The Official LANCE ARMSTRONG Thread 2010-2011

[red_flanders]

You know, some think that this forum is anti-armstrong, but I'm just imagining what would have happened if you'd said the same thing about Virenque instead of Armstrong about eight years ago (yes, there were cycling forums back then).

This whole idea of 'haters' is a relatively recent meme. There was never something wrong with people bagging continually about Pantani, Virenque or Ullrich back then. Them being douchebags was accepted as a law of nature. But now it's Armstrong's turn, and suddenly the backlash is considered a cosmic injustice to a man who has been deceiving us more than any other rider mentioned in this post.

Well said.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

With regards there not being anything to compare to Alpine climbing in the US, of course there are long climbs, and steep climbs, in the USA. It's a huge country with enormously varied topography.

On the other hand, however, it is also a country which is relatively young, and enormously spacious. This has led to a different approach in transport. Many of the Alpine, Pyrenean and Apennine passes are centuries old. They are often narrow, tricky and change gradients radically. Newer passes (take for example the Transfăgărăsăn highway in Romania for a European version, or watch the Portuguese racing up to the Alto da Torre) often have wider and/or straighter roads, which changes the way riders can and/or will race on them, in the same way as the rough, barely-used cobbles of northern France create slightly different racing from the better-kept but steeper cobbles of the Ronde van Vlaanderen. Quite often the mountains can be bypassed entirely in countries with enormous space as one of their benefits, whereas in a country like Italy there was little choice at the time of building but to build pass upon pass. The only place outside of France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Spain and perhaps southern Germany that has even close to the right combination of ancient and traditional mountain pass routes, road, the right altitude and weather conditions that it could possibly serve as adequate preparation for the climbs of the Tour, would be Japan.

 

[kurtinsc]

I'll throw the Death Ride in the mix too:

That being said, I think these are the exception rather than the norm. While I've never ridden in Europe, I have ridden in the Sierras and Rockies. I didn't find the Rockies to be overly difficult. Long, yes, high, yes, but not terribly steep. Although I might have ridden the wrong passes.

He does need to get his *** back to Europe to train in the Alps and Pyrennes. Especially if there are some climbs he doesn't know better than the back of his hands. I can't remember which book it was, I'd guess Every Second Counts or Lance Armstrong's War, but I remember there was a time when he did a climb twice in a day when he was scheduled to do it once (I believe it was the Tourmelet) because "he didn't have a feel for it." Thus his approach is a significant departure from his Tour winning approach.

Even with those he has climbed several times before, he needs to ride them again. You're body is going to react differently going up the Tormelet at 38 than it did at 28 or 34.

I don't disagree with that. It would be a good idea to ride the roads he's actually going to compete on.

My only point was the idea that there are no roads for a bike rider to train on in the US to get the same general "feel" of the high european mountains is false.

We're only showing actual race profiles here too... I'm sure there are a ton of different routes a rider could train on in the Rockies and Appalachian mountains that would give him good general mountain prep that are pretty similar to what he could find in Europe. They have nowhere near the mythic quality that ascents like Ventoux or the Alpe d'Huez have... but that's more a factor of the history of cycling and the fact that the Tour de France is... in France. We do have roads that go up steep mountains and mountains that are close together with no flat in between.

 

[thehog]

I don't disagree with that. It would be a good idea to ride the roads he's actually going to compete on.

My only point was the idea that there are no roads for a bike rider to train on in the US to get the same general "feel" of the high european mountains is false.

We're only showing actual race profiles here too... I'm sure there are a ton of different routes a rider could train on in the Rockies and Appalachian mountains that would give him good general mountain prep that are pretty similar to what he could find in Europe. They have nowhere near the mythic quality that ascents like Ventoux or the Alpe d'Huez have... but that's more a factor of the history of cycling and the fact that the Tour de France is... in France. We do have roads that go up steep mountains and mountains that are close together with no flat in between.

I stand corrected. Just as well Lance is there training on those US mountains presented in the graphics and not in Texas. I'm sorry for my mistake.

Mate these are nothing like the Alps. Don't waste my time.

 

[thehog]

The death ride looks awesome actually. Is it open to the general public? When is it?

I'll throw the Death Ride in the mix too:


That being said, I think these are the exception rather than the norm. While I've never ridden in Europe, I have ridden in the Sierras and Rockies. I didn't find the Rockies to be overly difficult. Long, yes, high, yes, but not terribly steep. Although I might have ridden the wrong passes.

He does need to get his *** back to Europe to train in the Alps and Pyrennes. Especially if there are some climbs he doesn't know better than the back of his hands. I can't remember which book it was, I'd guess Every Second Counts or Lance Armstrong's War, but I remember there was a time when he did a climb twice in a day when he was scheduled to do it once (I believe it was the Tourmelet) because "he didn't have a feel for it." Thus his approach is a significant departure from his Tour winning approach.

Even with those he has climbed several times before, he needs to ride them again. You're body is going to react differently going up the Tormelet at 38 than it did at 28 or 34.

 

[Publicus]

I don't disagree with that. It would be a good idea to ride the roads he's actually going to compete on.

My only point was the idea that there are no roads for a bike rider to train on in the US to get the same general "feel" of the high european mountains is false.

We're only showing actual race profiles here too... I'm sure there are a ton of different routes a rider could train on in the Rockies and Appalachian mountains that would give him good general mountain prep that are pretty similar to what he could find in Europe. They have nowhere near the mythic quality that ascents like Ventoux or the Alpe d'Huez have... but that's more a factor of the history of cycling and the fact that the Tour de France is... in France. We do have roads that go up steep mountains and mountains that are close together with no flat in between.

I think the actual point is that while there are these routes in and around the US, you can't find them in Hawai'i or Texas--where Lance has primarily been training to date. I'm sure there is some decent climbing in Aspen, where he has relocated to just prior to the Gila, but that still is not a substitute for racing up a mountain pass (at least in my uninformed opinion). It's not like Jesus Hernandez is going to push AC in training like Anton, Mosquera and Soler pushed him last week at Castilla y Leon. Similarly, I just don't see College pushing him on their "training rides." Lance seems to be avoiding racing against real competition in the high mountains until July (obviously that could change in a blink of an eye or tweet of a twitter), which to my uninformed and inexperienced opinion seems odd in comparison to what all the other so-called TdF contenders are doing.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Mate these are nothing like the Alps. Don't waste my time.

Is Armstrong not training in the Alps this year? I thought he always trains the Tour route?

 

[BikeCentric]

Here it is Hog:

http://www.deathride.com/

It is a good ride - it's a ride, not a race, so yes it's open to the general public. It's held July 8 and registration usually sells out really early - it's full now.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

I will still cheer for Lance. He has courage to take on Andy Schleck and Alberto Contador. Chapeau Lance.

Dream on !!

 

[BikeCentric]

I think the actual point is that while there are these routes in and around the US, you can't find them in Hawai'i or Texas--where Lance has primarily been training to date. I'm sure there is some decent climbing in Aspen, where he has relocated to just prior to the Gila, but that still is not a substitute for racing up a mountain pass (at least in my uninformed opinion). It's not like Jesus Hernandez is going to push AC in training like Anton, Mosquera and Soler pushed him last week at Castilla y Leon. Similarly, I just don't see College pushing him on their "training rides." Lance seems to be avoiding racing against real competition in the high mountains until July (obviously that could change in a blink of an eye or tweet of a twitter), which to my uninformed and inexperienced opinion seems odd in comparison to what all the other so-called TdF contenders are doing.

I used to live in Colorado. The (road) climbing up by Aspen actually sucks because Colorado has no infrastructure so there are just very few paved roads up there that are not major highways.

That being said there are some awesome fire roads if you bust out the CX bike or mountain bike. But again this goes back to specificity and riding your 'cross bike on dirt fire rounds around Aspen is nothing like riding in the Alpes or Pyrenees.

 

[kurtinsc]

I think the actual point is that while there are these routes in and around the US, you can't find them in Hawai'i or Texas--where Lance has primarily been training to date. I'm sure there is some decent climbing in Aspen, where he has relocated to just prior to the Gila, but that still is not a substitute for racing up a mountain pass (at least in my uninformed opinion). It's not like Jesus Hernandez is going to push AC in training like Anton, Mosquera and Soler pushed him last week at Castilla y Leon. Similarly, I just don't see College pushing him on their "training rides." Lance seems to be avoiding racing against real competition in the high mountains until July (obviously that could change in a blink of an eye or tweet of a twitter), which to my uninformed and inexperienced opinion seems odd in comparison to what all the other so-called TdF contenders are doing.

This is true... but theHog seemed to indicate these sorts of rides weren't available anywhere in the US. Colorado and California are loaded with these rides.

Is Lance riding them? Probably not. Should he be training more in the mountains? Probably.

Do you have to go to Europe to get that kind of training? I don't think so. I could be misinformed, but I think that if you trained mostly in the Rockies, you'd be pretty well set up physically to handle the Alps or Pyranees. You wouldn't know the roads of course and you'd miss things tactically because of that, but I think you'd be on pretty even footing with someone training in Italy who's riding in France on those climbs for the first time.

I just thought it was a bit euro-centric to suggest that you can't find rides like that in the US... it's a large country you know. I wasn't suggesting Lance was training on the rides. My comments were on US geography... not Lance's training schedule.

 

[thehog]

From November 2008: and remember its now only March

Lance spent the end of November training in Nice, France. Nieuwsblad in Belgium has raised some of the same questions I did about Lance's trip to France. He twittered and twitpiced from Cote de Saint-Roch and Menton (update: PezCycling said this is the Col de la Madone area), but they said that he was also sighted on Col d'Eze. I can't find detailed maps of the individual stages of the 2009 Tour route, so I don't know if those two climbs are included or not. The publication did notice, like I did, that Lance was awfully close to Monaco, where the 15 Km Prologue will be held July 4th. They also wondered why he would ride in France in the rain, wind and snow instead of going straight to nice, warm Tenerife. Col de la Madone was a climb that Lance did many times and had piles of data he could use to compare his condition now to the days when he trained in Nice or used that climb to prepare for the Tour de France.

 

[Beech Mtn]

From November 2008: and remember is only March

Lance spent the end of November training in Nice, France. Nieuwsblad in Belgium has raised some of the same questions I did about Lance's trip to France. He twittered and twitpiced from Cote de Saint-Roch and Menton (update: PezCycling said this is the Col de la Madone area), but they said that he was also sighted on Col d'Eze. I can't find detailed maps of the individual stages of the 2009 Tour route, so I don't know if those two climbs are included or not. The publication did notice, like I did, that Lance was awfully close to Monaco, where the 15 Km Prologue will be held July 4th. They also wondered why he would ride in France in the rain, wind and snow instead of going straight to nice, warm Tenerife. Col de la Madone was a climb that Lance did many times and had piles of data he could use to compare his condition now to the days when he trained in Nice or used that climb to prepare for the Tour de France.

Um, Hog, it's only April. Kinda late April at that.

 

[WinterRider]

I genuinely can't think of another champion with as little class over the years. From Merckx to Hinault to Lemond, Fignon, Roche, Delgado, Indurain etc etc, not one has shown as much ignorance and arrogance as Lance - to the press, to his compatriots and to the fans of the sport. Lets leave out the doping for a moment and focus on just one specific example. Look at the way he tried to diminish Sastre's 08 win, basically saying that the race was of a poor standard ('it was a joke' apparently)- so he not alone gets Sastre, who never did anything to Lance and is a guy who has served his dues, with that comment, but the whole race. Classy. And CVDV did not escape either, "Christian's a nice guy, but finishing fifth in the Tour de France? Come on!" And the reality is that with the way Alberto is winning since Feb of this year, last year and the previous year, he is showing real class in how a champion rider should behave and carry himself. Unlike Lance who appeared out of nowhere each June. That's not a cyclist, that's a tour de France rider. There's more to cycling than July. I wouldn't even say Alberto is a favourite rider of mine, but he handled himself well last year, and did absolutely nothing wrong, in the face of intimidation from within his own team. That 'war of words' was started by Lance during Paris Nice of last year, perpetuated by Lance during the Tour, and carried on further in the Autumn in conjunction with JB. Alberto - in fairness to the guy defended himself by stating the issues he experienced with the wheels.
Classy work by Lance also to castigate a whole nation of people - saying that the French anti-doping movement was a 'witch-hunt'. Also stating that he feared for his safety. "It's a strange climb ... long but not very steep, so you can keep 30, 40, 50 guys, and they can take shots at you from the back.” What a load of absolute tripe. But he used the French to feed into this myth in America that the French are jealous. Funny how they had no issues with Lemond, Indurain, Riis, Ullrich and Pantani. "I'm thinking of returning, as it's the best way of pi**ing the French off."
Lance, during the soccer World Cup, said that the 'French players tested positive for being a**holes'. To the Lance fans this seems to be hilarious. Again, what exactly did the French soccer players do to Lance?
He has called David Walsh a 'f***ing little troll', 'I hate that guy', 'gutter journalism'. Le Monde is 'tabloid thrash' apparently. By the way, to Walsh's credit, he replied that he didn't hate or dislike Lance, and that he even understood why he doped. Said that Greg was drunk during the phone call, thus adding fuel to the fire that Greg had a drink problem - something which seems to have been started by the Lance PR machine.
And it's true what one poster above has said. The Lance fans just keep batting away every shred of evidence which could be construed as negative, with not one bit of logic. Doping - no conviction they say, witchhunt, jealousy, Greg is jealous, people trying ot make money off my name, Betsy has an axe to grind, samples were spiked ("There's a setup here and I'm stuck in the middle of it,”) he lost weight, changed cadence, Ferrari tested body fat, changed focus.
Scumbag - all top sportsmen are this way.
Scumbag - look at his upbringing and his father
Womaniser but pretending to be the loving husband - good for him to be able to get these women.
Bullying other riders - all champions behave this way.
Profiting from cancer awareness - entitled to make a living ("The riskiest thing you can do is get greedy." (See picture below) I think most people would agree that 2m dollars for less than a week is greedy (TDU), but the Lance fans seem to have a different moral compass.

And the final one, when all else fails - Why don't you save your energy from hating Lance so much and get off your fat a**es and ride. The intellectual equivalent of telling someone to look over there and to run off in the other direction.

Wow, after 3640 posts in this thread alone, plus all the other rants going back and forth I've read in these forums over the last three years of lurking, this post has actually broken through the fog and changed my perception of the man.

So thanks Digger.

Sadly, there is still a part deep inside me that is secretly cheering for Lance. What to do about that?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

FYI, Lance was a total jerk long before anyone knew who he was. Have a couple friends that raced with and against him during their Jr. years. If anything you can credit him for being a consistent douche, in that regard he hasn't changed a bit.

 

[Polish]

You know, some think that this forum is anti-armstrong, but I'm just imagining what would have happened if you'd said the same thing about Virenque instead of Armstrong about eight years ago (yes, there were cycling forums back then).

This whole idea of 'haters' is a relatively recent meme. There was never something wrong with people bagging continually about Pantani, Virenque or Ullrich back then. Them being douchebags was accepted as a law of nature. But now it's Armstrong's turn, and suddenly the backlash is considered a cosmic injustice to a man who has been deceiving us more than any other rider mentioned in this post.

So true Jonathan.

The people who call Pantani and Dicky and Jan douchebags
are no different from the people who call Lance a douchebag.

They are all douchebags.

 

[El Oso]

Here it is Hog:

http://www.deathride.com/

It is a good ride - it's a ride, not a race, so yes it's open to the general public. It's held July 8 and registration usually sells out really early - it's full now.

I haven't done it in a few years, but the entry date is usually towards the end of January. They do a lottery to determine entry since it is always well sold out.

Good ride. I'd estimate that the easiest of the climbs (second time up Ebbetts) would be at least a Cat 2 with the rest being 1 or HC. The first 4 climbs are on closed roads, which is nice. Good support.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, after 3640 posts in this thread alone, plus all the other rants going back and forth I've read in these forums over the last three years of lurking, this post has actually broken through the fog and changed my perception of the man.

So thanks Digger.

Sadly, there is still a part deep inside me that is secretly cheering for Lance. What to do about that?

It will go away as you get more comfortable with the truth of the matter. Rome was not built in a day, and even syphilis takes some time to cure once treated. Just stay away from Trek's, Michelob Ultra, Livestrong elliptical trainers, and read: http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden a couple of times. You will get rid of it in no time.

 

[Berzin]

This is true... but theHog seemed to indicate these sorts of rides weren't available anywhere in the US. Colorado and California are loaded with these rides.

Is Lance riding them? Probably not. Should he be training more in the mountains? Probably.

Do you have to go to Europe to get that kind of training? I don't think so. I could be misinformed, but I think that if you trained mostly in the Rockies, you'd be pretty well set up physically to handle the Alps or Pyranees. You wouldn't know the roads of course and you'd miss things tactically because of that, but I think you'd be on pretty even footing with someone training in Italy who's riding in France on those climbs for the first time.

I just thought it was a bit euro-centric to suggest that you can't find rides like that in the US... it's a large country you know. I wasn't suggesting Lance was training on the rides. My comments were on US geography... not Lance's training schedule.

Get off this theme already. It's tiresome and off-topic.

No one riding a grand tour could get away with training in the states and do well. The competition is lacking, and all the riders will tell you that there is nothing like training on the very roads they'll be competing on.

If you were right, more European pros base their training for the Giro, Vuelta and Tour in the states, but they don't.

Not one of them does. For whatever reason it does not translate to success on European roads. Just ask Tom Danielson and his many Mount Evans wins.

 

[WinterRider]

It will go away as you get more comfortable with the truth of the matter. Rome was not built in a day, and even syphilis takes some time to cure once treated. Just stay away from Trek's, Michelob Ultra, Livestrong elliptical trainers, and read: http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden a couple of times. You will get rid of it in no time.

Michelob Ultra - no problem, I like good beer
Livestrong elliptical trainers - no problem, I only ride bikes (and sometimes snowboards).
michael-ashenden interview - we all get it, he dopes better than the rest do!
Trek bikes - DOH! I bought a trek last spring, though it had nothing to do with lance and everything to do with the price tag (cheapest thing in my city that they still called a road bike). I have a new bike now, and maybe that was the first real step on the road to "awareness" , but if that's true, I may not be fully cured until I ride that trek into the ground. At the present rate I'd say that's a few winters away, even with the nasty road salt they use around here.

Until then... you can dream of the world being short one more fanboy

 

[fatandfast]

Lance is doing a guest spot on Glee. He plays a young dancer torn between a world of cycling and a promising dance career

 

[kurtinsc]

Get off this theme already. It's tiresome and off-topic.

No one riding a grand tour could get away with training in the states and do well. The competition is lacking, and all the riders will tell you that there is nothing like training on the very roads they'll be competing on.

If you were right, more European pros base their training for the Giro, Vuelta and Tour in the states, but they don't.

Not one of them does. For whatever reason it does not translate to success on European roads. Just ask Tom Danielson and his many Mount Evans wins.

I wouldn't think training in the US is in any way superior to training in Europe... just as adequate as training anywhere else aside from where the race will be held.

I'd doubt any Europeans would bother making the trip... but guys like Levi Leipheimer spend half the year training in the US and have done okay. I don't think it's the US in particular either... many Colombians seem to do quite well training a large percentage of time in the Colombian mountains too.

If a country has paved roads with the right kind of profile, I don't see why they wouldn't work for general training. Obviously, you still want to familiarize yourself with an actual race route if you want to focus on a particular race. But if you're NOT going to ride the route the race will be held on, I'm not sure I see a difference between riding similar profiles in the US, Spain, Germany, Colombia or New Zealand.

And by the way... responding with "get off the topic" is just about the most effective way of continuing a topic. If you really want a topic to stop... then not posting a response would probably work better.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

I wouldn't think training in the US is in any way superior to training in Europe... just as adequate as training anywhere else aside from where the race will be held.

I'd doubt any Europeans would bother making the trip... but guys like Levi Leipheimer spend half the year training in the US and have done okay. I don't think it's the US in particular either... many Colombians seem to do quite well training a large percentage of time in the Colombian mountains too.

If I recall correctly, I think Rominger spent a large chunk of time in northern California in 1993 building for the Tour. He might have tried the same in '94 as well... not sure.

 

[Anonymous]

Michelob Ultra - no problem, I like good beer
Livestrong elliptical trainers - no problem, I only ride bikes (and sometimes snowboards).
michael-ashenden interview - we all get it, he dopes better than the rest do!
Trek bikes - DOH! I bought a trek last spring, though it had nothing to do with lance and everything to do with the price tag (cheapest thing in my city that they still called a road bike). I have a new bike now, and maybe that was the first real step on the road to "awareness" , but if that's true, I may not be fully cured until I ride that trek into the ground. At the present rate I'd say that's a few winters away, even with the nasty road salt they use around here.

Until then... you can dream of the world being short one more fanboy

Hey, the journey of 1000 haters began with one convert...

 

[Publicus]

Try as you might, it is getting easier and easier to spot you.