The Official LANCE ARMSTRONG Thread 2010-2011

[Oldman]

There's a big difference between track and field,

Pro cycling, for the average fan, is about one race and one race only-the Tour de France. Lance dominating this one race and then taking the rest of the cycling calendar year off is not all that impressive in comparison to other streaks in sports.

Throw in how he achieved his feat and the accomplishment loses quite a bit of it's luster, that's if you're a pragmatic thinker and not some blithering, drooling, unrepentant fanboy.[/QUOTE]

Can anyone imagine what Edwin Moses could have accomplished on a bike? That physique could have won any classic or TT. Cycling fans need to know that many really stellar atheletes exist in our world. The cream of the crop is not necessarily in cycling.

 

[pedaling squares]

Hurdles?
Squash?
Cricket?
Croquet?
Lacrosse?

C'mon, hardly need to pack your Suitcase of Courage for those.
Probably could get by with a Man Purse.

Hurdles - I haven't tried it but anyone who keeps trying a sport after catching his nards on a barrier is tough in my books.

Cricket - catching a fast-moving hard ball with bare hands... tough.

Lacrosse - man, you've got to be kidding. When you're not getting punched in the noggin you're getting a stick rammed into your spine. It's like hockey mated with UFC. That sport makes cycling look like tiddlywinks.

 

[Polish]

Edwin would have been up against Hinault and Fignon

Can anyone imagine what Edwin Moses could have accomplished on a bike? That physique could have won any classic or TT. Cycling fans need to know that many really stellar atheletes exist in our world. The cream of the crop is not necessarily in cycling.

I would argue that the cream of the World Class Athletic Crop are NOT employed as cyclists. I mean c'mon, cyclists are not world class "athletes" as much as they are world class "engines".

But that said, there have been thousands and thousands of Pro 400m hurdle races since the late 1800's. And only 100 or so TdF's. TdF's are BRUTAL.

And Edwin's total streak equates to about an hour and a half of running around a flat track, and some jumping, in nice weather conditions.

Lance's streak entailed over 600 hours in all weather conditions and hundreds of thousands of feet of elevation gain and descent and gain etc....

Sure, Edwin trained hard running and jumping. But did he train harder than Lance? Did Edwin weigh his food? And believe it or not, Lance DID other races besides the TdF.

In the end, however, all the ProEliteBestintheWorldSportStreaks are awesome in their own right. Difficult to speculate which is the HARDEST

Except squash. That is not the hardest.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I would argue that the cream of the World Class Athletic Crop are NOT employed as cyclists. I mean c'mon, cyclists are not world class "athletes" as much as they are world class "engines".

But that said, there have been thousands and thousands of Pro 400m hurdle races since the late 1800's. And only 100 or so TdF's. TdF's are BRUTAL.

And Edwin's total streak equates to about an hour and a half of running around a flat track, and some jumping, in nice weather conditions.

Lance's streak entailed over 600 hours in all weather conditions and hundreds of thousands of feet of elevation gain and descent and gain etc....

Sure, Edwin trained hard running and jumping. But did he train harder than Lance? Did Edwin weigh his food? And believe it or not, Lance DID other races besides the TdF.

In the end, however, all the ProEliteBestintheWorldSportStreaks are awesome in their own right. Difficult to speculate which is the HARDEST

Except squash. That is not the hardest.

When a game is called 'squash', it's unlikely to be the 'hardest'

 

[Oldman]

I would argue that the cream of the World Class Athletic Crop are NOT employed as cyclists. I mean c'mon, cyclists are not world class "athletes" as much as they are world class "engines".

But that said, there have been thousands and thousands of Pro 400m hurdle races since the late 1800's. And only 100 or so TdF's. TdF's are BRUTAL.

And Edwin's total streak equates to about an hour and a half of running around a flat track, and some jumping, in nice weather conditions.

Lance's streak entailed over 600 hours in all weather conditions and hundreds of thousands of feet of elevation gain and descent and gain etc....

Sure, Edwin trained hard running and jumping. But did he train harder than Lance? Did Edwin weigh his food? And believe it or not, Lance DID other races besides the TdF.

In the end, however, all the ProEliteBestintheWorldSportStreaks are awesome in their own right. Difficult to speculate which is the HARDEST

Except squash. That is not the hardest.

Edwin was undefeated and won gold medals when the entire world was running against him. He didn't have teammate schlepping for him, apologists making excuses for him and a legion of "trainers" assisting every natural talent he had. I've been a hurdler and can tell you the concentration for 400 meters to hold form and maintain pace is equal to the effort I've put into a 100 mile road race...that I won. He invented the training that made him successful. If you knew much about sports you'd have a better sense of the effort necessary.
Lance has had a machine at his disposal. Given those resources Lance has had at his disposal; several other riders could have beat him in half the Tours he's done. Anyone care to supply names?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Given those resources Lance has had at his disposal; several other riders could have beat him in half the Tours he's done. Anyone care to supply names?

Raymundas Rumsas would have crushed him like a bug.

 

[Oldman]

Raymundas Rumsas would have crushed him like a bug.

Good start. How about half of his teammates?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

dum de dum de da.

oops/ beg pardon.

The hardest sport is boxing. Period. The hardest to become good at, become professional at, to become champion at, IMHO.

ESPN did a remarkable, data-heavy analysis of sports and their athletic difficulty, and as far as I can make of it, they got it right.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills?sort=endurance#grid

Re those who could have done more with what Lance has/had...

1. Lemond
2. Bugno
3. Rominger
4. Berzin
5. Pantani

 

[BroDeal]

Good start. How about half of his teammates?

After Armstrong retired and Dr. Ferrari was available for other contenders, we saw what FLandis was capable of once he got on the full program. That brother was flying.

 

[BroDeal]

oops/ beg pardon.

The hardest sport is boxing. Period. The hardest to become good at, become professional at, to become champion at, IMHO.

As a long time boxing fan, I question that. The history boxing is filled with bums who were shepherded to an impressive record in preparation for a huge big payday and then, after all the chumps had bet their money, got obliterated in the ring. Boxing can easily lay claim to be a sport more corrupt than cycling.

Currently the heavyweight div of boxing is a joke compared to what it was in the 80's or even the first half of the 90's. The real deals, like Pacquiao and Mayweather, are few and far between these days. The sport is in a sad state.

 

[python]

ESPN did a remarkable, data-heavy analysis of sports and their athletic difficulty, and as far as I can make of it, they got it right.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills?sort=endurance#grid

very interesting analysis indeed.

at least, they ranked cycling endurance right.

the expert panel looks well qualified too but id exclude journalists (no offense).

id also rank the 10 'athletism' components not equally (as they did).

 

[Condorman]

...

In the end, however, all the ProEliteBestintheWorldSportStreaks are awesome in their own right. Difficult to speculate which is the HARDEST

Except squash. That is not the hardest.

I have been a racing cyclist and a club squash player. I KNOW which is the hardest of
those two.

 

[auscyclefan94]

oops/ beg pardon.

The hardest sport is boxing. Period. The hardest to become good at, become professional at, to become champion at, IMHO.

ESPN did a remarkable, data-heavy analysis of sports and their athletic difficulty, and as far as I can make of it, they got it right.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills?sort=endurance#grid

Re those who could have done more with what Lance has/had...

1. Lemond
2. Bugno
3. Rominger
4. Berzin
5. Pantani

What about Ullrich?

HGH gut. Even though the subcutaneous fat is very low, there is lots of fat around the major organs. It is believed to be caused by a some combination of HGH, insulin, and IGF-1 use. The intestines have a lot of IGF-1 receptors.

Is that you BroDeal in your spare time?

Just in case someone later claims that RCS wronged Radio Shack by not inviting them to the Giro:

Seems to me that RS have an attitude of "were too good/ better than the giro" attitude. We should all put money into the UCI to expose this guy. Though then we would have to out bid Pharmstrong's donation to cover up any of his dope results.

 

[Anonymous]

Over here, squash is food, not a sport.

Over here it's a game to allow middle-aged merchant bankers to work up a sweat together and take a shower together, while maintaining a facade of heterosexuality.

 

[Anonymous]

Re those who could have done more with what Lance has/had...

1. Lemond
2. Bugno
3. Rominger
4. Berzin
5. Pantani

If that game is going to be played, there are many cyclists who could have done better than LA with what he had. LA is physically average. Average height, average build, average VO2 etc etc compared to many other cyclists. There is nothing exceptional about him physically. He just had the strength of will and strength of pill to do what he did. Even the likes of Boardman are IMO physically superior to LA. Granted, Boardman probably didn't have the desire to do what LA did, but physically he was up there.

 

[progressor]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills?sort=endurance#grid

+
This list is comedy gold.

Baseball/softball tougher than soccer which in turn is tougher than rugby

High Jump tougher than middle distance running

Rowing below nearly everything at 39?

For just a few insane comparisons.

 

[Big GMaC]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills?sort=endurance#grid

+
This list is comedy gold.

Baseball/softball tougher than soccer which in turn is tougher than rugby

High Jump tougher than middle distance running

Rowing below nearly everything at 39?

For just a few insane comparisons.

For once, I agree with you pro.

Rowing (personal bias my main sport) that low? Ha!

Also, there is a massive inflation for traditional "American" Sports, see the higher rankings of Baseball / Basketball / Football etc.

Soccer > Rugby? not to malign but come on!

It is clear that at the top level of every sport you will have people who are exceptional at THAT sport and it is always difficult to compare.

e.g. there are some FAT baseball players with exceptional recation times and co-ordination in the major leagues. But it is very hard to compare the 'difficulty' of that to another sport that is based on a completely different skill set. Whilst it may not be "difficult" to swin a bat, it will be difficult to hit it like one of those guys.

That is why cross-comparision is hard. Also people have different concepts of what makes a sport hard... I mean, I find some of the things that gymnasts do pretty funny and I have never really got the point of squash, but I am never going to rival those people at those skills!

 

[Oldman]

If that game is going to be played, there are many cyclists who could have done better than LA with what he had. LA is physically average. Average height, average build, average VO2 etc etc compared to many other cyclists. There is nothing exceptional about him physically. He just had the strength of will and strength of pill to do what he did. Even the likes of Boardman are IMO physically superior to LA. Granted, Boardman probably didn't have the desire to do what LA did, but physically he was up there.

My point to the blind fans. It's like saying Michael Schumacher could have racked up all those wins driving a Prius.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Granted, Boardman probably didn't have the desire to do what LA did, but physically he was up there.

Do you really mean to say that Boardman could have won the Tour seven times, if only he had wanted to?

Susan

 

[basque1]

My point to the blind fans. It's like saying Michael Schumacher could have racked up all those wins driving a Prius.

You are exaggerating to make a point, right? I agree there are many cyclists in the pro peloton with roughly the same phys specs as Rants Rantstrong, but a Prius v. F1s? Hahahah!

As far as the sports comparisons go, I wrote a long-*** post last night and was logged out, unbeknownst to me, while writing it, so I lost it when I pressed submit. Which sucks, because it was absolutely ****ing brilliant.

Anyway, suffice to say that a win-streak in women's wheelchair basketball does not make a streak of Tour wins "pale in comparison" to whomever wrote that. And as for squash--come on, man. You need to look at depth of the talent pool here. Pro cycling draws from a very deep pool. Not as deep as NBA or NFL or European Futbol, but deep nonetheless. Squash draws from a puddle by comparison. As for racquet sports, compare Federer to the guy with 550 squash wins in a row. Is anyone going to seriously argue that Federer wouldn't "squash" that guy in athletic ability? And wtf does Ripken's participation streak have to do with anything.

RE: Relative Difficulty. As for how "hard" it is to hit a ball with a bat, in my mind that is only scarcely different than how "hard" it is to hit a golf ball, though it requires more quickness and reactivity. Having played lots of baseball and *tons* of golf, I know both are very difficult. But they are difficult technically. They require hand-eye coordination, not fitness. I don't have the same sort of reverence for the technical sports as I do for the sports that require digging deep, that reveal who you are, because the latter expose weakness of mind and depth of character. Cycling does this in the extreme. I think sports that have a dynamic combo of both technical skill and fitness and agility are the most fun to watch, like basketball. But I respect, and am drawn to, sports like cycling, middle/long distance running, XC skiing etc the most because they require an amazing human effort. They can be fun, but they're not about simple fun--they're not games. They're explorations of the limits of human capability.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills?sort=endurance#grid

+
This list is comedy gold.

Baseball/softball tougher than soccer which in turn is tougher than rugby

High Jump tougher than middle distance running

Rowing below nearly everything at 39?

For just a few insane comparisons.

I make no claim as to its perfection but as a thorough, criteria driven assembly of data, it makes a good attempt. I agree that middle distance running is "harder" than high-jumping. Many of the "ball" sports would be on equal ground, as they are so similar in skill, duration, difficulty, not too much difference, as the specialty positions skew "hardness".

Ice Hockey at 2, look spot on to me.

They get it more right than wrong.

@Hibbles - Boardman just was not stable, both in his psyche and in keeping the rubber side down. On a wattmeter, he was a specimen.

 

[Anonymous]

Do you really mean to say that Boardman could have won the Tour seven times, if only he had wanted to?

Susan

No, I'm saying he was naturally as physically gifted as LA, if not moreso. I'm sure if Boardman had Armstrong's medical cabinet, he could have won a tour. If he had Armstrong's medical cabinet and desire, he could have matched Armstrong's achievements.

Armstrong was an average athlete (comparatively speaking in the world of pro-cycling), in the right place, at the right time, with the right doctor and with a unique internal desire to win.

 

[Big GMaC]

Do you really mean to say that Boardman could have won the Tour seven times, if only he had wanted to?

Susan

No, I think he is saying that Boardman could have won the Tour if he was willing to prostitute himself to drugs in the way Cartstrong did. He was a watts machine naturally, but He didn't dope and his hormone problem meant he couldn't compete for GC in that era

 

[Oldman]

Do you really mean to say that Boardman could have won the Tour seven times, if only he had wanted to?

Susan

Everyone's hyping their favorite old-time rider but I think the point's been made. Given the resources dedicated to Lance over his 7 Tours and the effective neutralizing of serious contenders by paying them as teammates: there have been other contenders that would have interfered with that string of victories.
Lance does not spend much time giving credit to those teams. If a prudent man with an eye to his legacy was writing a autobiography; he should start out with thanks to the guys that made it possible.

 

[BikeCentric]

You are exaggerating to make a point, right? I agree there are many cyclists in the pro peloton with roughly the same phys specs as Rants Rantstrong, but a Prius v. F1s? Hahahah!

As far as the sports comparisons go, I wrote a long-*** post last night and was logged out, unbeknownst to me, while writing it, so I lost it when I pressed submit. Which sucks, because it was absolutely ****ing brilliant.

Anyway, suffice to say that a win-streak in women's wheelchair basketball does not make a streak of Tour wins "pale in comparison" to whomever wrote that. And as for squash--come on, man. You need to look at depth of the talent pool here. Pro cycling draws from a very deep pool. Not as deep as NBA or NFL or European Futbol, but deep nonetheless. Squash draws from a puddle by comparison. As for racquet sports, compare Federer to the guy with 550 squash wins in a row. Is anyone going to seriously argue that Federer wouldn't "squash" that guy in athletic ability? And wtf does Ripken's participation streak have to do with anything.

RE: Relative Difficulty. As for how "hard" it is to hit a ball with a bat, in my mind that is only scarcely different than how "hard" it is to hit a golf ball, though it requires more quickness and reactivity. Having played lots of baseball and *tons* of golf, I know both are very difficult. But they are difficult technically. They require hand-eye coordination, not fitness. I don't have the same sort of reverence for the technical sports as I do for the sports that require digging deep, that reveal who you are, because the latter expose weakness of mind and depth of character. Cycling does this in the extreme. I think sports that have a dynamic combo of both technical skill and fitness and agility are the most fun to watch, like basketball. But I respect, and am drawn to, sports like cycling, middle/long distance running, XC skiing etc the most because they require an amazing human effort. They can be fun, but they're not about simple fun--they're not games. They're explorations of the limits of human capability.

Great post, I agree completely.

Also in regards to the talent pool of Pro Cycling, it is indeed huge and probably one of the biggest talent pools in all sports. It's basically all of Western Europe, some of Eastern Europe, a small % of a large population in North & South America, etc. etc. It's a big freakin' talent pool, thus these guys going au bloc every year in Europe are REALLY freakin' fast.