The Official LANCE ARMSTRONG Thread 2010-2011

[Digger]

I would think by now folks could spot him straight away. The name has changed but the game is very much the same.

I feel so dirty and used.

 

[kurtinsc]

Sorry. Thought you were baiting. No offence intended.

Its not the height of Alpine climbs its the length and the undulations contained within. You have to climb them to know them. The gearing is most important. You have to get the gearing right or it will kill your chances. I don't mean you need a higher enough gear to ride uphill but you need the right combination. They don't have 20km+ climbs in the US. You have to teach yourself, train yourself to concentrate for over an hour on these climbs. Anyone can ride uphill but imagine yourself riding uphill for 2 hours, then 3 hours etc. Its so much different than riding on the flat at concentrating for that period of time.. You cannot replicate this sensation anywhere else in the world bar France, Italy and some of Spain.

From personal experience I've done d'Huez 4 times. Each and every time I've climbed it I've learnt something new. One prevailing theme of riding d'Huez is the concentration and knowing how to balance and channel your energy for the entire climb. The first 2km's it "ramps up" - expended too much energy there and it can cost you later. Thats the way it works - the action you take at km 2 and cost you at km 19. Throw in guys attacking and if you "know" the climb you can calculate if to follow, to limit or to counter. (This is where doping destroyed the sport - because everyone fat, thin could climb at the same speed. The nuances of climbs became less important.)

This years Tour uses several non-tradtional climbs. Armstrong doesn't know them from experience. So banging out 6 hours rides in Texas and flying around the world is not going to prepare him to "know" these climbs and how to concentrate riding up these mountains. Although I'm sure "hope", "courage" and "doing it for them" will counteract this

Just a point about not having 20km+ climbs in the US... we have a few.

In the Spartanburg area I live in, a race called "The Assault on Mount Mitchell" starts.

It's a bit over 100 miles long, and in the last 20 miles it climbs about 5500 feet (with just one short respite about halfway up). The last 10 miles are pretty continuously over 10%.

I know other climbs like this do exist... you CAN train for that sort of riding in the US. The Appalachian and Rockies do provide opportunities if you seek them out.

Now I'm sure there are still differences that would require training in France and Spain... but there are sustained climbs available for training in the US.

 

[thehog]

Exactly !!! that will be total and shameless doping !!!

You'll often hear the pros speak about "suppleness". What they mean is that when climbing hour after hour, day after day your muscles want to go into spasm - to slow you down. Meaning when riding on the flat you don't always pedal. You roll for portions of the ride and muscles relax. You start pedalling they contract and start working. When you climb you don't have the luxury to stop pedalling and roll. You can't because you basically stop. Therefore a 90 minute climb your muscles are contracting for a very long period of time. Your muscles can't "learn" how to deal with this in a Charlotte windtunnel or at a pinewood derby or anywhere outside the Alps and Pyrenees. Well thats unless they are pumped full of fresh cells allows the oxygen to pass through easily. The suppleness doesn't get any better with age. Its gets worse.

Watch Contador and Andy Shleck racing now. They are training their muscles to work hard for a full 90 minute period. Watch them attack then slow, attack then slow attempting to mimic this condition. Smart guys.

Look at the race programs of the potential Tour Top 20. They are all racing now. Building and building to July. There is only one rider out of the potential Top 20 who is not in Europe and not racing. Go figure that out.

This stuff is not rocket science. Its simple. If you train hard and train on the terrain you race on you put yourself into a good position. If you have stagnated training and train on the wrong terrain for the race then you won't be ready. Period. Lance was right - Hard work wins it.

 

[thehog]

Just a point about not having 20km+ climbs in the US... we have a few.

In the Spartanburg area I live in, a race called "The Assault on Mount Mitchell" starts.

It's a bit over 100 miles long, and in the last 20 miles it climbs about 5500 feet (with just one short respite about halfway up). The last 10 miles are pretty continuously over 10%.

I know other climbs like this do exist... you CAN train for that sort of riding in the US. The Appalachian and Rockies do provide opportunities if you seek them out.

Now I'm sure there are still differences that would require training in France and Spain... but there are sustained climbs available for training in the US.

I stand corrected. Armstrong just needs to soft pedal the 1000 miles from Texas to "The Assault on Mount Mitchell" for his recon missions

beeteedoubleu/ Have you ridden "Mount Mitchell"? Can you tell me what its like to train on these hills? Your own words.

One further point is that in France you can go to the Alps and tick off 4 climbs in day on one ride. Not sure that can be done in Hawaii.

 

[Digger]

I stand corrected. Armstrong just needs to soft pedal the 1000 miles from Texas to "The Assault on Mount Mitchell" for his recon missions

beeteedoubleu/ Have you ridden "Mount Mitchell"? Can you tell me what its like to train on these hills? Your own words.

One further point is that in France you can go to the Alps and tick off 4 climbs in day on one ride. Not sure that can be done in Hawaii.

Yeah but it's about the babes Hog.

 

[Tangled Tango]

I genuinely can't think of another champion with as little class over the years. From Merckx to Hinault to Lemond, Fignon, Roche, Delgado, Indurain etc etc, not one has shown as much ignorance and arrogance as Lance - to the press, to his compatriots and to the fans of the sport. Lets leave out the doping for a moment and focus on just one specific example. Look at the way he tried to diminish Sastre's 08 win, basically saying that the race was of a poor standard ('it was a joke' apparently)- so he not alone gets Sastre, who never did anything to Lance and is a guy who has served his dues, with that comment, but the whole race. Classy. And CVDV did not escape either, "Christian's a nice guy, but finishing fifth in the Tour de France? Come on!" And the reality is that with the way Alberto is winning since Feb of this year, last year and the previous year, he is showing real class in how a champion rider should behave and carry himself. Unlike Lance who appeared out of nowhere each June. That's not a cyclist, that's a tour de France rider. There's more to cycling than July. I wouldn't even say Alberto is a favourite rider of mine, but he handled himself well last year, and did absolutely nothing wrong, in the face of intimidation from within his own team. That 'war of words' was started by Lance during Paris Nice of last year, perpetuated by Lance during the Tour, and carried on further in the Autumn in conjunction with JB. Alberto - in fairness to the guy defended himself by stating the issues he experienced with the wheels.
Classy work by Lance also to castigate a whole nation of people - saying that the French anti-doping movement was a 'witch-hunt'. Also stating that he feared for his safety. "It's a strange climb ... long but not very steep, so you can keep 30, 40, 50 guys, and they can take shots at you from the back.” What a load of absolute tripe. But he used the French to feed into this myth in America that the French are jealous. Funny how they had no issues with Lemond, Indurain, Riis, Ullrich and Pantani. "I'm thinking of returning, as it's the best way of pi**ing the French off."
Lance, during the soccer World Cup, said that the 'French players tested positive for being a**holes'. To the Lance fans this seems to be hilarious. Again, what exactly did the French soccer players do to Lance?
He has called David Walsh a 'f***ing little troll', 'I hate that guy', 'gutter journalism'. Le Monde is 'tabloid thrash' apparently. By the way, to Walsh's credit, he replied that he didn't hate or dislike Lance, and that he even understood why he doped. Said that Greg was drunk during the phone call, thus adding fuel to the fire that Greg had a drink problem - something which seems to have been started by the Lance PR machine.
And it's true what one poster above has said. The Lance fans just keep batting away every shred of evidence which could be construed as negative, with not one bit of logic. Doping - no conviction they say, witchhunt, jealousy, Greg is jealous, people trying ot make money off my name, Betsy has an axe to grind, samples were spiked ("There's a setup here and I'm stuck in the middle of it,”) he lost weight, changed cadence, Ferrari tested body fat, changed focus.
Scumbag - all top sportsmen are this way.
Scumbag - look at his upbringing and his father
Womaniser but pretending to be the loving husband - good for him to be able to get these women.
Bullying other riders - all champions behave this way.
Profiting from cancer awareness - entitled to make a living ("The riskiest thing you can do is get greedy." (See picture below) I think most people would agree that 2m dollars for less than a week is greedy (TDU), but the Lance fans seem to have a different moral compass.
QUOTE]

I agree with your whole post. The strange thing is one of my oldest and best friends is exactly what you are describing. He believes everything that comes out of the LA pr machine and basically questions every other source. At this point the subject of LA is off limits with my friend and I. It´s just too contentious. The strangest thing is my friend is quite intelligent and has some knowledge of cycling (limited, but not ignorant of it). Still he dotes on LA, Phil & Paul ect. Nothing to be done but stay off that topic.

 

[MikeyClark]

You'll often hear the pros speak about "suppleness". What they mean is that when climbing hour after hour, day after day your muscles want to go into spasm - to slow you down. Meaning when riding on the flat you don't always pedal. You roll for portions of the ride and muscles relax. You start pedalling they contract and start working. When you climb you don't have the luxury to stop pedalling and roll. You can't because you basically stop. Therefore a 90 minute climb your muscles are contracting for a very long period of time. Your muscles can't "learn" how to deal with this in a Charlotte windtunnel or at a pinewood derby or anywhere outside the Alps and Pyrenees. Well thats unless they are pumped full of fresh cells allows the oxygen to pass through easily. The suppleness doesn't get any better with age. Its gets worse.

Watch Contador and Andy Shleck racing now. They are training their muscles to work hard for a full 90 minute period. Watch them attack then slow, attack then slow attempting to mimic this condition. Smart guys.

Look at the race programs of the potential Tour Top 20. They are all racing now. Building and building to July. There is only one rider out of the potential Top 20 who is not in Europe and not racing. Go figure that out.

This stuff is not rocket science. Its simple. If you train hard and train on the terrain you race on you put yourself into a good position. If you have stagnated training and train on the wrong terrain for the race then you won't be ready. Period. Lance was right - Hard work wins it.

Armstrong will be doing some serious climbing before the tour. He did that last year at the Giro and will again this year at several races. He is building up slowly so the peak lasts longer and stronger - he can't come in and out of form like these kids.

 

[BroDeal]

Armstrong will be doing some serious climbing before the tour. He did that last year at the Giro and will again this year at several races. He is building up slowly so the peak lasts longer and stronger - he can't come in and out of form like these kids.

Oh, look. It's BPC, the pathetic little troll with mental problems.

 

[MikeyClark]

Oh, look. It's BPC, the pathetic little troll with mental problems.

That's not very nice.

I'm merely reminding TheHog that Armstrong will be doing a lot of climbing before the tour. He made it sound as though he will just turn up at the tour without having done any.

However, he appears to have been focusing on his power in recent weeks, with good results at the Tour of Flanders. I suppose climbing will be the second phase as he loses weight.

 

[eleven]

Its not the height of Alpine climbs its the length and the undulations contained within. You have to climb them to know them. The gearing is most important. You have to get the gearing right or it will kill your chances. I don't mean you need a higher enough gear to ride uphill but you need the right combination. They don't have 20km+ climbs in the US. You have to teach yourself, train yourself to concentrate for over an hour on these climbs. Anyone can ride uphill but imagine yourself riding uphill for 2 hours, then 3 hours etc. Its so much different than riding on the flat at concentrating for that period of time.. You cannot replicate this sensation anywhere else in the world bar France, Italy and some of Spain.

I usually disagree with your opinions but respect your knowledge. This, however, is completely incorrect. There are dozens - hundreds - of 20K plus climbs in the US, a handful on the east coast and myriad in the intermountain west and the Sierras.

I've done Alpe d;Huez twice and while it's breathtaking and challenging, it's not all that different than many US climbs. I do Whiteface on a regular basis and I'd contend it's a harder climb than AdH. There are many like it in the US. When Armstrong trains in Aspen, he has access to several.

 

[Walkman]

Sorry. Thought you were baiting. No offence intended.

Its not the height of Alpine climbs its the length and the undulations contained within. You have to climb them to know them. The gearing is most important. You have to get the gearing right or it will kill your chances. I don't mean you need a higher enough gear to ride uphill but you need the right combination. They don't have 20km+ climbs in the US. You have to teach yourself, train yourself to concentrate for over an hour on these climbs. Anyone can ride uphill but imagine yourself riding uphill for 2 hours, then 3 hours etc. Its so much different than riding on the flat at concentrating for that period of time.. You cannot replicate this sensation anywhere else in the world bar France, Italy and some of Spain.

From personal experience I've done d'Huez 4 times. Each and every time I've climbed it I've learnt something new. One prevailing theme of riding d'Huez is the concentration and knowing how to balance and channel your energy for the entire climb. The first 2km's it "ramps up" - expended too much energy there and it can cost you later. Thats the way it works - the action you take at km 2 and cost you at km 19. Throw in guys attacking and if you "know" the climb you can calculate if to follow, to limit or to counter. (This is where doping destroyed the sport - because everyone fat, thin could climb at the same speed. The nuances of climbs became less important.)

This years Tour uses several non-tradtional climbs. Armstrong doesn't know them from experience. So banging out 6 hours rides in Texas and flying around the world is not going to prepare him to "know" these climbs and how to concentrate riding up these mountains. Although I'm sure "hope", "courage" and "doing it for them" will counteract this

Apology accepted.

Thanks for some interestring reading about climbing. Have you raced yourself? Anyway, I did just wrote you a reply but somehow I got logged out and everything disappeared so I thought I'd rewrite it in a smaller size.

Basically I have got two questions. I'd like to know how LA could climb so well in last years Tour when he time-trialed like crap? Shouldn't it be easier to get back on ITT-form rather than climbing-form.

And what do you make of LA:s chance in this years Tour? Based on you posting on the forum I can tell that you isn't his biggets fan but if you would try to look at it from an objective view, what do you make of it?

Personally, I don't know what to make of LA. All those problems and then a really good result at Tour of Flanders but then home to US insted of racing in Europe. Weird. But at the same time, one can not ignore last years performance at the Tour. So in someway I think he could be stronger this year with one more year of racing "under his belt". I know some people say that last years results was because of the ITT but he did stay with the Schlecks on some of the climbs and even if Andy was far above LA Fränk was just once clearly better than LA (the stage he won). 37 or 38, does that really matter?

 

[ErmOkk]

I guess he'll take off to europe right after the ToC and get into the alps and pyrenees, at least that sounds logical since the tour is approaching pretty fast now... I guess he knows what he's doing after seven tour wins, at least when he feels like being competetive again.

 

[Berzin]

I usually disagree with your opinions but respect your knowledge. This, however, is completely incorrect. There are dozens - hundreds - of 20K plus climbs in the US, a handful on the east coast and myriad in the intermountain west and the Sierras.

I've done Alpe d;Huez twice and while it's breathtaking and challenging, it's not all that different than many US climbs. I do Whiteface on a regular basis and I'd contend it's a harder climb than AdH. There are many like it in the US. When Armstrong trains in Aspen, he has access to several.

You are arguing semantics. There is not one director sportif on a major European team that would even entertain the preposterous notion of having their riders train in the US as a MAJOR BASIS for the fitness, power and endurance needed to prepare for a grand tour.

So even if what you say is true, it's not applicable to the realities of pro cycling. Riders reconnoiter Tour stages and ride against European competition to prepare themselves, as Contador has been doing.

So now Armstrong, the guy who filled the airways with propaganda about riding Tour mountain stages in preparation months ahead of time in those Trek commercials is suddenly on a different track that will work equally as well as his previous MO.

 

[BroDeal]

That's not very nice.

This is the BPC's "get a new username and pretend to be normal for a short while" ploy. It is only a matter of time before he begins crapflooding the threads with his idiocy.

 

[eleven]

You are arguing semantics. There is not one director sportif on a major European team that would even entertain the preposterous notion of having their riders train in the US as a MAJOR BASIS for the fitness, power and endurance needed to prepare for a grand tour.

Huh? What does that have to do with a claim that you can't find comparable climbs here? Except for the quality of racing, you can train in the US and build a similar training regiment to anything you could do anywhere in Europe. Of course you can't race here as you can there.

So even if what you say is true, it's not applicable to the realities of pro cycling. Riders reconnoiter Tour stages and ride against European competition to prepare themselves, as Contador has been doing.

It's not like Armstrong and Radio Shack haven't raced in Europe this year. They have - and they will do so again. Most big climb tour stages can't be reconnoitered right now anyway.

So now Armstrong, the guy who filled the airways with propaganda about riding Tour mountain stages in preparation months ahead of time in those Trek commercials is suddenly on a different track that will work equally as well as his previous MO.

It's April, Berzin. During Armstrong's dominance, how many Alpine tour stages had he scoped as of tax day?

 

[BikeCentric]

Sometimes Armstrong is criticised for not liking the media enough, other times he is criticised for doing too much media and being a media darling. Again it's a demonstration of a modern problem.



That's my point. They would have been if people could second guess them on the internet everyday and had the level of information about their activities to mull over we have now.



You often have to scratch the surface to find it. Most casual fans will not be aware of the level of hatred there is for Armstrong on some internet cycling forums. You probably haven't heard of the haters that follow athletes in other sports, or in other areas of life. But they are out there.

As for Alberto he is not English speaking, which makes a difference with the focus of people, and he is still quite new as a dominant champ. Give that one another couple of years. But yes, there probably are exceptions if they have an incredibly lovable characters - which is not most people.

FYI all, this new troll is BPC/Arbiter/Sprocket01/Great White/etc. etc. etc.

 

[MikeyClark]

This is the BPC's "get a new username and pretend to be normal for a short while" ploy. It is only a matter of time before he begins crapflooding the threads with his idiocy.

The person you are talking about must be a serious troll to get you so passionate about him and not the likes of Thoughtforfood. I haven't seen you in the Wiggins thread yet to tell him not to start trolling threads. Maybe you are heading there now?

I haven't seen BPC's stuff so i can't comment, but it's probably not worth getting upset about it. If he is an idiot who makes no sense then everybody should be able to see that. I don't want ThoughtforFood banned because he says something silly about hair cuts and tries to provoke people on Wiggins not driving across Europe. He's just having a bit of fun. It's not really something I am into doing, but I'm not going to sweat about it.

 

[thehog]

Apology accepted.

Thanks for some interestring reading about climbing. Have you raced yourself? Anyway, I did just wrote you a reply but somehow I got logged out and everything disappeared so I thought I'd rewrite it in a smaller size.

Basically I have got two questions. I'd like to know how LA could climb so well in last years Tour when he time-trialed like crap? Shouldn't it be easier to get back on ITT-form rather than climbing-form.

And what do you make of LA:s chance in this years Tour? Based on you posting on the forum I can tell that you isn't his biggets fan but if you would try to look at it from an objective view, what do you make of it?

Personally, I don't know what to make of LA. All those problems and then a really good result at Tour of Flanders but then home to US insted of racing in Europe. Weird. But at the same time, one can not ignore last years performance at the Tour. So in someway I think he could be stronger this year with one more year of racing "under his belt". I know some people say that last years results was because of the ITT but he did stay with the Schlecks on some of the climbs and even if Andy was far above LA Fränk was just once clearly better than LA (the stage he won). 37 or 38, does that really matter?

Its a good question. I really don't know how he climbed so well last year. He looked terrible on Veriber but appeared to get better and better as the Tour went along. In saying that last years Tour was a little soft for climbing so that would have helped him. Having the race leader in the team also helped from a controlling the race point of view - eg. what happened on the Tourmalet was a disgrace.

As for this year; From everything I know and have seen he shouldn't be able to make Top 20 however Armstrong is a different beast than most other cyclists. Doping, age and what I think of him aside somehow I think he'll end up Top 5. I don't know how and this defies all logic to everything I know and to everything he has said in the past about Ullrich. You know the right way to train and how you have to base yourself in Europe and recon he climbs 28 times each etc etc etc.

He's never been a big racer and kept his days racing low every years he's won the Tour. He's theory was that the human body had a limited set number of days per year that it could perform at its physical peak. Therefore he would limit the racing days and train towards this peak. He's early season form has always been poor so no change there.

This year is different thou. Its just feeling but he looks bad. He looks heavy, he looks tired and you get the feeling he can't really be bothered anymore. He's been sick, he's dropped out of races and thats not the prep to win the Tour. Everything has to fall into place perfectly to win. Contrast Contador preparation (not results) to Armstrong. That alone should tell you the differences. One is taking it seriously the other not so. Now he only has the ToC, Switzerland then the Tour. Thats leaving it very very late to be a challenger. He may attempt an "Ullrich" and ride himself into form in the first week of the Tour but I'm not sure thats plausible way to do things anymore because Ullrich was riding to the first rest day for a refill.

Something bothers me about the entire program. Whats being said and whats being done is very different. I have concerns about what might happen at the Tour. If you watch CI and the way he climbed it was bizarre. Bar Contador it was a mid-level field and he was still losing 6 minutes on the stage. How do you make that up and then some more to be able to win the Tour? Now some say he may only been training but you don't just "train" on climbs like those. Its better to sit in the bunch and get dragged up the hill to "train'" not sit off the back on your own trailed by 3 teammates. Why do that? I would have gone to the Alps and got some serious training in where you could knock of 3-4 climbs in one day not one Cat 1 short climb in Corsica.

One other worry about the Tour is that something tells me Kloden, Levi, Popo will control the race from stage 5 onwards which along with Armstrong and that will defy logic. I'm not sure this will be a good things for cycling but I'm not sure anyone will care. We'll get the story how he was "bluffing" the entire year and fooled everyone.

July will tell the story and another year will be gone and he'll be another year closer to going away and leaving cycling to get back to where it needs to be.

 

[BroDeal]

The person you are talking about must be a serious troll to get you so passionate about him and not the likes of Thoughtforfood. I haven't seen you in the Wiggins thread yet to tell him not to start trolling threads. Maybe you are heading there now?

I haven't seen BPC's stuff so i can't comment, but it's probably not worth getting upset about it. If he is an idiot who makes no sense then everybody should be able to see that. I don't want ThoughtforFood banned because he says something silly about hair cuts and tries to provoke people on Wiggins not driving across Europe. He's just having a bit of fun. It's not really something I am into doing, but I'm not going to sweat about it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The person you are talking about must be a serious troll to get you so passionate about him and not the likes of Thoughtforfood. I haven't seen you in the Wiggins thread yet to tell him not to start trolling threads. Maybe you are heading there now?

I haven't seen BPC's stuff so i can't comment, but it's probably not worth getting upset about it. If he is an idiot who makes no sense then everybody should be able to see that. I don't want ThoughtforFood banned because he says something silly about hair cuts and tries to provoke people on Wiggins not driving across Europe. He's just having a bit of fun. It's not really something I am into doing, but I'm not going to sweat about it.

Can you point out what is 'trolling' about highlighting that a rider does not travel from Girona to Holland for a race when the rider who finished second made exactly that journey?

Actually BPC- what is your definition of trolling?

 

[thehog]

I usually disagree with your opinions but respect your knowledge. This, however, is completely incorrect. There are dozens - hundreds - of 20K plus climbs in the US, a handful on the east coast and myriad in the intermountain west and the Sierras.

I've done Alpe d;Huez twice and while it's breathtaking and challenging, it's not all that different than many US climbs. I do Whiteface on a regular basis and I'd contend it's a harder climb than AdH. There are many like it in the US. When Armstrong trains in Aspen, he has access to several.

Show me a route like this and I'll start listening.

 

[MikeyClark]

Can you point out what is 'trolling' about highlighting that a rider does not travel from Girona to Holland for a race when the rider who finished second made exactly that journey?

It didn't quite make the point like that. Read the nature of his comments in the thread - you don't need to be a brain surgeon to work out he is trolling. It's all about hairdos and pretending it was a terrible decision. Reading through some of his previous posts the same user admits to looking for any reason to hate on Team Sky. Nobody is denying he is a troll, including himself.

I'm relaxed about it. Banter is part of sport and we should not take it too seriously. But according to you he does go beyond this on other topics so I'll have to revise my position if I see that.

 

[BroDeal]

...

That is rich. Trollboy accuses other people of trolling.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...........

You appear to suggest you have standards - what are they exactly?

 

[MikeyClark]

what is your definition of trolling?

Well it can be a grey area. Some people believe a troll is anyone who disagrees with them about a subject they are interested in "they can't do that - this is my hobby and is very important, so what I say has to be the only truth!" Some people believe trolling is anybody, apart from themselves, that uses humour, even in passing, to make a point. But generally it's someone who is making ad hominen attacks, can't stay on topic, and repeatedly does things to provoke others and tries to ruin a thread just because someone they don't like is posting in it, like the fella here who is posting pictures instead of making a point. I suppose that level of trolling is a sort of fascism.