This was a good thread but it's quickly descending into rubbish like another well known thread. If CN don't ban Frank Day then I can only suggest that no-one respond to him, it's absolutely pointless.
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You guys are crazy. Anyone with half a brain knows that a good study tries to eliminate all variables except for the one being tested. If what you want to test is the question: for any given training program design will it make a difference whether one uses a HRM as the effort feedback device or a power meter as the effort feedback device? If that is the question then there would not be any intervention other than two groups are given a similar program and one group uses one device and the other uses another and then they are compared. While no study is ever perfect, isn't that what these studies tried to do? And, didn't they find no difference?acoggan said:No, it's because anyone with half-a-brain knows that if you want to test an intervention, you have to actually intervene, i.e., create a difference from whatever it is with which you wish to compare it. Neither of the studies in question were designed to do this...and given the risks involved in any type of human studies research, you have to wonder how they ever got ethical approval to proceed (I know that our HRPO wouldn't let me conduct any study designed so poorly).
Fergie, that is the point. Both groups were able to complete the same program and achieve the same results using two different effort feedback devices. No advantage was seen by the group using the more expensive and supposedly more accurate device.CoachFergie said:What a load of waffle.
Both studies got two groups to do the same training and upon testing found neither group were significantly different. Wow, just wow!
Polyarmour said:This was a good thread but it's quickly descending into rubbish like another well known thread. If CN don't ban Frank Day then I can only suggest that no-one respond to him, it's absolutely pointless.
FrankDay said:You guys are crazy. Anyone with half a brain knows that a good study tries to eliminate all variables except for the one being tested. If what you want to test is the question: for any given training program design will it make a difference whether one uses a HRM as the effort feedback device or a power meter as the effort feedback device?
If that is the question then there would not be any intervention other than two groups are given a similar program and one group uses one device and the other uses another and then they are compared. While no study is ever perfect, isn't that what these studies tried to do? And, didn't they find no difference?
Fergie, if you understood science you would understand that all I am pointing out is some of what the science says about the device compared to other tools used in training and racing, which is what you asked for when you started this thread, remember? My comments do not constitute a personal attack towards you or anyone else.CoachFergie said:If you understood racing and training with a power meter you would know that training isn't about slavishly following any type of feedback device. Training is about doing the necessary preparation to perform in any given event. The power meter tells us how well and how specifically we are doing this.
FrankDay said:Fergie, if you understood science you would understand that all I am pointing out is some of what the science says about the device compared to other tools used in training and racing.
That having been said, one of the arguments given for using a power meter is it is more accurate and doesn't "lag" like a HRM. Then, above you state: "If you understood racing and training with a power meter you would know that training isn't about slavishly following any type of feedback device" Where is the advantage of having a more accurate feedback device if it isn't necessary or even desirable to monitor what is going on with it during the workout?
In another post you state you "I do my interval sessions watching TV or at least with music because watching either a PM or HRM does my head in." If that is the case exactly how are you judging the effort of your sessions?
What good does the power meter do you if all you are doing is checking, after the session, what you actually did? It isn't like you can take a mulligan and do it over if the pm averaged higher or lower than you wanted.
Perhaps we can now understand why the studies haven't found any difference between the pm and the hrm - nobody actually pays much attention to either one of them during the workout.
FrankDay said:Fergie, if you understood science
FrankDay said:"If you understood racing and training with a power meter you would know that training isn't about slavishly following any type of feedback device" Where is the advantage of having a more accurate feedback device if it isn't necessary or even desirable to monitor what is going on with it during the workout?
I'm starting to suspect that Frank has a grudge against pro cycling, if you know what I meanBroDeal said:Sweet Zombie Jesus! Can't there be a thread about power without this Frank Day idjit spamming it with his idiocy? Someone needs to start a thread about clocks, cyclometers, or some other measuring device so we can all laugh as Day denies those can be used for measuring training results.
Should we start reporting every one of this posts until the mods do something? Hint mods: There is a good reason why this spamming snake oil salesman was banned from Slowtwitch. He thinks crap flooding any thread that is remotely connected to his product or could be used to disprove his fraudulent claims is good advertising. Plus, unlike companies with legitimate products that pay for advertising, he gets a free ride. He does the same thing on other forums until they finally get sick of him and kick him off.
Durianrider's self-promotion was confined to a single thread. Why not make a "Power Cranks Fraud" thread and restrict Day's broscience to it?
42x16ss said:The debate style can be worryingly similar...
I am sorry, I do understand it can be used to track improvement and all of those other things. Cool. All I am saying is the the science seems to be saying that the improvement any athlete on a similar program will see appears to be exactly the same if it isn't used. If you think it makes a difference for you cool, keep using it. I am simply saying that there is no evidence that it is as helpful as everyone seems to think it is.42x16ss said:That's the whole point though - you do the workout as prescribed, then go back and see if you have improved or are fatigued and then adjust your upcoming training to suit. The only time you should be watching your PM like a hawk while ridingis on recovery rides and during TT's. The rest of the time it is just a guide.
Overall a PM is simply a measurement tool to track improvement and fatigue and to confirm or negate training structure. You still don't grasp the concept of using a PM to adapt your training to suit your physiology and form
Remember, the best tool is no better than a hammer if you don't know how to use it.
FrankDay said:I am sorry, I do understand it can be used to track improvement and all of those other things. Cool. All I am saying is the the science seems to be saying that the improvement any athlete on a similar program will see appears to be exactly the same if it isn't used. If you think it makes a difference for you cool, keep using it. I am simply saying that there is no evidence that it is as helpful as everyone seems to think it is.
To those who don't like my throwing ice water into a power meter love fest all I say is present some scientific data to support what you believe.
And, I think you will find it is not me that doesn't grasp the concept but, rather, I suspect, that it is a large percentage of the people who own one and haven't grasped the concept. A power meter can be a useful training tool if used properly. And, I think most will agree that many don't use it properly. Further, there is simply no evidence that a power meter is necessary nor sufficient for an optimum training or racing outcome.
Well, if you want to discuss proper use then I guess you need to define "proper use" for what purpose? Then I guess one can ask what scientific evidence there is to support that what is put forth as "proper use" really is the best "proper use" since this thread was started to discuss the scientific basis of this device.CoachFergie said:But true many don't use it properly or know what to look for in a power meter before they even sit down with WKO+ to figure out watts what.
Hence this thread
Polyarmour said:This was a good thread but it's quickly descending into rubbish like another well known thread. If CN don't ban Frank Day then I can only suggest that no-one respond to him, it's absolutely pointless.
veganrob said:Agree. I was encouraged when Fergie started thread. It could be very useful for those of us that use power meters in our training. It is now deteriorating to the level of Frank.