to a cycling fan, they answer would be Zabel, Altig or maybe Ludwig, when they are from the eastern part.

 

[loge1884]

Re: Re:

Froome will never have in England status similar to Boonen in Belgium nor Sagan in Slovakia.

I would think Slovakia isn't that rich of Top-Level sports greats (apart of ice hockey, but it's now 15 years since they were World Champions ...), so no wonder Peter is highly recognized there .... prior to Peter I am certain all the average Slovakian had ever heard about cycling was "Tour de France" ...

 

[Alexandre B.]

I think you are misguided in the debate Monuments vs. Grands Tours (well, mostly Tour de France).

What is important is how you do it. You are remembered not only because you win big races, but also because you win them with class.

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

Look at Gilbert this year, hes won RvV. How much time since his last monument? For a GT rider is more difficult to disconnect that way and go back to win a GT

Basso

Four years for Basso and six for Gilbert. If Valverde could win this years Vuelta It would be 8 years!! That would be a true feat in my opinion

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

Look at Gilbert this year, hes won RvV. How much time since his last monument? For a GT rider is more difficult to disconnect that way and go back to win a GT

Basso

Four years for Basso and six for Gilbert. If Valverde could win this years Vuelta It would be 8 years!! That would be a true feat in my opinion

Contador 2007 - 2015

 

[ciranda]

Re: Re:

Froome will never have in England status similar to Boonen in Belgium nor Sagan in Slovakia.

I would think Slovakia isn't that rich of Top-Level sports greats (apart of ice hockey, but it's now 15 years since they were World Champions ...), so no wonder Peter is highly recognized there .... prior to Peter I am certain all the average Slovakian had ever heard about cycling was "Tour de France" ...

No one in Great Britain had heard about cycling before SKY. The country was a complete wasteland for cycling in the first hundred+ years of the sport.

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

Look at Gilbert this year, hes won RvV. How much time since his last monument? For a GT rider is more difficult to disconnect that way and go back to win a GT

Basso

Four years for Basso and six for Gilbert. If Valverde could win this years Vuelta It would be 8 years!! That would be a true feat in my opinion

Contador 2007 - 2015

No, I was refering a time split without winning a GT

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

So the conclusion is that most of you had been classics riders. But the truth is that the GTs riders/winners are the most known. Usually when It speaks about the greatest in the sport are almost always GT champions.
If you ask me, Id chose to be Indurain or Contador instead of Museuw, Bartoli, Boonen, Cancellara, Gilbert, etc.
In 25 ir 50 years time the people will remember more Contador or Froome than Cancellara or Boonen.

I disagree. I remember the likes of De Vlaeminck or Kelly more than Anquetil or even Gimondi, and Gimondi won his fair share of classics (Kelly is below Gimondi but De Vlaeminck is above imo). Indurain too.

But is De Vlaeminck above Kelly? I wouldn't be so sure...

Small gaps between legends, mind, but I'd say so yes.

Edit: I can definitely see why you'd think otherwise, as Kelly was the more varied and better all round rider, but De Vlaeminck in my mind is slightly above him for the Paris-Roubaix exploits and just how incredible he was in one day races.

I agree De Vlaeminck was a better one-day rider, although Kelly was also damn good.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

Froome will never have in England status similar to Boonen in Belgium nor Sagan in Slovakia.

I would think Slovakia isn't that rich of Top-Level sports greats (apart of ice hockey, but it's now 15 years since they were World Champions ...), so no wonder Peter is highly recognized there .... prior to Peter I am certain all the average Slovakian had ever heard about cycling was "Tour de France" ...

And? He is almost GOD here. He changed the whole country. 6 years ago you could not find one road bicycle on the roads. Now all roads and woods are full of cyclists. Young, old, men, women, kids. People are planning their holidays to see the monuments TDF.
I am sure that RVV and RP were watched by more people than the final of Champions league.