The Powercrank Thread

Page 23 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
coapman said:
The problem with this is, the most effective change occurs in your down stroke torque which decreases by more than you can apply at top/bottom/back of your circular stroke, as demonstrated by Coyle's research (circular v mashing). How does the pedalling of a PC'er who returns to standard cranks differ from that of the circular pedaller. Now that you have your second generation PM, during steady flat road pedalling try to apply maximal torque at bottom, upstroke and top of your circular stroke and you will see what effect this has on your down stroke torque.
No, from an energy/power perspective an extra 1 lbf through 10 degrees on the backstroke (or (reducing the negative on the upstroke 1 lbf) is worth exactly the same as an extra 1 lbf through 10 degrees on the downstroke. If one is interested in increasing power they should be interested in getting it wherever they can and not restricting themselves to a small portion of the pedaling circle.

A PC'er, who has enough time on the cranks, should pedal exactly the same on regular cranks as they do on PC's. The key phrase in that sentence is "who has enough time on the cranks."
 
Mar 18, 2009
2,553
0
0
CoachFergie said:
Is that the title to the Frank Day story?

You'd really have to ask Frank, since it is his standard retort whenever he feels like he losing a debate.
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
acoggan said:
You'd really have to ask Frank, since it is his standard retort whenever he feels like he losing a debate.
The problem is, of course, that my use of that word is usually just a shorthand to criticize the kind of "debating" you do, which frequently has nothing to do with real facts but rather using either ad hominem attacks or appeals to authority (usually your own) to make your point (which is why I refer to you as an academic bully).

You are here again, not to add anything to the conversation but, rather, just to try to make me look bad. If you thought I was losing this argument you wouldn't bother to even show up. You are here talking about me rather than the thread topic though which must mean something doncha think?
 
May 13, 2011
550
0
9,580
FrankDay said:
Doug Clark, a long-time (10+ years) PowerCranker just won another national championship at USAT nats last weekend. He probably sends Fergie a little Christmas gift every year.


I see that Coach Doug is a really massive fan of training and racing with a power meters. His workouts, races and coaching are very power specific. Yes he does have a set of PCs on his indoor trainer bike mounted on his Wahoo Kickr. It's interesting that he fails to go into any discussion regarding PCs beyond showing a set mounted on his trainer. Perhaps it's the fan mounted on the trainer that is doing the most good;)

http://www.newjerseytriathloncoach.com/tips/power

Hugh
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
sciguy said:
I see that Coach Doug is a really massive fan of training and racing with a power meters. His workouts, races and coaching are very power specific. Yes he does have a set of PCs on his indoor trainer bike mounted on his Wahoo Kickr. It's interesting that he fails to go into any discussion regarding PCs beyond showing a set mounted on his trainer. Perhaps it's the fan mounted on the trainer that is doing the most good;)

http://www.newjerseytriathloncoach.com/tips/power

Hugh
Maybe you might want to go to our videos and see what he has to say about the PowerCranks. I believe he is on both the running and cycling video. Of course, you will have to slog through about 50 others in each video but he is there.

Come on. Do you really believe that because he uses another tool that is a good argument that the tool we are discussing and that he has used for at least 10 years is worthless? It is probable that he feels both tools are valuable but I think it beneath you to try to put words in his mouth (or make assumptions) regarding which tool he feels has been move valuable to him.

The fact remains, Doug Clark has been a PowerCranker for many years and he has dominated his age group for many years. The fact he also has power data does not diminish that fact nor imply anything about the usefulness of the tool to him. Of course, the usual thing here is it doesn't matter what he thinks about the product as he is probably under my spell. What could he possibly know compared to the experts who hang out here?
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
sciguy said:
I see that Coach Doug is a really massive fan of training and racing with a power meters. His workouts, races and coaching are very power specific. Yes he does have a set of PCs on his indoor trainer bike mounted on his Wahoo Kickr. It's interesting that he fails to go into any discussion regarding PCs beyond showing a set mounted on his trainer. Perhaps it's the fan mounted on the trainer that is doing the most good;)

http://www.newjerseytriathloncoach.com/tips/power

Hugh
One more thing, are trying to imply that it is his use of a power meter that has improved his power? Could you point me to a single instance of any scientific support for such an claim/argument? As has been confirmed many times on the power meter thread no such support currently exists. At least PowerCranks has some scientific support for our claim.
 
Apr 21, 2009
3,095
0
13,480
sciguy said:
I see that Coach Doug is a really massive fan of training and racing with a power meters. His workouts, races and coaching are very power specific. Yes he does have a set of PCs on his indoor trainer bike mounted on his Wahoo Kickr. It's interesting that he fails to go into any discussion regarding PCs beyond showing a set mounted on his trainer. Perhaps it's the fan mounted on the trainer that is doing the most good;)

http://www.newjerseytriathloncoach.com/tips/power

Hugh

Yes seems pretty clear what types of training he is immersing himself in, what he strongly recommends to others and how he monitors progress in training and racing.

And whose information he trusts...

Doug said:
Spinscan
Don't worry if your numbers suck. Don't gloat if they rock. Spinscan doesn't really matter. Here are some thoughts of one of the authorities such subjects, Andrew Coggan:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=1649079#1649079
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
CoachFergie said:
Yes seems pretty clear what types of training he is immersing himself in, what he strongly recommends to others and how he monitors progress in training and racing.

And whose information he trusts...
Information is one thing. This is how he actually trains (at least indoors). The fact they are still part of his regimen after many many years and he is still winning big time must mean something. Or, not? No, I guess not, at least to some of you. Maybe sciguy is right, it is the big ugly fan that makes the difference.
Here's my indoor bike trainer. Ugly but effective. Computrainer, Powercranks, big ugly fan, three remote control holders, easy access water bottle on the head tube, paper towel holder, what else do you need?
232323232%7Ffp633%3B3%3Enu%3D3253%3E4%3A5%3E2%3A%3B%3EWSNRCG%3D3587%3B%3B583332%3Anu0mrj
 
Apr 21, 2009
3,095
0
13,480
Isn't it ironic that in a forum on improving fitness that the top two threads are about products that neither improve fitness or performance :p
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
CoachFergie said:
Isn't it ironic that in a forum on improving fitness that the top two threads are about products that neither improve fitness or performance :p
I thought this forum was supposed to be about "form & fitness". At least one of the top threads (this one) is about form.
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
sciguy said:
I see that Coach Doug is a really massive fan of training and racing with a power meters. His workouts, races and coaching are very power specific. Yes he does have a set of PCs on his indoor trainer bike mounted on his Wahoo Kickr. It's interesting that he fails to go into any discussion regarding PCs beyond showing a set mounted on his trainer. Perhaps it's the fan mounted on the trainer that is doing the most good;)

http://www.newjerseytriathloncoach.com/tips/power

Hugh
CoachFergie said:
Yes seems pretty clear what types of training he is immersing himself in, what he strongly recommends to others and how he monitors progress in training and racing.

And whose information he trusts...
Let's pretend you are someone who races against Doug and he has been kicking your **** for years. Let's pretend you also already have a power meter and do all that TP stuff. And, you already spend as many hours training a week as he does. Do you think there might be anything to learn from paying attention to what Doug is doing differently than you that might be the difference between you and him?

Or, let's pretend you race against Sam Gyde. Sam also races with a power meter like Doug. Sam has won his age-group the last three years at the Ironman World Championships in Kona. Sam is kicking your **** and you already own a power meter and do all the TP stuff and can't train any more or harder. Is it possible that Sam might be doing something differently than you that accounts for the difference? What does he say?
I am a hardcore powercranker since the beginning of 2011. Powercranks are for me the number one trainingstool to take off for the next level. They improve balance, make you stronger and boost your running and cycling endurance. Sure they are controversial. But they work for me and thousands of other athletes. Don’t hesitate to contact me if you want to know more about them or give them a try.

But, what would he (and Doug) know compared to the experts here, like you two (and others)?

Edit: Further, it is clear one has to question Doug and Sam's sanity when they continue to use and think positively about this training device when there isn't enough scientific evidence to convince the experts here they work as we claim.
 
Mar 10, 2009
2,973
5
11,485
FrankDay said:
IAlmost everyone has a 40% improvement waiting to be found in correcting their poor technique.

FrankDay said:
Since we are not in a court of law I don't believe there is any burden of proof that falls to me.

Frank, I have a product that will guarantee a 100% improvement. I don't need to prove it of course since this isn't a court of law.

Send me $1000 and I'll shoot one over to you. I mean you can't possibly criticise it's efficacy since you've never tried it. What have you got to lose?
 
Nov 25, 2010
1,175
68
10,580
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Frank, I have a product that will guarantee a 100% improvement. I don't need to prove it of course since this isn't a court of law.

Send me $1000 and I'll shoot one over to you. I mean you can't possibly criticise it's efficacy since you've never tried it. What have you got to lose?
-------------
I am seriously interested in your product, provided that the quarantee is a full refund if I am not satisfied. Your professional reputation makes me comfortable taking the chance.

Please give details.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
CoachFergie said:
Ha ha, just found this (thanks Robert Chung). More gimmicks...

http://nullwinds.com/test-strong.html

Many paralells to other products making baseless claims.
I didn't realize fairings were gimmicks in that fairings are generally considered to be a good way of reducing wind resistance, which one might expect to improve speed into a headwind. Therefore, I am not sure I would consider their claims to be "baseless."

The problem I see with this tool is fairings are illegal for racing purposes.
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
JayKosta said:
-------------
I am seriously interested in your product, provided that the quarantee is a full refund if I am not satisfied. Your professional reputation makes me comfortable taking the chance.

Please give details.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Me too. Although I would also like to know what the 100% improvement is in (attractiveness to women, speed in fixing a flat, ???) and how he thinks his device accomplishes this improvement to help me judge whether the trial would be worthwhile. His reputation combined with a worthwhile advantage and a money-back guarantee makes it worth taking a leap of faith to get an advantage over the competition who is waiting for scientific proof.
 
Jun 1, 2014
385
0
0
FrankDay said:
Me too. Although I would also like to know what the 100% improvement is in (attractiveness to women, speed in fixing a flat, ???) and how he thinks his device accomplishes this improvement to help me judge whether the trial would be worthwhile. His reputation combined with a worthwhile advantage and a money-back guarantee makes it worth taking a leap of faith to get an advantage over the competition who is waiting for scientific proof.

Seems like a few of your posts are missing today???

Anyway. Back to the relevant point of training tools/methods that give double digit improvements. No rider could keep that a secret. If a rider came back after a winter of training with a 40% improvement in power, they would have everyone asking. No possible way they could hide a training tool like PC.

To claim that PC are so hard to find on elite riders (or any riders) is because they want to keep it secret is laughable. Something with that much upside would be in every riders kit of gear. Especially since you claim they need so much dedicated time on PC. When I was with one group that was into spirotiger, they could keep that secret if they wanted. Only needed 20min a couple times a week. But to accomplish most of your riding on PC and not have anyone find out would be near impossible. People would be accused of doping if they improved that much and kept their training that secret.
 
Mar 10, 2009
2,973
5
11,485
FrankDay said:
I didn't realize fairings were gimmicks in that fairings are generally considered to be a good way of reducing wind resistance, which one might expect to improve speed into a headwind. Therefore, I am not sure I would consider their claims to be "baseless."

The problem I see with this tool is fairings are illegal for racing purposes.

There is that and other practical issues like dealing with wheels that go out of true or break a spoke.

More to the point though are the scope of performance improvement they claim which, like yours, are implausible.

e.g. they claimed one novice level rider gained a 20% speed improvement while riding into strong headwinds at same power*.

If that were true, it would require these fairing to achieve the remarkable result of halving the total bike and rider CdA (coefficient of drag).

But hey, if a rider goes faster, what does it matter if it's because of things other than the device used? May as well claim it anyway, eh Frank?

I sent them some comments via twitter, but not surprisingly, my comments don't appear in their twitter feed.


* note the use of an ibike Newton for power data.
 
Mar 10, 2009
2,973
5
11,485
JayKosta said:
-------------
I am seriously interested in your product, provided that the quarantee is a full refund if I am not satisfied. Your professional reputation makes me comfortable taking the chance.

Please give details.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Well there is a bit of a catch, it requires total immersion for 6-9 months, non use of any device that could objectively track actual changes, and you need to be clinically dead before starting. ;)
 
Mar 10, 2009
965
0
0
JamesCun said:
Seems like a few of your posts are missing today???

Anyway. Back to the relevant point of training tools/methods that give double digit improvements. No rider could keep that a secret. If a rider came back after a winter of training with a 40% improvement in power, they would have everyone asking. No possible way they could hide a training tool like PC.

To claim that PC are so hard to find on elite riders (or any riders) is because they want to keep it secret is laughable. Something with that much upside would be in every riders kit of gear. Especially since you claim they need so much dedicated time on PC. When I was with one group that was into spirotiger, they could keep that secret if they wanted. Only needed 20min a couple times a week. But to accomplish most of your riding on PC and not have anyone find out would be near impossible. People would be accused of doping if they improved that much and kept their training that secret.

In reality what Frank is claiming is that the circular pedalling technique can increase power by a possible 40% because there is no difference in the objectives of the technique when a PC'er returns to standard cranks.
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
JamesCun said:
Seems like a few of your posts are missing today???

Anyway. Back to the relevant point of training tools/methods that give double digit improvements. No rider could keep that a secret. If a rider came back after a winter of training with a 40% improvement in power, they would have everyone asking. No possible way they could hide a training tool like PC.
Wouldn't know about the missing posts.

Re seeing 40% improvement after a winter of training being noticed. Yep, happens all the time. But, those asking simply refuse to believe that the PC's are the main reason for the improvement. Talked to a guy today who started showing up at the local race circuit after seeing big improvement after getting on PC's and is kicking everyone's rear end. He says everyone is asking him what happened but none will believe it is the PC's. We are convinced that the real issues are:
1. People don't want to look funny. They would prefer to be slow but look sexy doing it.
2. They think they are ugly and heavy (going back to the looking sexy thing again)
3. They simply can't believe that something that slows them down at first can eventually lead to big improvements.
4. Stephanie Adam (an amateur) had the fastest split of all the women at Kona the last two years and trained on PowerCranks (her coach has posted such information on ST) but people simply refuse to believe PC's could have anything to do with it. Sam Gyde (an amateur) had the 5th fastest bike split at Kona last year and has credited PowerCranks specifically for his improvement. Few (except for those he coaches) believe him in his assessment. You can lead horses (or athletes) to water (advances) but you can't make them drink (believe).
To claim that PC are so hard to find on elite riders (or any riders) is because they want to keep it secret is laughable.
All I can say is what I told you Barb Lindquist told me. When your career becomes as illustrious as hers let me know. Barb's only weakness was racing in the heat. PowerCranks don't help with that.
Something with that much upside would be in every riders kit of gear.
I think you would be surprised how many people use them. How do you explain phone calls like the one from Taylor Phinney that started "Cadel says I need to get on these." Or the phone call from a rep from the T-mobile team saying I needed to stop using Michael Rogers name as using the product as we were not a team sponsor. I emailed him with the issue and he said he would take care of it and I never heard from them again. Stefano Garzelli actually rode the cranks on a rest day at the TDF. Many many people use these that you don't know about.
Especially since you claim they need so much dedicated time on PC.
They only require so much dedicated time if one is interested in seeing the maximum benefit. The big name cycling pros tend to use them much more on a part-time basis but then they usually are starting with much better technique so change might be easier and the potential improvement much smaller. They got mentioned in Cadel Evan's book as something he used before the season started to remind him of how he is supposed to pedal. I assume everyone tries to use them in a way that works best for them.
When I was with one group that was into spirotiger, they could keep that secret if they wanted. Only needed 20min a couple times a week. But to accomplish most of your riding on PC and not have anyone find out would be near impossible. People would be accused of doping if they improved that much and kept their training that secret.
Most of the big name riders who have used PC's have been accused of doping. In fact, a lot of them doped also (long list). Seems to me that all that means is some people will try anything to get better, some of which is against the rules. But, not all. I simply point out that Nibali has used the tool (and some are suspecting him of doping), something he didn't try to keep secret but tweeted about it, and people simply refuse to believe this could have anything to do with his TDF victory this year.

Anyhow, you are free to ignore the possibility of them doing something for you. If anyone should know about the device I would think it would be me. I simply post what we know about the tool for those who care to hear what I say. Not everyone sees 40% improvement but why would you pass on the possibility of a 5-10% improvement? It seems to me they are worth a try since there is a money-back guarantee. If you ever have some facts that they don't work as we claim I am willing to see what you have.
 
Sep 23, 2010
3,596
1
0
Alex Simmons/RST said:
Well there is a bit of a catch, it requires total immersion for 6-9 months, non use of any device that could objectively track actual changes, and you need to be clinically dead before starting. ;)
But, no money-back guarantee? Nor any indication as to what you are going to improve? I'll pass.
 
Apr 21, 2009
3,095
0
13,480
coapman said:
Why do we have to report it, are the moderators not capable of recognizing it.

Who knows. Certainly see more spam posts disappear after reporting them. Assume mods are busy people.