The Powercrank Thread

[CoachFergie]

I don't need to smoke to say it's bad for people.

Good thing we have research to tell us smoking is bad for us and that Powercranks are a waste of time. Hilarious they could only get 3 people to complete the trial. No probs, lots of real research showing Franks claims are just fabricated.

 

[Tapeworm]

Anyhow, it isn't wild speculation as I ran the tests and those are the results I got. Implausible perhaps to those with tiny imaginations and a fear of trying something different.

"
I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles"

 

[CoachFergie]

"
I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles"

Oh that's good. Well played!!!

 

[FrankDay]

A comparison TT using regular cranks and PowerCranks by a world Champ getting ready for RAAM. The literalists will probably say he doesn't know what he is talking about and the PC's slowed him down. LOL link here

I have been waiting 2weeks to do a comparative test on the 11.5mile hilly tt course on the PowerCranks Frank Day and could wait no longer. Last week was heavy rain, this week wasn't much better.
2weeks ago in good weather I got 27mins 23secs. Tonight I only raced maybe 75% if that, freewheeled some of the time, took it very carefully around corners as it was raining and the roads were extremely wet and dangerously slippy. I did 27mins 46secs. I could have easily gone 2 or 3mins faster in good conditions. Quite simply the PC's are faster, harder work but faster. If you don't believe me get a pair and try them yourself. Type in the code 'Hoppo2014' and you will get discount and support my RAAM. You can't lose

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

A comparison TT using regular cranks and PowerCranks by a world Champ getting ready for RAAM. The literalists will probably say he doesn't know what he is talking about and the PC's slowed him down. LOL link here

So he went ~1% slower, but claims to have ridden at only 75%, in different weather conditions, is a promoter of the product (he provide discount codes for the product) and we are supposed to believe that's evidence they work?

Uh-huh.

What nonsense.

 

[42x16ss]

A comparison TT using regular cranks and PowerCranks by a world Champ getting ready for RAAM. The literalists will probably say he doesn't know what he is talking about and the PC's slowed him down. LOL link here

No, those who understand what you have posted will see it as a blatant product placement for a sponsor and to raise $$ for RAAM.

 

[CoachFergie]

No, those who understand what you have posted will see it as a blatant product placement for a sponsor and to raise $$ for RAAM.

AKA spam. Report it!

 

[FrankDay]

So he went ~1% slower, but claims to have ridden at only 75%, in different weather conditions, is a promoter of the product (he provide discount codes for the product) and we are supposed to believe that's evidence they work?

Uh-huh.

What nonsense.

Nope. It is simply an anecdotal report regarding a comparative test done by a WC with a relatively brief history on the product. Certainly not proof of anything. Simply a report. I had considered leaving out the code but since I provided a link (where the code was) I thought that might look "sneaky" so I included the entire report.

 

[CoachFergie]

The mods have removed the spam!

 

[FrankDay]

Another worthless anecdote

By applying my PowerCranks rotational balance training while off the Expresso Bike I was able to better my personal best ride while (ON) this Expresso bike 7mile race by 56 seconds! To put this into perspective...this ride was paced with a 400watt pacer and currently ranks 5th out of over 2000 global riders....

 

[FrankDay]

This post will mean nothing to those of you who have never seriously trained on PowerCranks. To those of you who have I think I had a little insight today that might help you.

I am training for a 112 mile effort the end of June (Challenge Atlantic City). As you know, one of the issues with PowerCranks is increased pressure of the bum on the saddle. I had a normal bike fit with the knees slightly bent at BDC and was finding that when coasting (with both legs down) that on longer rides I would use that time to try to unweight a bit from the saddle to give the bum a break. But, when doing this, I could feel the stress in my quads because they had to be in a small isometric contraction. I could feel the muscles getting tired when coasting. Today I raised the saddle about 1.5 cm to allow me to "lock my knees" when coasting at BDC but still keep some contact with the saddle and a flat foot at BDC. "Locking the knees" at BDC allows the Quads to relax while still unweighting the saddle a bit. It made a huge difference to how the quads felt and I averaged about 1 mph faster (17.5 to 18.5 mph) than typical for this loop I ride. (I didn't have power on the bike at the time, sorry folks.) Is it because I was a little more aero because of the higher seat? I don't think so. I think it was because my quads were better rested/recovered so I could generate more power when pedaling. Not sure if this would work on regular cranks (where both legs are not down when coasting) but something to consider for those of you who ride PowerCranks and are looking for a further boost.

 

[sciguy]

Glad to see you're putting some miles on. You'll be doing well to average 18.5 for Challenge Atlantic City.

I laughed when you wrote the following. It's tough to imagine this as very aero.

I had a normal bike fit with the knees slightly bent at BDC and was finding that when coasting (with both legs down) that on longer rides I would use that time to try to unweight a bit from the saddle to give the bum a break. .

It wasn't too long ago when you wrote-

And, I simply don't understand why any saddle prevents or facilitates someone getting into a good aero position. The saddle to me is a comfort issue, not a positioning issue.

My thinking is that if you can't stand to sit on the saddle for hours on end then you'll have one heck of a time staying aero for the duration of an IM. There won't be too much time to coast at Atlantic city.

How about using the Icrank next time so you can provide us some power data

Hugh

 

[FrankDay]

My thinking is that if you can't stand to sit on the saddle for hours on end then you'll have one heck of a time staying aero for the duration of an IM. There won't be too much time to coast at Atlantic city.

As I said, the post won't mean much to those who haven't spent anytime training on the PowerCranks. The problem, of course, is when one is completely unweighting (or actually pulling up some) on the backstroke this puts more weight on the saddle than when one is only partially unweighting on the upstroke. As with anything, this takes a substantial period of adaptation. No one goes from riding 10-20 miles to riding 112 miles easily, however they pedal. Anyhow, the way I pedal I take relatively frequent (30-90 second) but brief (5 second) breaks to pedaling. It is just what feels natural to me. Probably because I don't have the base in my 70 yo muscles to pedal constantly at high power for hours on end nor do I have the calluses in my bum yet to put 200 lbs on my bum (on a bike saddle no less) for 6 hours without a little break.

How about using the Icrank next time so you can provide us some power data

Hugh

If I had the data I would like to see it. However, in my experience, what one does everyday is usually pretty predictable, especially when it is a loop. A sudden 1 mph improvement is remarkable, whatever the reason, which is what prompted the observation.

 

[elapid]

However, in my experience, what one does everyday is usually pretty predictable, especially when it is a loop. A sudden 1 mph improvement is remarkable, whatever the reason, which is what prompted the observation.

Go to the Cervelo forum. There are lots of people there new to riding Cervelos who marvel at their new bike and how they are 1-2mph quicker over the same course compared to their old bike. Means nothing when variable conditions and the placebo effect are not accounted for. You need a PM for this kind of thing, Frank. Objective data.

 

[FrankDay]

Go to the Cervelo forum. There are lots of people there new to riding Cervelos who marvel at their new bike and how they are 1-2mph quicker over the same course compared to their old bike. Means nothing when variable conditions and the placebo effect are not accounted for. You need a PM for this kind of thing, Frank. Objective data.

You guys are crazy. You seem to think the only way to measure improvement is with a power meter. A pm might be useful for discriminating as to what the improvement I saw is due to (I did mention it would be nice to have that data) but it isn't necessary to have a pm to measure or notice improvement. For example, I could be faster because of improved aerodynamics and a PM would be useless to pick up that improvement.

Anyhow, I have enough time with this new bike to know what I do with it. In fact, 3 days ago I took off the Zipp 404's and put on training wheels so I doubt the improvement I saw today was due to the bike or my "new" wheels, regardless of what is being posted on the Cervelo forums. As near as I can tell the most I am going to be able to get out of this new bike and wheels (the 404's) is about 0.5 mph, if that.

 

[CoachFergie]

Go to the Cervelo forum. There are lots of people there new to riding Cervelos who marvel at their new bike and how they are 1-2mph quicker over the same course compared to their old bike. Means nothing when variable conditions and the placebo effect are not accounted for. You need a PM for this kind of thing, Frank. Objective data.

Good thing we can even use a power meter to measure changes in aerodynamics to determine why we may be going faster.

Paging Alex Simmons!!!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

For example, I could be faster because of improved aerodynamics and a PM would be useless to pick up that improvement.

What?

If you go faster but power hasn't changed (say), then clearly something on the energy demand side of the equation changed, and that's most likely a reduction in air resistance.

With a little more information (e.g. weather conditions) you can then assess whether it's likely to be due to environmental factors and/or an aerodynamics improvement.

This is most definitely the sort of thing a PM can help you assess.

 

[FrankDay]

What?

If you go faster but power hasn't changed (say), then clearly something on the energy demand side of the equation changed, and that's most likely a reduction in air resistance.

With a little more information (e.g. weather conditions) you can then assess whether it's likely to be due to environmental factors and/or an aerodynamics improvement.

This is most definitely the sort of thing a PM can help you assess.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

The problem is, of course, to those of you who seem to be pushing the pm as some sort of "gotta have" tool because of all it can do is that this improvement occurred without using a pm to help me get there or needing a pm to know it happened. While it is an interesting intellectual exercise to be able to break down exactly how and where these improvements occurred it makes zero difference to the racer because the racer will take them wherever the occurred. Until you can point out that having a power meter actually helps the rider to make improvements that they cannot do without one I will continue to point out that the fact this has never been shown whenever you folks seem to be pushing it as some magical tool for whatever reason.

It is incredible that I make an observation that is pretty specific to PowerCranks and you guys, who don't understand it at all, are here going off topic about power meters. Everyone knows that a power meter could answer the question as to whether the improvement I saw was due to a power increase (which I surmised, I gave the reason why I thought so) or an aero improvement or some combination. That doesn't detract from the fact that the change I made resulted in a surprising speed improvement, one larger than I could have ever predicted, which was the reason for the post. This information might be useful to others who train/race with PowerCranks. Of course, since you (and your friends) have never used them (perhaps never even tried them) one has to wonder why you are here commenting about power meters instead.

 

[sciguy]

Anyhow, the way I pedal I take relatively frequent (30-90 second) but brief (5 second) breaks to pedaling.

Just to clarify, you're taking ~5 second breaks every 30 to 90 seconds? I've seen that pattern regularly when riding with untrained cyclists as well as folks near the end of an IM who are pretty well toasted from going out way too hard for their fitness level.

Hugh

 

[FrankDay]

What?

If you go faster but power hasn't changed (say), then clearly something on the energy demand side of the equation changed, and that's most likely a reduction in air resistance.

With a little more information (e.g. weather conditions) you can then assess whether it's likely to be due to environmental factors and/or an aerodynamics improvement.

This is most definitely the sort of thing a PM can help you assess.

No, the power meter alone cannot pick up improvements due to aerodynamics. If the power doesn't change that is all the power meter knows. One needs a different metric to pick up aero improvements, something like speed also. So, yes, the power meter can help one to understand why one is faster (power or aero) but does knowing that bit of trivia make one whit of difference when it comes to racing? No. One doesn't need a power meter to know one is improving, a stopwatch works fine for that.

 

[FrankDay]

Just to clarify, you're taking ~5 second breaks every 30 to 90 seconds? I've seen that pattern regularly when riding with untrained cyclists as well as folks near the end of an IM who are pretty well toasted from either going out way too hard for their fitness level.

Hugh

Your point? Anyhow, if you analyze your own pedaling pattern on the road I'll bet you find yourself coasting much more than you think you do. Around every corner, for instance, whenever slowing (for whatever reason), etc.

 

[CoachFergie]

What?

If you go faster but power hasn't changed (say), then clearly something on the energy demand side of the equation changed, and that's most likely a reduction in air resistance.

With a little more information (e.g. weather conditions) you can then assess whether it's likely to be due to environmental factors and/or an aerodynamics improvement.

This is most definitely the sort of thing a PM can help you assess.

One of my riders did a power meter based test of different riding positions, clothing and body positioning with Alex in Sydney and it was fascinating to see how the meter could discriminate between such subtle differences.

What was even cooler was being able to see what the difference was to estimated times from each change compared to the baseline position.

No other form of measurement will help you to determine why changes in performance are really happening. Still staggering to that some people believe a stopwatch can tell you the same

 

[CoachFergie]

Just to clarify, you're taking ~5 second breaks every 30 to 90 seconds? I've seen that pattern regularly when riding with untrained cyclists as well as folks near the end of an IM who are pretty well toasted from either going out way too hard for their fitness level.

Interesting

Riders often train on a fixed gear bicycle where one of the advantages is that one can not coast.

Also interesting that Aldo Sassi had Cadel Evans do a lot of fixed gear work the year he won the Tour de France.

I used a power meter on my track bike for road training and compared to similar rides on my road bike always achieved more work on the track in similar conditions.

Of course such one off experiments are pretty meaningless in the scheme of things but would be interesting to compare a group doing fixed gear training and normal gear training over a 4-5 week period to see if there were any changes in performance in their power.

 

[sciguy]

Your point? Anyhow, if you analyze your own pedaling pattern on the road I'll bet you find yourself coasting much more than you think you do. Around every corner, for instance, whenever slowing (for whatever reason), etc.

As a rabid long term power meter user I've had the opportunity to look at my pedaling patten for the past 20 years and by gosh I hardly coast at all. Now that I'm in my 60s I'll let off the gas when the down grade helps me hit 40+mph and there is the occasional stop sign or light but coast through turns?????? Who does that unless they're 180s? A typical 3 hour ride for me will yield on the order of 3 minutes coasting time.

I'd be a bit careful raising your saddle so you can lock out your legs. A high saddle can irritate the heck out of you IT band as well as decrease seat comfort.....oh that's what you're already lacking....hmmmmmmm. I'd have thought you'd already have a cast iron **** after all the years you've spent on PCs.

One other problem created by hyper extending an cyclist's leg is the reduction of their ability to roll their pelvis forward due to increase tension on their hamstrings. The upshot this reduced anterior pelvic tilt being a more upright and probably less aero position. Short cranks do not alleviate this problem as it occurs at the bottom of the stroke.

Oh, My point- After all the time you've spent talking about using more muscles for more of the pedal stroke suddenly you seem to be advocating not even pedaling for a significant portion of the time and coasting instead.
One would think that strategy might knock the heck out of your 40% improvement???

Hugh

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

While it is an interesting intellectual exercise to be able to break down exactly how and where these improvements occurred it makes zero difference to the racer because the racer will take them wherever the occurred. Until you can point out that having a power meter actually helps the rider to make improvements that they cannot do without one I will continue to point out that the fact this has never been shown whenever you folks seem to be pushing it as some magical tool for whatever reason.

It is very helpful to understand why an improvement happens, because it means you can focus your attention on the right things to improve further, and not waste time/effort/money/resources on the things that don't, or hinder progress. Indeed you might realise that a small net gain was the sum of a bigger gain and a smaller loss, meaning one can address the loss and perform even better.

It is incredible that I make an observation that is pretty specific to PowerCranks and you guys, who don't understand it at all, are here going off topic about power meters. Everyone knows that a power meter could answer the question as to whether the improvement I saw was due to a power increase (which I surmised, I gave the reason why I thought so) or an aero improvement or some combination.

I'm only responding to your comment about power meters. I didn't raise it.