The pedaling technique thread

[FrankDay]

If you can show that that was the only variable that changed from previous attempts to medal at a World Championship. Where did he place the year before. As equally an un-testable hypothesis is that the time he wasted on Gimmickcranks cost him a Gold or Silver medal.

Or

I had a rider take a Silver medal in the Pursuit at Master's Worlds one year in one of the numerous 5 year age bands for men and women. Does that make my methods better because Phil only got the Bronze?

His report is his report. After 10 years of serious competition he seems to have been quite positively impressed with the changes he saw. My guess is the previous year when his pursuit was 2 mph slower he wasn't anywhere near any podium, let alone a worlds podium but who knows. Like I said, his report is his report. Thanks for being so kind as to give me the opportunity to again let others know about his experience.

Now, back to the issue at hand, calling Dr. Coggan …

 

[FrankDay]

Well isn't that convenient.

If you guys weren't such **** heads he would have shared it with the world. I have seen it (as has Dr. Chung) and there are no repeating sections as before and it includes coming back down the mountain. Anyhow, that file has nothing to do with any of his improvement claims. All it did was document the ride he did with the person who claimed he was the real deal when he rode away from him and some of you who simply couldn't believe he was as good as he said he was asked for documentation that he did more than ride around the corner out of sight of this person and then to have pretended to have ridden all the way to the top before coming back and meeting him half way up. Twist the data however you need to to make your point.

Calling Dr. Coggan …

 

[CoachFergie]

His report is his report. After 10 years of serious competition he seems to have been quite positively impressed with the changes he saw.

So what, I don't see anything special or unique in those results or performances.

My guess is the previous year when his pursuit was 2 mph slower he wasn't anywhere near any podium, let alone a worlds podium but who knows.

You guess? We are not surprised.

Like I said, his report is his report. Thanks for being so kind as to give me the opportunity to again let others know about his experience.

And his report is pretty insignificant in the scheme of things and fails to provide any real evidence. Just gives me a lot of concern for the quality of engineers with people like yourself, Phil and the MIT (no less) chap who don't have a clue how to measure performance and don't understand the difference between performances and results.

Otherwise my riders Silver medal at Masters Worlds in Pursuit is conclusive evidence that my methods are better than yours because Phil only got a Bronze

 

[CoachFergie]

If you guys weren't such **** heads he would have shared it with the world.

Which avoids the question of how it got "Doctored" in the first place.

I have seen it (as has Dr. Chung) and there are no repeating sections as before and it includes coming back down the mountain. Anyhow, that file has nothing to do with any of his improvement claims.

Well be a good boy and share these performance improvements. I mean we have discredited Phil's claims, your MIT (no less) students claims so your Spanish chap should get his shot.

All it did was document the ride he did with the person who claimed he was the real deal when he rode away from him and some of you who simply couldn't believe he was as good as he said he was asked for documentation that he did more than ride around the corner out of sight of this person and then to have pretended to have ridden all the way to the top before coming back and meeting him half way up. Twist the data however you need to to make your point.

Well, someone felt they needed to "Doctor" the file! I wonder who is that desperate

 

[CoachFergie]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.bicycles.tech/CrFv9kXmL3k/discussion

Amusing that no one believed Phil back then or took his conclusions seriously.

 

[CoachFergie]

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily 1h
@marcopinotti @cyclingpro How often do you calibrate your SRM?

Marco Pinotti ‏@marcopinotti 39m
@ammattipyoraily @cyclingpro me personally, never, I suppose someone does it at least once a year

Outstanding, well there is another person in the cycling world who I won't be giving a lot of credit. Clearly not called the Professor as a compliment.

 

[sciguy]

If you guys weren't such **** heads he would have shared it with the world. I have seen it (as has Dr. Chung) and there are no repeating sections as before and it includes coming back down the mountain.

Frank,

While he did receive the file I'm sorry to break it to you but Rob never opened the second file. He was too burned out be the initial fiasco to get himself embroiled again. You make it sound as if he looked at an validated the file. This was not the case.

Hugh

 

[CoachFergie]

Frank,

While he did receive the file I'm sorry to break it to you but Rob never opened the second file. He was too burned out be the initial fiasco to get himself embroiled again. You make it sound as if he looked at an validated the file. This was not the case.

Hugh

Also no response to why the file was clearly DOCTORED in the first place, sections of repeated data. Someone a little too desperate to prove his point!

 

[CoachFergie]

It gets better...

Cycling Pro ‏@cyclingpro 1h
@marcopinotti @ammattipyoraily well, can we imagine that the team sky's srm are NOT calibrated?

8:15 AM - 27 Sep 13 · Details
Marco Pinotti ‏@marcopinotti 1h
@cyclingpro @ammattipyoraily yes we can

Ah well I would expect that from someone who think 45min a week in the off season using a Gimmickcrank has an influence on his performance. One thing we do know is that in 35 years time when he hits 10,000 hours of riding one his performance will be amazing. Perhaps he might win a bronze medal at Masters Worlds himself!

 

[FrankDay]

Frank,

While he did receive the file I'm sorry to break it to you but Rob never opened the second file. He was too burned out be the initial fiasco to get himself embroiled again. You make it sound as if he looked at an validated the file. This was not the case.

Hugh

I don't make it sound like anything other than he was sent the file (or so I was told). We were both asked to not share it with anyone else. Dr. Chung had the ability to determine whether this file had been tampered with. He chose not to because, I suppose, there was no purpose in doing so (or, if it were clean, it might have destroyed the obvious bias he had against the man and he would have to revise his opinion). I did, at least, open it and see that the previous issues were gone although I don't have the forensic capability to prove the file untampered.

There were no reasons for him to have altered this file as it wouldn't have proven anything other than he rode all the way to the top of the mountain because people complained that this couldn't be confirmed since he rode away so fast from the observer that it couldn't be confirmed so he sent the file to prove this. His power and VO2max improvements (17% VO2max, 39% power after 13 months as I remember) that got everyone so hot and bothered to start with were obtained through testing by a Spanish federation coach. He eventually concluded that the alteration of the hill climb power file was done by a coworker (who had access to the database where the file was stored) as a practical joke.

 

[CoachFergie]

I did, at least, open it and see that the previous issues were gone although I don't have the forensic capability to prove the file untampered.

Previous issues. You mean a file that had sections of data repeating itself like it had been DOCTORED.

His power and VO2max improvements (17% VO2max, 39% power after 13 months as I remember) that got everyone so hot and bothered to start with were obtained through testing by a Spanish federation coach.

What were the before and after results for both VO2max and Power?

Sorry if we don't take a pathological liar at his word but just reporting the claimed improvements, especially from memory, is not adequate. Be a good boy and let us know what tests were used to determine VO2max, what equipment was used for gas analysis and power measurement if the same procedures were used in both tests, what power tests were used to conclude a 39% improvement in power and with due respect to Professor Pinotti what type of calibration was used on the power meter.

Otherwise the claims are as useful as saying a rider improved their 2000m pursuit speed by 2-3mph in a season or that a rider went a hour faster in a race from one year to the next (just casually forgetting to mention the race was run in reverse, was shorter and in much different weather conditions).

He eventually concluded that the alteration of the hill climb power file was done by a coworker (who had access to the database where the file was stored) as a practical joke.

What an amazingly specific sense of humour that chap must have. Or is this just the Spanish way of saying "pull my finger"?

 

[FrankDay]

Previous issues. You mean a file that had sections of data repeating itself like it had been DOCTORED.



What were the before and after results for both VO2max and Power?

Sorry if we don't take a pathological liar at his word but just reporting the claimed improvements, especially from memory, is not adequate. Be a good boy and let us know what tests were used to determine VO2max, what equipment was used for gas analysis and power measurement if the same procedures were used in both tests, what power tests were used to conclude a 39% improvement in power and with due respect to Professor Pinotti what type of calibration was used on the power meter.

Otherwise the claims are as useful as saying a rider improved their 2000m pursuit speed by 2-3mph in a season or that a rider went a hour faster in a race from one year to the next (just casually forgetting to mention the race was run in reverse, was shorter and in much different weather conditions).



What an amazingly specific sense of humour that chap must have. Or is this just the Spanish way of saying "pull my finger"?

Wow, just wow. Now he is a pathological liar. It is stuff like this that caused him to give up even trying to have a dialogue about his experience.

Calling Dr. Coggan, can we get back to your issue.

 

[CoachFergie]

Now who is hiding from answering questions?

Wasn't the Spanish chap I was referring to as a pathological liar.

Now be a good boy and stop hiding behind your strawman questions to Andy provide us with some real data to support the Spaniards claimed improvements.

 

[FrankDay]

Wasn't the Spanish chap I was referring to as a pathological liar.

Oh, so I am the pathlogical liar. LOL.

Calling Dr. Coggan. Your minion is out of control and you haven't answered the question posed to you yet.

 

[CoachFergie]

Calling Dr. Coggan. Your minion is out of control and you haven't answered the question posed to you yet.

A series of logical fallacies is not a question.

 

[coapman]

Still caught up in this delusion that it is increasing force that one needs to do to improve the pedalling stroke. That is easy, just mash harder. Cycling is an endurance event. Even a flying 200m is an endurance event as it is ridden at 85-95% of ones maximal power so even these riders can just mash harder. But it comes at the cost of endurance. So the question is not how do I mash harder as this is easy. It is how can I sustain my mashing for the duration of the event.

Apart from structured interval training there is not much you can do because mashing is a less effective and inefficient way of powering the cranks. Ideal for sprinting but sprints are of short duration. Compare the pedalling of these two TT stomping mashers with the pedalling of Anquetil that I posted a few pages back and while you may not notice it these are the facts. The world c'ship TT competition was held last Wednesday on the ideal flat non technical smooth TT course for the perfect TT pedalling technique but nobody was able to take full advantage of this course. Over an hour's pedalling a masher spends 20 minutes applying minimal torque, 20 min. applying maximal force with only on average 50% torque return and 20 min. applying maximal force with on average > 90% torque return. Using Anquetil's method, a rider spends only two and a half minutes applying minimal torque, only 10 min. applying maximal force with 50% torque return and 47 1/2 min applying maximal force with an average > 90% torque return. Maybe that will enable you to figure out how much more powerful the Anquetil technique is over mashing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQYQ-E&feature=related

 

[CoachFergie]

Apart from structured interval training there is not much you can do because mashing is a less effective and inefficient way of powering the cranks. Ideal for sprinting but sprints are of short duration. Compare the pedalling of these two TT stomping mashers with the pedalling of Anquetil that I posted a few pages back and while you may not notice it these are the facts. The world c'ship TT competition was held last Wednesday on the ideal flat non technical smooth TT course for the perfect TT pedalling technique but nobody was able to take full advantage of this course. Over an hour's pedalling a masher spends 20 minutes applying minimal torque, 20 min. applying maximal force with only on average 50% torque return and 20 min. applying maximal force with on average > 90% torque return. Using Anquetil's method, a rider spends only two and a half minutes applying minimal torque, only 10 min. applying maximal force with 50% torque return and 47 1/2 min applying maximal force with an average > 90% torque return. Maybe that will enable you to figure out how much more powerful the Anquetil technique is over mashing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQYQ-E&feature=related

Well of course Tony Martin could have almost doubled his power because 52.9kph for 56km which would have placed him 6th in the TTT is such a crap ride

And of course if one could almost double their power with a change in pedal technique then one could use ANY power meter to test this and prove himself right.

 

[coapman]

Well of course Tony Martin could have almost doubled his power because 52.9kph for 56km which would have placed him 6th in the TTT is such a crap ride

And of course if one could almost double their power with a change in pedal technique then one could use ANY power meter to test this and prove himself right.

Once again you are missing the all important point which is, it is a far more effective way of applying sustainable high power in TT's.

 

[CoachFergie]

Once again you are missing the all important point which is, it is a far more effective way of applying sustainable high power in TT's.

And it should be easy to prove with ANY power meter!

 

[marcopinotti]

Outstanding, well there is another person in the cycling world who I won't be giving a lot of credit. Clearly not called the Professor as a compliment.

I said I never calibrated personally, I can notice when there is a 20w shift in power after 5 pedal stroke, so if it would be to calibrate I will ask to do it. I've been riding with SRM for 8 yrs. for about 30.000kms. Legs know what 300 watts feel like and know the difference between 280 and 300.

 

[CoachFergie]

I said I never calibrated personally, I can notice when there is a 20w shift in power after 5 pedal stroke, so if it would be to calibrate I will ask to do it. I've been riding with SRM for 8 yrs. for about 30.000kms. Legs know what 300 watts feel like and know the difference between 280 and 300.

Aren't you supposed to be racing right now?

 

[Netserk]

Aren't you supposed to be racing right now?

He rode the ITT, not the RR.

 

[CoachFergie]

He rode the ITT, not the RR.

Missing an awesome race.

I am sure anyone could feel if a their SRM was 20 watts out.

But when 10 watts = 60-90sec in a 40km TT it makes it quite crucial if one is going to bother riding and racing with a Power Meter to ensure it is regularly calibrated.

The BikeNZ Track Guys do a static calibration every day they train.

 

[FrankDay]

Missing an awesome race.

I am sure anyone could feel if a their SRM was 20 watts out.

But when 10 watts = 60-90sec in a 40km TT it makes it quite crucial if one is going to bother riding and racing with a Power Meter to ensure it is regularly calibrated.

The BikeNZ Track Guys do a static calibration every day they train.

I guess that is all cool but to what end? Is there any evidence that doing that calibration (or even having a power meter) makes a race (or training) outcome difference? You have stated before that it doesn't so why do they do it? Anyhow, since this is a pedaling technique thread you can move your answer to the power meter thread and we can go back to waiting for Dr. Coggan to show up and clarify his pedaling technique comment that on the face of it seems pure BS.

 

[CoachFergie]

I guess that is all cool but to what end? Is there any evidence that doing that calibration (or even having a power meter) makes a race (or training) outcome difference?

Only to the utterly stupid who believe that measuring an outcome has an influence on the outcome.

You have stated before that it doesn't so why do they do it?

Why measure anything?

Anyhow, since this is a pedaling technique thread you can move your answer to the power meter thread and we can go back to waiting for Dr. Coggan to show up and clarify his pedaling technique comment that on the face of it seems pure BS.

Well seeing someone made a claim that training with an independent crank led to a 40% improvement in power and another person made a claim that in a TT (this should interest Marco) that using his pedal technique one could almost double their power then a well calibrated power meter sounds like an excellent tool to measure those claims.

What would you suggest Frank, a comparison of times from a race a year apart even if the course direction changes, is shorter and has totally different weather conditions or perhaps average speeds in a 2000m pursuit on an outdoor track without taking into account wind speed, wind direction, riding line, pacing, equipment used, competition etc. Or say if one did use such an improvement not comparing it to say 2000m IP times over a season that show similar if not better improvements. Or how about the fact a rider won a Bronze medal at Masters Worlds? But does that mean my rider that won a Silver in the IP at Masters Worlds 7 years later is better???

I guess some people have something to hide and fear the measurement ability of a well calibrated power meter.