Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

[Boes]

WVA is just really hard to beat in though races that are semi classic distances such as E3, G-W & Amstel.
He seems to lose a bit of his punch if races go to 250 or more like RVV, PR or MSR (or WC for that matter).

An MVP in 100% form seems to get stronger as the race gets longer.

 

[Blanco]

WVA is just really hard to beat in though races that are semi classic distances such as E3, G-W & Amstel.
He seems to lose a bit of his punch if races go to 250 or more like RVV, PR or MSR (or WC for that matter).

An MVP in 100% form seems to get stronger as the race gets longer.

Both GW and Amstel are 250 km long..

 

[Barkintheeye]

If you're adding E3, than maybe San Sebastian has a place too.
Also Olympic RR must be included.
If you're counting races from 2000, Zuri-Metzgete and Paris-Tours were a big deal in the first decade of this century.
And so on... It's complicated, it's not maths.

Anyway, if we should rank classics riders of the current century, for me Boonen and Bettini have the edge. Than Gilbert, Cancellara, Valverde...
Of the active riders, Sagan is no.1, than Alaphilippe and Van Der Poel.

More additions

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Full of praise for MVDP after Sanremo, of course. This was one of his golden days, like Strade 2021, when no one in the world could beat him.

The flat run-in to Sanremo, where he maintained his lead, however, made me even some kind of sad, again:

The biggest waste of talent I have seen in watching 26 years of pro road cycling is the fact that MVDP practices almost no time trial training. As we already saw in the TdF, he is so good in time trialing - and I‘m sure he could even improve much more if he‘d focus more on the TT.

He then could be the 2nd best time trialist in the world - at the moment, Wout probably is 2nd best, Ganna best, Roglic/Remco/Küng 3rd best.

 

[Nick2413]

Full of praise for MVDP after Sanremo, of course. This was one of his golden days, like Strade 2021, when no one in the world could beat him.

The flat run-in to Sanremo, where he maintained his lead, however, made me even some kind of sad, again:

The biggest waste of talent I have seen in watching 26 years of pro road cycling is the fact that MVDP practices almost no time trial training. As we already saw in the TdF, he is so good in time trialing - and I‘m sure he could even improve much more if he‘d focus more on the TT.

He then could be the 2nd best time trialist in the world - at the moment, Wout probably is 2nd best, Ganna best, Roglic/Remco/Küng 3rd best.

That’s a few pretty extreme claims to unpack here.

 

[Blanco]

Full of praise for MVDP after Sanremo, of course. This was one of his golden days, like Strade 2021, when no one in the world could beat him.

The flat run-in to Sanremo, where he maintained his lead, however, made me even some kind of sad, again:

The biggest waste of talent I have seen in watching 26 years of pro road cycling is the fact that MVDP practices almost no time trial training. As we already saw in the TdF, he is so good in time trialing - and I‘m sure he could even improve much more if he‘d focus more on the TT.

He then could be the 2nd best time trialist in the world - at the moment, Wout probably is 2nd best, Ganna best, Roglic/Remco/Küng 3rd best.

Going solo after a 6-7 hour race is not the same as TT-ing for 30-40 minutes. Just look at how Sagan easily hold off Canncellara at De Ronde 2016.
I agree that he could improve a lot, but saying he would be better than all those guys is a little too much maybe...
And I'm a fan.

 

[jono]

Going solo after a 6-7 hour race is not the same as TT-ing for 30-40 minutes. Just look at how Sagan easily hold off Canncellara at De Ronde 2016.
I agree that he could improve a lot, but saying he would be better than all those guys is a little too much maybe...
And I'm a fan.

I don't think MVDP is likely to become a champion TTer. The available evidence suggests he is rather talented at short to medium TT efforts for someone who shows no particular affection for or interest in the discipline, but that is not the same as saying he should line up in the TT at worlds going for the gold.

5, 2, 3, 5, and 14 are his most recent ITT results (Giro, Tour, and Tirreno).

 

[senna6541]

Full of praise for MVDP after Sanremo, of course. This was one of his golden days, like Strade 2021, when no one in the world could beat him.

The flat run-in to Sanremo, where he maintained his lead, however, made me even some kind of sad, again:

The biggest waste of talent I have seen in watching 26 years of pro road cycling is the fact that MVDP practices almost no time trial training. As we already saw in the TdF, he is so good in time trialing - and I‘m sure he could even improve much more if he‘d focus more on the TT.
I imagine the only thing more boring than watching a TT is actually preparing for one. So guessing MVDP has zero interest in that. Why TT when you can race MTB's, CX and win road races at the highest level when you are actually competing against other people.
He then could be the 2nd best time trialist in the world - at the moment, Wout probably is 2nd best, Ganna best, Roglic/Remco/Küng 3rd best.

 

[Ripper]

That’s a few pretty extreme claims to unpack here.

Indeed. As others have already noted, van der Poel's capacities are not really inclined towards 30+ minute sustained efforts. He can rip out some very good time trials if the courses are shorter and include places for sharp accelerations (short hills, corners). And of course end of race efforts.

 

[Ripper]

Full of praise for MVDP after Sanremo, of course. This was one of his golden days, like Strade 2021, when no one in the world could beat him.

The flat run-in to Sanremo, where he maintained his lead, however, made me even some kind of sad, again:

The biggest waste of talent I have seen in watching 26 years of pro road cycling is the fact that MVDP practices almost no time trial training. As we already saw in the TdF, he is so good in time trialing - and I‘m sure he could even improve much more if he‘d focus more on the TT.

He then could be the 2nd best time trialist in the world - at the moment, Wout probably is 2nd best, Ganna best, Roglic/Remco/Küng 3rd best.

His race was awesome. If he were to become that good of a pure time trialist, the discussion could not get within breathing distance of this sub forum

 

[Nick2413]

Indeed. As others have already noted, van der Poel's capacities are not really inclined towards 30+ minute sustained efforts. He can rip out some very good time trials if the courses are shorter and include places for sharp accelerations (short hills, corners). And of course end of race efforts.

Part of it is that only a handful of riders are going hard in a TdF TT. And I think his body is too broad to be as aero as the specialists.

I wish we had a better way of quantifying why end of race efforts are so different though. A 10-30 minute effort in a highly fatigued state is basically the exaggerated definition of a time trial. There’s a unique intersection of time trialists and puncher types in single day races..

 

[Red Rick]

Part of it is that only a handful of riders are going hard in a TdF TT. And I think his body is too broad to be as aero as the specialists.

I wish we had a better way of quantifying why end of race efforts are so different though. A 10-30 minute effort in a highly fatigued state is basically the exaggerated definition of a time trial. There’s a unique intersection of time trialists and puncher types in single day races..

I don't think MvdP is too broad, I just think his TT position is just too upright. He's basically a wind shield. The fact that he even has some good TT results is a minor miracle.

And fresh vs fatigued efforts are a very different, and and fatigue resistance is a hugely important skill altogether.

For good fresh efforts you just basically need elite oxygen uptake, carbohydrate oxidation, and good lactate/anaerobic capicty and you're good to go. For fatigued efforts you really need those slightly lower intensity zones and fat metabolism to be really great.

 

[Nick2413]

I don't think MvdP is too broad, I just think his TT position is just too upright. He's basically a wind shield. The fact that he even has some good TT results is a minor miracle.

And fresh vs fatigued efforts are a very different, and and fatigue resistance is a hugely important skill altogether.

For good fresh efforts you just basically need elite oxygen uptake, carbohydrate oxidation, and good lactate/anaerobic capicty and you're good to go. For fatigued efforts you really need those slightly lower intensity zones and fat metabolism to be really great.

It would be counterintuitive physiologically for a guy like MVDP to have the best low intensity zones and fat metabolism in the peloton when explosivity and 30-90 second efforts are his biggest strength. I think it has to do with other factors. In any other sport an athlete that specializes in 20-40 min efforts would be better at the end of a long hard race than one who is known for explosivity. It would be like a 10k runner losing to a 1500m runner in a marathon. But maybe cycling is just completely different because of the need for explosive efforts frequently throughout races and it plays out more like a 1500m race.

 

[Red Rick]

It would be counterintuitive physiologically for a guy like MVDP to have the best low intensity zones and fat metabolism in the peloton when explosivity and 30-90 second efforts are his biggest strength. I think it has to do with other factors. In any other sport an athlete that specializes in 20-40 min efforts would be better at the end of a long hard race than one who is known for explosivity. It would be like a 10k runner losing to a 1500m runner in a marathon. But maybe cycling is just completely different because of the need for explosive efforts frequently throughout races and it plays out more like a 1500m race.

Running doesn't have drafting effects to the extent that cycling has.

Also I think you're way overattributing MvdPs superior results in monuments to better endurance. De Ronde is heavily focused on the 1-2 minute super explosive climbs and recovery from these efforts, and Sanremo isn't simply that hard that it's a super hard endurance race. The most endurance heavy race so far in the season is Strade Bianche, and MvdP got shitwrecked.

 

[Nick2413]

Running doesn't have drafting effects to the extent that cycling has.

Also I think you're way overattributing MvdPs superior results in monuments to better endurance. De Ronde is heavily focused on the 1-2 minute and super explosive climbs and recovery from these efforts, and Sanremo isn't simply that hard that it's a super hard endurance race. The most endurance heavy race so far in the season is Strade Bianche, and MvdP got shitwrecked.

He won it in the past and a race like PR is very endurance heavy and he’s always a top 3 favorite. I just find it interesting there’s so much overlap in types of talent even within the same race.

 

[Gwbert]

Running doesn't have drafting effects to the extent that cycling has.

Also I think you're way overattributing MvdPs superior results in monuments to better endurance. De Ronde is heavily focused on the 1-2 minute super explosive climbs and recovery from these efforts, and Sanremo isn't simply that hard that it's a super hard endurance race. The most endurance heavy race so far in the season is Strade Bianche, and MvdP got shitwrecked.

On the Geraint Thomas podcast Luke Rowe explained that his effort in MSR was less than the race the next day which was >100km less. MSR, just isn’t a super endurance test.

 

[senna6541]

MVDP obviously has no interest in the TT, and why should he? With all the disciplines he is already juggling (that he actually enjoys), why in the hell would he want to add yet another that requires stuff that clearly doesn't match his temperament. What TT would he even have interest in winning or doing well in? He's not a GC guy, so he doesn't have to worry about that. Right now he can't even do his favorite discipline let alone go through all the boring sh_t he would need to do to perfect his "position", etc. MVDP's idea of a fun TT is the final stage of BB in '20 or that stage in TA in '21. Or his 200 or so CX wins when he's pulverized everyone.

 

[Gratemans]

^This guy gets it

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

^This guy gets it

Senna is usually a very level headed poster.

 

[jono]

What TT would he even have interest in winning or doing well in? He's not a GC guy, so he doesn't have to worry about that.

He is not a GC guy, but I do believe that he views (or has viewed) getting into the yellow or pink jersey as a priority. Maybe now that he has worn both that is no longer the case, but even if it is, his present level in prologue/short TTs has been good enough to be competitive in GC before the climbing stages come around.

 

[search]

MvdP didn't do the E3 recon yesterday, and asked about his own plans for GW in the interview after de Panne Philipsen said "Het hangt een beetje af van de E3 vrijdag of Mathieu start. We zullen zien. Gent-Wevelgem is ook voor Mathieu een mooie wedstrijd." Sounds like Mathieu isn't sure to start tomorrow?

 

[Didinho]

MvdP didn't do the E3 recon yesterday, and asked about his own plans for GW in the interview after de Panne Philipsen said "Het hangt een beetje af van de E3 vrijdag of Mathieu start. We zullen zien. Gent-Wevelgem is ook voor Mathieu een mooie wedstrijd." Sounds like Mathieu isn't sure to start tomorrow?

I think he meant to decide after E3 if he's also starting in Wevelgem. E3 was always the plan.

 

[search]

I think he meant to decide after E3 if he's also starting in Wevelgem. E3 was always the plan.

ah, thanks, the automatic translation of that quote was a bit misleading. Makes more sense this way around.

 

[Boes]

If I'm not mistaking MVP wasn't meant to do Gent Wevelgem.
But appearently he still might?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Running doesn't have drafting effects to the extent that cycling has.

Also I think you're way overattributing MvdPs superior results in monuments to better endurance. De Ronde is heavily focused on the 1-2 minute super explosive climbs and recovery from these efforts, and Sanremo isn't simply that hard that it's a super hard endurance race. The most endurance heavy race so far in the season is Strade Bianche, and MvdP got shitwrecked.

but SB was his first road race day. We know he can handle it in top form.