The Official Lance Hating Thread

[Alpe d'Huez]

Don't recall his exact wording, but I think Lemond has said had he known the effects EPO would have had, in retrospect he probably would have done it as well. He's very genuine, if talks a bit much these days, but in his youth he was extremely driven, and could be petulant, certainly before his gunshot wound. He seemed pretty humble in the 1989 Tour though. Even somber when his career came to it's end.

Willy Voet implied that Zulle wasn't a heavy doper, and mostly did what the team did, and that Zulle didn't respond well to cortisone shots, which killed his 1996 Giro chances. Still, it's pretty likely that Zulle took EPO even before the 1999 Tour, reading between the lines in the Ashenden report. But not likely he took it during.

Always felt if there were no drugs invented, Pantani still would have been one of the greatest climbers ever, but not the GC contender he became. His TT speeds were way too high for now obvious reasons.

Also according to Voet, Delion was completely against doping, and a health nut who wished to be a nautropathic physician. Delion's career was over at 27 when he couldn't even keep up with the autobus in 1994. Astonishing considering he was one of the greatest talents just five years previous. Voet later said he apologized to Gilles' face.

 

[BigBoat]

Zulle took epo during the Tour, FOR SURE!

 

[BigBoat]

Willy Voet implied that Zulle wasn't a heavy doper, and mostly did what the team did, and that Zulle didn't respond well to cortisone shots, which killed his 1996 Giro chances. Still, it's pretty likely that Zulle took EPO even before the 1999 Tour, reading between the lines in the Ashenden report. But not likely he took it during.

.

Why would you dope for a race and not keep doping during it if you could?! Its 3 weeks long!

You could just lie and tell your fans you didnt dope! Or if you want to discredit Lance say he doped and you didnt...

With MILLIONS of dollars on the line did Zulle want to finish 2nd? He said himself if he had not done epo he'd have been "painting houses." That means below last place in the pros guys.

BRO, Alp, whomever else reading >>> Would he have done epo before the Tour, and then been LOSING to Lance and not injected epo? Your crit will drop dramatically during a hard 3 week Tour. HE was juicing during the race bros and it wasnt just with epo! Insulin, HGH, anabolic steroids, etc.

If he had not used epo during the Tour, but started with a 52% crit on epo he would have been outside top 50 places by the end...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

BigBoat - I'm going by what Ashenden said during the oft-referenced interview. That of the 13 positives out of 85 samples, we know 6 belong to Lance. At least one belongs to Beltran. Two to unnamed French riders. Two more belong to the riders that got 2nd and 3rd after the prologue. Those are Zulle and Olano.

That leaves two more tests Ashenden didn't account for, but he implied they were also during early in the Tour. There's a chance they belonged to Zulle and/or Olano, but I would think he would have pointed that out, but he seemed to state the opposite, actually. Implying that Zulle, Olano and others doped on EPO before the 1999 Tour started exclusively. While Armstrong definitely doped before and during with EPO.

Of course Ashenden also said there were several more tests that were just under the border for what they determined would be considered "certainly positive", including some by Lance. I suppose some of those could have been Zulle as well.

Kind of sucks that we're splitting hairs here. We've already determined they doped, and almost talk about it in a casual way, then just discuss or debate who doped more!

 

[BigBoat]

Kind of sucks that we're splitting hairs here. We've already determined they doped, and almost talk about it in a casual way, then just discuss or debate who doped more!

There are 02 carriers, analgesics also that they used and STILL use!...

Who was caught with HemAssist at the 2001 Giro? Postal had Actovegin guys... There is heavy **** that works the same as epo too...

Guys in these Tours are seeing more gains then you would get on just EPO or blood doping. There's gene doping now too and I dont know jack about that... But these doctors like Chechini, and Ferrari sure the hell do!

Thing is blood doping with your own blood gives the SINGLE biggest gain. So they must still be doing that since I've already proved its peanuts to do and get away with, using a doctor and one or two trusted sources max.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Boat - As you know removing your own blood and re-injecting it is useful, but intrusive, and you have a down time after the withdrawl. This is why Dynepo, and Hemopure are so useful. Nearly impossible to test for.

Repoxygen is a peculiar one, as it's still in early testing phase. So it's almost impossible to know how well it actually works. Tomas Springstein is reported to attain it, and possibly use it on XC skiers in the 2006 Torino Olympics, but WADA was unable to re-create his purchase, and so far has only found various forms of EPO for sale on the black market reporting to be Repoxygen. When you get to stem-cell genetic therapy, I can only speculate what people are expecting, or how well it will work? But I'll be it's been tried. Potential side effects of this type of doping could be horrific, and remain entirely unknown.

 

[BroDeal]

BigBoat - I'm going by what Ashenden said during the oft-referenced interview. That of the 13 positives out of 85 samples, we know 6 belong to Lance. At least one belongs to Beltran. Two to unnamed French riders. Two more belong to the riders that got 2nd and 3rd after the prologue. Those are Zulle and Olano.

I thought the known samples belong to riders tested after the prologue because all the prologue samples were positive. They were Armstrong, Beltran, Hamburger, and Castelblanco (sp?). Did I miss other samples being linked to Zulle and Olano?

 

[unsheath]

There are a lot of people who constantly point out thst lots of other riders doped so why pick on Lance. For me, Lance is a different case, not even about whether he doped or not.

In 98, the Festina affair happened, the genie was out of the bottle, what had long had been suspected was true. Some athletes, admittedly not many, were now prepared to speak out against doping whilst in the past they would have been ridiculed, now they were believed. Into 99, some teams stopped doping, others continued as normal. I remember Jean Cyril Robin saying it was about 15% of the peloton doping at Paris-Nice.

The 1999 Tour was labelled The Tour of Redepmtion, a new era for cycling, Lance won at a canter. I believe Lances early career suffered as a result of others EPO use 92-95, if he was clean he had plenty of justification for feeling bitter, he had witnesses the Festina affair from the outside, had been away from the sport for a few years, not very popular with fellow riders, non-european, fantastic back story. He was the perfect candidate to break the 'ometra' that existed, just imagine, the Tour winner speaking out against doping, what an example that would have set. Who would have disagreed with Lance.

What did we get, Lance saying he had never experienced anything connected with doping and saying the Festina affair was a huge surprise to him. End result, 'Ometra' reinforced , the sport goes backwards rather than forwards. At the crosswards, the sport takes the wrong direction and the main man at the time? Lance Armstrong. He continued in cycling, making millions, huge media profile, global star, all the while reinforcing thr law of silence and putting it where it has been for the last decade, in the gutter.

If anybody out there can justify the affair with Simeoni in 2004, please try to explain it to me. I have never seen or heard of nything like it, that is why Lance stands below anyone else in my estimates.

Bravo!! That my friend says it all...

 

[Leopejo]

Was there ever a feud between Armstrong and Simoni? Or did they stay too apart to fight (Tour and Giro respectively)?

I'm asking as this morning Gibo was very nice to Armstrong:

- Yesterday Armstrong lost 15 seconds. Is he still in contention?
- Let's hope he goes well today. You know, there are some fans who follow the Giro for him. He has brought much media attention, which is good for the Giro.

 

[BigBoat]

Boat - As you know removing your own blood and re-injecting it is useful, but intrusive, and you have a down time after the withdrawl.

15 minutes down time max with your own blood.. In a healthy person their up within 30 minutes ready to ride.

I dont know that they are even using the Dynepo anymore... Just blood doping with their own blood. Thing is.. the epo test is sensitive to Dynepo...

ANd there are of course other 02 carriers that work well. Astana's whole saga here with Kloden, and others will be interesting to watch unfold!

 

[tifosa]

Was there ever a feud between Armstrong and Simoni? Or did they stay too apart to fight (Tour and Giro respectively)?

I'm asking as this morning Gibo was very nice to Armstrong:

It's Filippo Simeoni, not Gilberto Simoni that was the target of Armstrong's wrath which was publicly demonstrated for all to see during Stage 18 of the '04 TdF.

Not coincidentally, Armstrong, Simoni, and Simeoni have all been the recipient of positive doping controls during their careers (no matter how they were resolved). However, it's Armstrong who seems to protest the loudest and longest over any mention of doping by anyone inside or outside of cycling.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I thought the known samples belong to riders tested after the prologue because all the prologue samples were positive. They were Armstrong, Beltran, Hamburger, and Castelblanco (sp?). Did I miss other samples being linked to Zulle and Olano?

Well, you may have caught me assuming. I'm going to have to read through the interview again. But it was my impression that he said the top three riders in the prologue were positive. These were Lance, Zulle and Olano. But I could very well be wrong and just assumed that. Good catch either way on your part.

I dont know that they are even using the Dynepo anymore... Just blood doping with their own blood. Thing is.. the epo test is sensitive to Dynepo...

ANd there are of course other 02 carriers that work well. Astana's whole saga here with Kloden, and others will be interesting to watch unfold!

I believe Hemopure has to be being used, though it's in trials. It's the next generation beyond Dynepo. But I would venture to guess any of these can likely be microdosed and be almost impossible to catch. What I meant about autologous blood doping is that there is a down time after removal. No such thing with the O2 carriers. Of course, as I said, God only knows the true benefits, and side-effects, of Repoxygen and stem-cell doping.

 

[Leopejo]

As there is no neutral Lance thread (is there?), I put it here.

Someone is getting old, I fear. Not because he loses on the climbs, but because he sees danger and complains everywhere, including many Giro stages.

His post-stage Twittering:

Done with stage 6. Uh...wow. That was the craziest last 30k I've ever seen. Long, fast decent at 80k (50pmh) plus then a tight circuit.

Not sure that's necessary really. Tomorrow is the same kind of finish. It's bike racing, not moto gp..

At one point today we reached 110kph. That's almost 70 mph. CRAZY!

Haven't we seen more dangerous Tour stages in his times?

 

[Bala Verde]

Haven't we seen more dangerous Tour stages in his times?

hmm I thought he loved to ride on the edge....

Anyhow, I said it before, I find it surprising that no one seems to be criticizing his 'explanations for "poor" performance'. In this year's TDU he stated after a stage in which he was in the lead group, that being in competition is so much better, then training by yourself. He even said that it's impossible to put out those wattages during a training ride. Yesterday Fondriest apparently agreed that having been 'out of competition' for so long, has had affected his endurance/stamina...

This is from/about the man who throughout his career was never in contention anywhere. His meticulous preparation for that one stage race in the world found place on his hometrainer, pushing those 500+ watts...

 

[franciep10]

Firstly props to dimspace for creating this thread and I have one suggestion anytime we want talk about lance let's just put it here or the lance love thread. Now he has been poor in this Giro but I think he'll be better in the last week. Now the only problem I have with Lance hate is livestrong now one of my best friends was diagnosed with Prostate Cancer last year, and at first he was distraught then he contacted Livestrong and they put him through to some of the best daoctors and when he was having financial trouble then they helped him out with his bills and the only thing they asked him for is to give 2 speeches, so while I dislike LA i respect what he has done outside of cycling, the reason I brought this up is because today my friend and I took his first bike ride in over a year. so with cycling screw you lance but outside of it keep it up good job.

 

[Anonymous]

Firstly props to dimspace for creating this thread and I have one suggestion anytime we want talk about lance let's just put it here or the lance love thread. Now he has been poor in this Giro but I think he'll be better in the last week. Now the only problem I have with Lance hate is livestrong now one of my best friends was diagnosed with Prostate Cancer last year, and at first he was distraught then he contacted Livestrong and they put him through to some of the best daoctors and when he was having financial trouble then they helped him out with his bills and the only thing they asked him for is to give 2 speeches, so while I dislike LA i respect what he has done outside of cycling, the reason I brought this up is because today my friend and I took his first bike ride in over a year. so with cycling screw you lance but outside of it keep it up good job.

good to hear they are doing ok..

i think a good point as well, whatever you think of lance there is no doubting what the livestrong foundation does.. yes, maybe like most places they could do more, maybe they couldnt.. but its a compelling argument to leave them out of the discussioins..

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Cool story Franciep10. Glad your friend is doing well. A real hero.

As to Lance himself:

hmm I thought he loved to ride on the edge....

The one thing that still bugs me about that Tour is that everyone was up in arms whether Jan really waited for Lance when he crashed on Luz Ardiden, when it appeared Jan did indeed slow up - much to Jan's detriment because of his climbing style. And yet, when Beloki crashed on stage 12 (pictured), Lance didn't even glance over his shoulder to see what had happened, let alone wait to see if Beloki was okay. He just took that short cut. Not that anyone else waited, they didn't, that's cycling. But Jan was heavily scrutinized, while Lance was given every benefit and every chance in the world in that Tour, and even then, had Jan not crashed on that ITT, Lance would have, and really should have, lost.

 

[rapistwit]

Cool story Franciep10. Glad your friend is doing well. A real hero.

As to Lance himself:



The one thing that still bugs me about that Tour is that everyone was up in arms whether Jan really waited for Lance when he crashed on Luz Ardiden, when it appeared Jan did indeed slow up - much to Jan's detriment because of his climbing style. And yet, when Beloki crashed on stage 12 (pictured), Lance didn't even glance over his shoulder to see what had happened, let alone wait to see if Beloki was okay. He just took that short cut. Not that anyone else waited, they didn't, that's cycling. But Jan was heavily scrutinized, while Lance was given every benefit and every chance in the world in that Tour, and even then, had Jan not crashed on that ITT, Lance would have, and really should have, lost.

That's nonsense.
The two crashes are completely different. Beloki crashed out of the race while Armstrong did not when Ullrich "waited". Besides I belive Armstrong "waited" for Jan when he crashed too.
As far as the TT is concerned. Ullrich wasn't gaining squat on Lance when he crashed.

 

[BigBoat]

hmm I thought he loved to ride on the edge....

This is from/about the man who throughout his career was never in contention anywhere. His meticulous preparation for that one stage race in the world found place on his hometrainer, pushing those 500+ watts...

And un-doped lower conditioned Lance during the winter would have an FTP 330-340 tops... Maybe less. His 5 minute VO2 max repeats would be 370-390.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That's nonsense.
The two crashes are completely different. Beloki crashed out of the race while Armstrong did not when Ullrich "waited".

How would Armstrong have known that? He didn't even look back to see. Belocki went down, and Lance rode right on by. Singular focus on winning, as usual.

Watch 2003 again, Jan was indeed gaining on Lance time and went out at a blistering pace.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

This guy had the right idea. And Lance convinced people to laugh at him.

Hecklers bad, omerta good.

 

[franciep10]

How would Armstrong have known that? He didn't even look back to see. Belocki went down, and Lance rode right on by. Singular focus on winning, as usual.

Watch 2003 again, Jan was indeed gaining on Lance time and went out at a blistering pace.

I don't remember the details about Jan, but as I remember Belokki went down with Lance right behind him in the yellow jersey and he had to cut through some field, so as I saw it if he had not detoured he would've fell.

 

[franciep10]

This guy had the right idea. And Lance convinced people to laugh at him.

Hecklers bad, omerta good.

that's funny but not a good image of our sport.

 

[rapistwit]

How would Armstrong have known that? He didn't even look back to see. Belocki went down, and Lance rode right on by. Singular focus on winning, as usual.

Watch 2003 again, Jan was indeed gaining on Lance time and went out at a blistering pace.

Did you even watch that? Armstrong was trying to avoid being wiped out.
Sheez. His bike handling was pretty amazing. To snipe at him for not looking back at Beloki is petty.

 

[Returnofthewolf]

And un-doped lower conditioned Lance during the winter would have an FTP 330-340 tops... Maybe less. His 5 minute VO2 max repeats would be 370-390.

You are straight trippin homeboy. IMnsHO, WINTER FTP = 5.1 w/kg or 380 watts/ 75kg. His FTP right now is prob. around 5.4, and by july it will be 5.6-5.7 or 410w/72.5kg.

and remember, garbage in - garbage out.