The Powermeter Thread

[CoachFergie]

However, he was in a dilemma because his power meter was also telling him his power dropped every time he went back to regular cranks from his PowerCranks and he has IM Arizona coming up in less than a month.

So why does Sam Gyde train on a Gimmickcrank and race on an SRM?

Really? You can't do that without a pm? I would have thought a HRM was a better tool to pick up over training.

But you have no idea what is causing HR. Either the rider can or can't achieve the target powers.

How about those numerous studies that show no benefit to using a pm?

Strawman. You might recall us saying a power meter measures performance doesn't change it.

How many pm's make that offer?

I am sure if a power meter isn't measuring power you can return it under warranty.

How well they do what? Can't you just look at how they placed to see how well they raced by feel?

Maybe in a flat time trial, but more to cycle sport than that.

Wasn't it you that posted a picture of Frome looking at his pm, as if it meant something?

Yes definetly Frank, people should train and race with a power meter and look at it 24/7 because Froome does

Now you say all the riders out there are ignoring their pm during a race?

I have consistently said that. Primarily for safety concerns.

I guess you can analyze a file like those Kona analysis files that really say nothing. Oh, your VI was 1.04 and I was looking for 1.03 or less. Instead of looking at this file to see how well they followed some plan I would be looking at it to see if I could see weaknesses that needed to be worked on that wasn't obvious. If you have the information you ought to use it. Only questions are, does using the information really make a difference?

Well according to studies on training, diet, recovery, pacing and tapering among others, yes!

Perhaps, but proof sure is lacking.

Only to those who ignore it.

Right now it is all a bunch of supposition.

Yeah, but like making a claim of 40% improvement from using a product but never supplying any evidence. Then you have riders start using the product and their performance decreases like Taylor Phinney or your man finding that going from a Gimmickcrank to a normal crank for racing hurts his performance. Good thing he had a power meter to show him the error of his ways.

That is the problemI wonder if that could be because their race day effort is a little higher than their training efforts? Plus, being tapered and all. Just sayin…

So how is this different to our claims that FTP will be higher on race day as evidenced by higher IF's than we would expect. Just sayin...

LOL. So, here we have an amateur woman who has had the fastest bike split a Kona, faster than all the pros, TWO YEARS IN A ROW and you wonder if she is reaching her performance potential because you don't have her power numbers.

So what was the difference between Kona and Texas where she failed to finish. Why speculate when you can measure?

I guess that is one way of looking at it. Although, I think you could always wonder if she could do more even if you had those numbers. I actually have asked that question. I'll bet that more can be done and she could be even faster.

We saw an athlete and coach looking at their training stress scores and fine tuning the preparation process leading into Kona.

 

[sciguy]

TWO YEARS IN A ROW [/B]and you wonder if she is reaching her performance potential because you don't have her power numbers. I guess that is one way of looking at it. Although, I think you could always wonder if she could do more even if you had those numbers. I actually have asked that question. I'll bet that more can be done and she could be even faster.

Frank,

Last time I checked, both Stefanie and Sam were racing a Triathlon They certainly biked quickly. Setting new bike course records on what is well recognized as being one of the fastest days ever is still a great accomplishment but in the Triathlon both were beaten by a couple of fixy crankers who perhaps paced their bike rides a bit better. Stefanie in particular seems to have suffered on the run giving up 34 minutes to the eventual amateur winner. It really seems that her pacing was geared towards "winning the bike" rather than the race. I thought that Powercranks were supposed to help ones run?

Interestingly Stefanie beat Catherine in 2012 but was 15 minutes behind her this year despite all that time spent on Powercranks. What's that tell you?

Perhaps we should be looking what the new age group champions did to set new records for the Triathlon?. Despite the prevailing Slowtwitch sentiment, it's not a race to T-2 that counts

Hugh

 

[CoachFergie]

Last time I checked both Stefanie and Sam were racing a Triathlon They certainly biked quickly. Setting new course records on what is well recognized as being one of the fastest days ever especially for biking is still a great accomplishment but in the Triathlon both were beaten by a couple of fixy crankers who perhaps paced their bike rides a bit better. Stefanie in particular seems to have really suffered on the run giving up 34 minutes to the eventual age group winner. It really seems that her pacing was geared towards "winning the bike" rather than the race. I thought that Powercranks were supposed to help ones run?

And where did training and racing by feel get Stefanie in Texas?

 

[42x16ss]

Frank,

Last time I checked both Stefanie and Sam were racing a Triathlon They certainly biked quickly. Setting new course records on what is well recognized as being one of the fastest days ever especially for biking is still a great accomplishment but in the Triathlon both were beaten by a couple of fixy crankers who perhaps paced their bike rides a bit better. Stefanie in particular seems to have really suffered on the run giving up 34 minutes to the eventual age group winner. It really seems that her pacing was geared towards "winning the bike" rather than the race. I thought that Powercranks were supposed to help ones run?

Interestingly Stefanie beat Catherine in 2012 but was 15 minutes behind her this year despite all that time spent on Powercranks. What's that tell you?

Perhaps we should be looking what the new age group champions did to set new records for the Triathlon?. Despite the prevailing Slowtwitch sentiment, it's not a race to T-2 that counts

Hugh

Ssssh! Don't let facts get in the way

 

[FrankDay]

Frank,

Last time I checked, both Stefanie and Sam were racing a Triathlon They certainly biked quickly. Setting new bike course records on what is well recognized as being one of the fastest days ever is still a great accomplishment but in the Triathlon both were beaten by a couple of fixy crankers who perhaps paced their bike rides a bit better. Stefanie in particular seems to have suffered on the run giving up 34 minutes to the eventual age group winner. It really seems that her pacing was geared towards "winning the bike" rather than the race. I thought that Powercranks were supposed to help ones run?

Hmmm. It was a triathlon. Let's look a little closer at those races. You imply that Kyle paced himself better than Sam because Kyle had a faster overall time and a faster run. Sam rode 10 minutes faster than Kyle and ran 3 minutes slower. How is it that Kyle beat Sam? Well, Kyle swam 12 minutes faster. Me thinks it wasn't the bike pacing that "won" the race for Kyle and lost it for Sam. Further, neither won or lost as they race in different age groups. Both won their age group. You are only talking about fastest overall amateur. Sam's weakness, obviously, is his swim. Regarding Stefanie's ride/run, Stefanies run is her weakness. PowerCranks only claim to help with the run, not to turn bad runners into Olympic caliber runners. Neither of us have a clue what her running was like before she got on PowerCRanks so her relatively "weak" run of a 3:40 marathon (after riding hard for 5 hours) may still be a considerable improvement from where she was. So, you seem to be drawing conclusions that are unwarranted as you have zero information other than the splits for the three events. My guess is she raced as best she could in the manner that she thought would get her from point a to point b as fast as possible. It seemed to work since she won her age group for the second year in a row.

Interestingly Stefanie beat Catherine in 2012 but was 15 minutes behind her this year despite all that time spent on Powercranks. What's that tell you?

I don't know. She was on PowerCranks before last years race also. I think I would have to ask her what was going on. Or, maybe her competition improved. Maybe they got on PowerCranks. Who knows? I can only speak knowledgeably of what I know. This is all strawman stuff.

Perhaps we should be looking what the new age group champions did to set new records for the Triathlon?. Despite the prevailing Slowtwitch sentiment, it's not a race to T-2 that counts

Maybe you should before you go criticizing any particular participant or hyping others. Anyhow, this is a power meter thread. Seems to me that focusing on the bike split is reasonable for this thread. But, what would I know

 

[CoachFergie]

So, you seem to be drawing conclusions that are unwarranted as you have zero information other than the splits for the three events.

So drawing conclusions from only two or three data points is bad!

This is all strawman stuff.

So strawman arguments are bad!

Maybe you should before you go criticizing any particular participant or hyping others. Anyhow, this is a power meter thread. Seems to me that focusing on the bike split is reasonable for this thread. But, what would I know

So basing an argument of an anecdote is bad!

Oh the irony

 

[FrankDay]

And where did training and racing by feel get Stefanie in Texas?

LOL. So many things can go wrong during a race resulting in a poor result. Almost everything has to go right to get an excellent result. But, let's assume everything went right except her pacing. My guess is that anyone going as fast as Stefanie is very close to the edge. If she pushed too hard that race I suspect it is just something she will put into her "effort computer" for the future.

Keeping competitors well under their potential to ensure a finish might be a good strategy for someone trying to complete their first Ironman. It seems like a particularly poor strategy for someone at the pointy end of the race. Last I looked Stefanie is at the pointy end.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Since Frank has decided to totally ruin any chance that this or many other threads might provide some value to the readership with his incessant trolling, his complete and utter nonsense and endless stream of logical fallacy, then I see no point in it continuing.

The drains have been thoroughly clogged and the **** won't flush away.

 

[CoachFergie]

Complain to the moderators!

Of course all his arguments against a power meter can be turned back against his claims about Gimmickcrank use.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Complain to the moderators!

Of course all his arguments against a power meter can be turned back against his claims about Gimmickcrank use.

No point in flogging a dead horse.

 

[CoachFergie]

I'm not giving up, people need to get on-board with this stuff. The gains from coaching by heart rate (for me for 5min) and then by feel/self report to power are just too good and evidence based.

Funny thing is that every Frank claims is a trivial issue compared to the errors and misunderstanding's of riding and racing with a power meter. If Sam Gyde doesn't use metrics like IF or NP, or understand the basis and difference for either then why use an SRM and upload to TrainingPeaks in the first place. Either Frank is mis-representing him or the guy is a ***!

 

[elapid]

Since Frank has decided to totally ruin any chance that this or many other threads might provide some value to the readership with his incessant trolling, his complete and utter nonsense and endless stream of logical fallacy, then I see no point in it continuing.

The drains have been thoroughly clogged and the **** won't flush away.

Hi Alex - We all appreciate your input. Just hit the ignore button on Frank. His disingenuous trolling will then be nowhere to see and you can carry on more intelligent discourses with people willing to listen, learn and contribute, rather than the likes of Frank who just want to derail threads and irritate people.

 

[FrankDay]

… Either Frank is mis-representing him or the guy is a ***!

Since those are the only choices it has to be one of them I suppose.

 

[CoachFergie]

More Ironman analysis...

http://lavamagazine.com/a-clinic-in-kona-frederik-van-lierdes-srm-power-data/

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/FVWQAWHZEA5XIQPL5WGPAXFLEY

 

[veganrob]

More Ironman analysis...

http://lavamagazine.com/a-clinic-in-kona-frederik-van-lierdes-srm-power-data/

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/FVWQAWHZEA5XIQPL5WGPAXFLEY

Thanks for those links Fergie. They are right on.
I just had a similar experience this past wknd riding Gran Fondo HIncapie. I was not in the best of shape but knew exactly what I was capable of because of some training sessions with my PM. I knew I could ride at x number of watts for various x amount of times. While I didn't have to stare at my Garmin, I checked to see where I was especially on some of the very tough climbs. I finished better than my predicted time and knew and felt I left it all out there.
There are so many variables out there in racing that a PM is the most accurate tool to help reduce some of them and make sense of it all.

 

[sciguy]

Teaching the New Science of Power training- Free webinars in November
with Dr. Andrew Coggan as the main presenter.

This looks to be an extremely interesting opportunity for all those interested in getting the most good out of their power meter usage........... and it's free!!!!!!!

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/resources.aspx

 

[CoachFergie]

Teaching the New Science of Power training- Free webinars in November
with Dr. Andrew Coggan as the main presenter.

This looks to be an extremely interesting opportunity for all those interested in getting the most good out of their power meter usage........... and it's free!!!!!!!

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/resources.aspx

Yes, will lead in to the release of WKO+ 4.0 rather nicely.

Andy has been releasing teasers for the last few months!

 

[FrankDay]

Teaching the New Science of Power training- Free webinars in November
with Dr. Andrew Coggan as the main presenter.

This looks to be an extremely interesting opportunity for all those interested in getting the most good out of their power meter usage........... and it's free!!!!!!!

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/resources.aspx

Since they are referring to teaching the New Science of Power Training perhaps there actually is some now since they could never produce any "old science" when asked. Hope they tell everyone what it is.

 

[CoachFergie]

Since they are referring to teaching the New Science of Power Training perhaps there actually is some now since they could never produce any "old science" when asked. Hope they tell everyone what it is.

Stop trolling.

 

[sittingbison]

No point in flogging a dead horse.

hey, I'm not a horse...and I'm sitting, not dead

And yes, please use the report feature with posts that are of concern.

cheers
bison

 

[FrankDay]

If Sam Gyde doesn't use metrics like IF or NP, or understand the basis and difference for either then why use an SRM and upload to TrainingPeaks in the first place. Either Frank is mis-representing him or the guy is a ***!

Now the reader can decide for himself regarding Sam. Here is a link to an interview with Sam regarding a lot of things. This is a 2+ hour podcast and Sam's interview starts at about 1'25". It was done after his last Kona race. In it he discusses his background, training routine, some testing he has done, how he used his power meter during the Kona race and more. I was surprised about several things but especially his VO2max. Heads up, the last 10 minutes is pretty much devoted to his use of and experience with PowerCranks. If you don't want to hear that stop when it starts. Anyhow, here is the link.

http://www.imtalk.me/home/2013/10/28/imtalk-episode-385-dirk-bockel-and-sam-gyde.html

 

[CoachFergie]

Teaching the New Science of Power training- Free webinars in November
with Dr. Andrew Coggan as the main presenter.

This looks to be an extremely interesting opportunity for all those interested in getting the most good out of their power meter usage........... and it's free!!!!!!!

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/resources.aspx

Over the next four weeks I will be listening to someone who has an amazing understanding of power meter use to measure the riding and racing experience and how to use the data to make better decisions about the preparation, recovery and racing process.

 

[CoachFergie]

A good case study of when things don't go to plan in Kona...

http://firstoffthebike.com/tri101/racing-like-champion-craig-alexanders-kona-power-data/

 

[FrankDay]

A good case study of when things don't go to plan in Kona...

http://firstoffthebike.com/tri101/racing-like-champion-craig-alexanders-kona-power-data/

fergie, perhaps you could expound on what your take is on this. Here are a few things I don't understand about this analysis that you call a good case study.

" These high-intensity efforts burn glycogen at an exponential rate, but it was the only card Alexander could play to stay in the picture." Really, the only card? Why?

"Is this the textbook way to ride an Ironman bike? No, but Alexander’s numbers reflect the reality of racing as an elite, compared to the efforts of most age groupers who are able to treat the race like an individual time trial." What is so different about the pro race that optimizing it requires a different plan than the elite or average age-grouper? How did his having a power meter help or hurt his effort, if you can tell.

"Afterwards Alexander was candid saying he didn’t have a terrible day – he said he had the day he was capable of but that it just wasn’t there anymore. Looking purely at the numbers one thing is clear – Alexander raced like a champion." Not my take at all. I would have said he made a terrible decision following his flat to burn a couple of matches to catch up with that lead group. Wouldn't he have been better off to have simply time-trialed his way up Queen K until he was picked up by the second group? He is one of the fastest runners in the sport and coming in to T2 5-10 minutes down has never seemed to hurt Mirinda Carfrae.

So, it isn't clear to me what the rest of us can learn analyzing this file, at least the way it is analyzed here. The TP "expert" has declared that Alexander was forced into this atypical effort because of his flat and the fact the elites race differently than everyone else. He calls it a champions effort! Then, what is to be learned from analyzing the elites? Or, what is to be learned at all? You look at this stuff all the time. What is your take? What is the take of others who profess to know what they are looking at?

 

[CoachFergie]

"These high-intensity efforts burn glycogen at an exponential rate, but it was the only card Alexander could play to stay in the picture." Really, the only card? Why?

Andy Coggan recently said "it's your glycogen budget, spend it wisely".

"Is this the textbook way to ride an Ironman bike? No, but Alexander’s numbers reflect the reality of racing as an elite, compared to the efforts of most age groupers who are able to treat the race like an individual time trial." What is so different about the pro race that optimizing it requires a different plan than the elite or average age-grouper? How did his having a power meter help or hurt his effort, if you can tell.

Strawman. Unless the SRM was draining his lifeforce all it does measure power.

"Afterwards Alexander was candid saying he didn’t have a terrible day – he said he had the day he was capable of but that it just wasn’t there anymore. Looking purely at the numbers one thing is clear – Alexander raced like a champion." Not my take at all. I would have said he made a terrible decision following his flat to burn a couple of matches to catch up with that lead group. Wouldn't he have been better off to have simply time-trialed his way up Queen K until he was picked up by the second group? He is one of the fastest runners in the sport and coming in to T2 5-10 minutes down has never seemed to hurt Mirinda Carfrae.

Could well have been a better strategy. VI of 1:07.

So, it isn't clear to me what the rest of us can learn analyzing this file, at least the way it is analyzed here.

Simply what happens when the script gets changed due to circumstance.

Context always helps. Does he use the Performance Manager? Does he just use it cycling Training Stress Scores or do they use estimated TSS for Swim and Run training. Is he comparing powers from race to race to try and find an optimal pace. Is he using the PM to pace or just to assess after if his "feel" was right. Performance on the day doesn't just happen. Preparation is repeating the race day time and time again, measuring to see what works and what doesn't.

Part of that testing is testing the tests. We all did lactate threshold testing back in the eighties, people still do it now. But why use a proxy for 30min power (lactate threshold) when you can just measure 30min power. As Alex has suggested a lot of things like FTP may not be ideal for an Ironman. Andy Coggan may differ on that.

The TP "expert" has declared that Alexander was forced into this atypical effort because of his flat and the fact the elites race differently than everyone else. He calls it a champions effort! Then, what is to be learned from analyzing the elites?

Do you think the Elites have attained perfection? If not then we keep measuring, testing and challenging them to do more.

Or, what is to be learned at all?

Well we test things like Independent Cranks and don't find any advantage so we know we can move on.

You look at this stuff all the time. What is your take?

Just the same as looking at the power from the Tour de France. Interesting. But without context a little limited. It's why I tell people who are new to power that it is usually 6 months in that we can start to get a more focused picture of what is happening with their cycling fitness.