The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[Cobblestones]

Disclaimer, I haven't seen the stage yet, only read the ticker and a few comments here (yes some days I have to go to work)

What I wanted to comment about is the 'unwritten rules' many have talked about. It's not true. Yes, Armstrong waited when Ullrich overcooked a corner in the descent, and Ullrich waited when Armstrong was brought down by a spectator. But really, there's not much consistency in the history of cycling. When riders think it's good to attack in the feed zone they'll do it. Everybody will hate your guts, of course, so you factor that in your cost/benefit analysis.

Honestly, when Armstrong waited for Ullrich I thought it was stupid. Ullrich was known to be a bad descender, so he had to chose between losing time or taking risks. He gambled and lost. IMHO it would have been ok for Armstrong to capitalize. He waited and won, so at least it worked out for him.

The spectator bringing Armstrong down was different. Clearly not the responsibility of the rider. So waiting there was classy of Ullrich.

Stage 2 this year? Well, I think everybody was pretty much shaken up so I can understand the riders. However, IMHO, if they had ridden a bit more tempo and Schlecklet hadn't caught up, I don't think anyone had a reason to complain. Chutes like that happen and might cost contenders any chance of a win or a good result. You can't make a TdF totally fair. And they were all pussies not to contend the sprint.

Stage 3 this year. Well, cobbles. What can you say. Riders falling left right and center. Punctures, mechanicals. No one is going to wait for anything.

Today? As I said, I didn't see it. Have to wait until this evening for the VS rerun.

 

[flicker]

ok it is a bit controversial theme but let´s get it fair and square:

Stage 2: the peloton waits for Andy Schleck after his fall
Stage 3: Schleck in the group led by Cancellara takes huge advantage after the fall of his own brother, teammate and hot TdF favourite Frank, they pushed forward even though they knew Contador, Armstrong and other greats found themselves in the trouble after that unfortunate fall

so Andy should be the last one to criticize anyone´s sportsmanship....

the difference today is that this happened just 1,5 km from the summit and it was Andy who started the attack, Alberto just couldn´t know what was going on with Andy (who himself in addition under the stress made some mess from bike change...)... and don´t forget it was not only about AC, also Samu Sánchez and Menchov kept pushing...
I am sure that had it happened in the beggining of the climb they would have been informed by their teams and waited but this is racing and honestly this TdF edition is pretty boring in my opinion, very few attacks and any second counts...

my opinion is: Contador, Sánchez and Menchov made the right decision

Excuse me? They are not wearing radios? Between the 3 one of them had a DS screaming Andy in trouble ATTACK! If they were not 1.5km fans would have passed the message.

 

[Biological Entity]

BPC - you need to watch the video - Vino is almost on Schlecks wheel and Contador had already made up most of the distance on Vino.
It was a good effort by Andy but it was not going to dislodge AC.

He had been slowing down for a long time before he was passed by Contador. It takes long for AS to get up to full speed. If he put it in the big ring and managed to perform like he did when he gained about 20 seconds fight back, there would have been a gap by the top of the climb.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

While I still think AC should not have attcked - he cannot wait for Schleck forever.

It took Andy 21 seconds to put his chain on!!

Andy made a complete arse of getting his chain on. In the video he unclipped at 16s, but stood with one foot in trying to sort out his chain, he didn't get pushed off until 37 seconds.

Was he scared of getting his mitts dirty?

 

[nia O'Malley]

I still say the Andy is not matured enough to be a champion of tdf, there is more to winning majors than pure skill. temperament is key. A lot of whinning, mummy and big brother, and now crying because AC didn't wait to help moi. We ain't in 8th grade, grow up.

And typical of young lads with so much talent, I expect him to do something foolish tomorrow....

Well he DID get over it between our two posts, so all is fine with me. But yes, he is young, can't blame a 25 year old for being young

Really, Andy has only one issue, and that's talk first, think later. The fact is I think now digested, and we'll have a great stage tomorrow

 

[The Crusher]

I've looked at this like 30 times.

http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/1111

So at first I thought that was Alberto chasing Andy but it's actually Vino. So I'll make a number of observations here from watching this:

* At -0:44 in the frontal shot, Alberto is nowhere in sight, between the group and Vino.
* At -0:44 to -0:42 in the wide helicopter shot, just prior to the wheel hop, Vino gains only a few inches.
* After the wheel hop, Vino sits down, and slows down visibly (compared to the background, not compared to Andy). So Vino the animal thought it was inappropriate to continue the attack.
* Now around -0:37-36 we see Alberto pass Andy in the rear shot. This is where his attack really begins, after Andy had already been re-absorbed basically and Vino had eased up.
* Did Alberto know? By this time, Andy is barely moving and mostly staring at his own drivetrain. He gets off the bike about a second after Alberto passes him.

Also
* When the incident happens, you can see the idler is fairly well-extended, and then suddenly retracts.
* At -0:07, right when the incident occurs, it looks like Andy is trying to shift.
* Whatever happened causes the rear wheel to hop up.

I'll leave it to others to look at these bits and estimate exactly what the failure mode was.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Excellent post and analysis, Crusher. Good job.

This thread should have been a poll.

I think they should have waited, at least it would have been more classy. It's going to stink if AC wins the Tour because of this. But that's racing.

 

[El Pistolero]

You forgot Landis, Lemond, and Contador in your list - just helping keep it more complete.

Landis got his victory taken away and there's no decent proof against Lemond and Contador. If Contador tests positive 6 times for EPO like Lance did then you'd have a point.

 

[flicker]

Disclaimer, I haven't seen the stage yet, only read the ticker and a few comments here (yes some days I have to go to work)

What I wanted to comment about is the 'unwritten rules' many have talked about. It's not true. Yes, Armstrong waited when Ullrich overcooked a corner in the descent, and Ullrich waited when Armstrong was brought down by a spectator. But really, there's not much consistency in the history of cycling. When riders thought it's good to attack in the feed zone they'll do it. Everybody will hate your guts, of course, so you factor that in your cost/benefit analysis.

Honestly, when Armstrong waited for Ullrich I thought it was stupid. Ullrich was known to be a bad descender, so he had to chose between losing time or taking risks. He gambled and lost. IMHO it would have been ok for Armstrong to capitalize. He waited and won, so at least it worked out for him.

The spectator bringing Armstrong down was different. Clearly not the responsibility of the rider. So waiting there was classy of Ullrich.

Stage 2 this year? Well, I think everybody was pretty much shaken so I can understand the riders. However, IMHO, if they had ridden a bit more tempo and Schlecklet hadn't caught up, I don't think anyone had a reason to complain. Chutes like that happen and might cost contenders any chance of a win or a good result. You can't make a TdF totally fair. And they were all pussies not to contend the sprint.

Stage 3 this year. Well, cobbles. What can you say. Riders falling left right and center. Punctures, mechanicals. No one is going to wait for anything.

Today? As I said, I didn't see it. Have to wait until this evening for the VS rerun.

3 words of wisdom to you Mr. Cobble, Lance and Ulrich are done.

 

[Big GMaC]

You forgot Landis, Lemond, and Contador in your list - just helping keep it more complete.

I see what you did there. Nice try slipping that in you $hit.

Anyway,

his DS say it was AS fault for changing gear

/THREAD

 

[131313]

Lance totally would have waited.

Oh.......wait.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T66LLvqgZS4

 

[michaeld]

Contador is the new Cannibal. The weak die.

Discuss.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Did LA have rivals in 99. Wasnt he just a domestigue at that point?

Are you serious? This has to be the dumbest question I have seen on these boards. A domestique for whom?

 

[Anonymous]

Bjarne Riis says it's Andy's fault and nobody elses:
Danish Extrabladet:
http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/article1379238.ece
Translated:
http://translate.google.com/transla.../sport/cykling/article1379238.ece&sl=da&tl=en

Wow, Riis must be pi$$ed that Andy and Frank are leaving next year...

 

[nia O'Malley]

Citation please.

http://www.diariodeibiza.es/deportes/2010/07/19/contador-sabia-averia/422066.html

Contador reconoció que en la bajada ha preferido que se la jugara Samuel Sánchez. "Samu iba muy bien y preferí que tirase él en algunas curvas", precisó.

 

[AtletiSK]

Excuse me? They are not wearing radios? Between the 3 one of them had a DS screaming Andy in trouble ATTACK! If they were not 1.5km fans would have passed the message.

ok, let´s say AC knew there was some trouble with Andy, but when Samuel and Denis kept pushing he couldn´t have stopped because he would have lost maybe one minute on them in the finish... and take a look at the stage again, AC turned back many times after the incident to look if Andy continues and he saw him some 20 seconds behind with other favourites... did AC know it was a mechanical problem? hard to say but I keep saying: he had no other choice

 

[irritated_cycling_fan]

Selective Memories

I keep seeing all these posts saying that AS would be way behind if Cancellara hadn't waited on stage 2. Most likely that's true. What you choose to forget is that AC went down that day as well and would also be 'way behind' had Cancellara not waited. 90% of the peloton was caught up in the stage 2 disaster and had the very few who got through not waited it's doubtful that either AS or AC (or LA or CVV or BW or IB etc. etc.) would be in contention for the overall. If they had attacked as AC, DM & SS did on this stage, it would be almost guaranteed that none of the pre-race GC contenders would win this year's Tour.

Cancellara, AND the rest of the Peloton, as they managed to catch up to the slowed front group, chose not to race hard for the rest of that stage. For the most part, anyone who managed to make it through that stage without a major injury was able to catch back on. That doesn't just include both Schlecks.

Now for any of you whining about how no one waited for anyone on the cobbles as justification for what happened today; all you're doing is showing how little you understand professional racing at this level. Let me spell it out for you. Cobbles are recognized by the entire peloton as a places where you get through as best as you can. The cobbles will always take riders down. The cobbles will always take out tires. When you race on cobbles it's a crap shoot for everyone and no matter how good a rider you are 90% of that ride is pure luck. It's a completely different attitude. Think of cobbles in much the same way as final sprints. The sprints are dangerous for everyone and it's almost a given that one or more will go down. No one expects any sprinter to stop or wait even if they went down because of another rider. Unfair racing will receive penalties, fines or even exclusions after the race is finished but not one single sprinter is ever going to expect the sprints to stop. When riding cobbles it's the same mindset.

None of us truly know what caused AS's chain problem. Speculate all you want but none of the pictures were close enough to see exactly what happened especially since all those pictures are from the wrong side of the bike. AC was behind AS when he lost his chain. He may not have known exactly what happened but it was certainly clear that AS didn't purposefully just stop racing. All of those guys have enough experience on their bikes to know what a mechanical problem looks like. AC, DM and SS all made the intentional decision to use that mechanical problem to put as much time into Schleck as they could. Had any one of them had the class to tell the others to not attack I think everyone would have given him the chance to catch back up - sad to say none of them did.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Well, looks like BroDeal actually was correct about Schleck's bad decision to shift gears at an inopportune time.

When Schleck's own DS blames him that says quite a lot.

I would have preferred to have seen Contador wait, but perhaps I was too harsh on the guy.

 

[El Pistolero]

Well I don't know if Riis is right, but I've noticed Andy does have the habit of changing gears on climbs a lot. Before this I thought it was impressive he could ride a climb on whatever gear he's on, now I think it's foolish >_>

 

[Oldman]

I see what you did there. Nice try slipping that in you $hit.

Anyway,

his DS say it was AS fault for changing gear

/THREAD

Pretty much sums up the situation.

 

[max_powers]

While I still think AC should not have attcked - he cannot wait for Schleck forever.

It took Andy 21 seconds to put his chain on!!

Andy made a complete arse of getting his chain on. In the video he unclipped at 16s, but stood with one foot in trying to sort out his chain, he didn't get pushed off until 37 seconds.

Was he scared of getting his mitts dirty?

yes, AS lost time when he had the chain back on, but kicked it off again when he did not turn the pedals around to keep it on.

AS at fault also if he felt he had a front shift issue before his attack. on replay notice he tries to downshift the front after initial jam, which implies he attacked in big ring

 

[Publicus]

If this is what Andy thought happened well then I understand why he would be ****ed:

I was feeling strong and determined throughout the stage and the team really everything to put me in the perfect position for the final climb," said Schleck after the finish. "When I launched my second attack, the chain got stuck and I had to get off the bike to put it back on. Then they attacked.

"I probably wouldn't have done it like that," he said before adding, "I'm just really looking forward to getting another chance of attacking - the jersey deserves honour."

That's not what happened.

 

[theovaf]

I think AC's fault is that he did pull to the summit (see TFF youtube post at 1.45).
Nobody wanted Samu or Vino to get any gap before the summit, nor preffered to descent on their own (that is why AC wanted Samu to join).
BUT once the trio crested the summit 2gether, and once they knew AS was chasing after the mechanical failure/mistake (here's the real debate imo) they should have let him close the gap

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So no one follows the unwritten rules? Cause doping ain't respecting the 100+ year tradition of the Tour de France now is it?

I'm talking about the likes of Merckx, Riss, Armstrong, Ullrich, Pantani, etc here. All dopers, although Merckx didn't use the good stuff like the others did.

You forgot Landis, Lemond, and Contador in your list - just helping keep it more complete.

C'mon you 2, you know better take it to the Clinic if you want to continue that chat.

 

[131313]

Are you serious? This has to be the dumbest question I have seen on these boards. A domestique for whom?

The guy in the yellow jersey was a domestique, of course. I think they were really riding for Andreau.

Don't you know anything about bike racing??