The Powermeter Thread

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Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
If we don't measure performance how else are we meant to ensure he is training and racing right?
Fergie, PM's do not measure performance. They measure power. That is one element to the overall performance. Further, there is no definition of "right" when it comes to measuring performance except as it involves winning. Winning is the measure of performance that whatever was done was done "righter" than the competition. There is zero evidence that invoking power into the training and racing equation results in better performances. All one gets is an additional metric to evaluate performance.
What if his judgement is wrong? I mean he allegedly uses independent cranks because Cadel told him to rather than looking at the wealth of research showing they to don't improve performance in controlled studies published in quality peer review journals.
Team leader and TDF champ Cadel tells me I should do something to get better or should I go search the internet to see if I can find some lame studies to convince me I should ignore his advice? Hmmmm. Which should I choose?
 
JayKosta said:
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Do either of those endorse a PM as more than a 'measuring tool'?

Please elaborate on what you found interesting or useful in them.

No they didn't and I liked both articles. More avenues to use the data recorded by a power meter?

What did you like or dislike about either?
 
CoachFergie said:
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What did you like or dislike about either?
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I was most interested in the assertion that Froome has more 'recovery ability' than is typical.

It would be interesting (and perhaps helpful) to know whether that is due to genetics, training methods, nutrition, 'recovery techniques', etc.

Any thoughts about 'recovery' might be appropriate for the 'Physiology Thread' -
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=20279&highlight=physiology+thread

BTW - I don't have any doubts or qualms about a Power Meter being useful as a measuring device. I can appreciate its usefulness for evaluating performance, and for quantifying exertion levels more precisely than HR or RPE.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
JayKosta said:
I was most interested in the assertion that Froome has more 'recovery ability' than is typical.

Interesting if it is compared to other World Class Cyclists. If I was planning on winning multiple Tour de Frances "recovery" would be an ability I would like to possess!

It would be interesting (and perhaps helpful) to know whether that is due to genetics, training methods, nutrition, 'recovery techniques', etc.

Any thoughts about 'recovery' might be appropriate for the 'Physiology Thread' -
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=20279&highlight=physiology+thread

Or even better the performance enhancement thread. The physiology thread was started with an agenda.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
The physiology thread was started with an agenda.
Since I started that thread I suppose there was an agenda, helping the participants, through discussion, to better understand the physiology behind their performances and what limits their performance. That surely sounds subversive and worthy of avoidance to me - NOT. The "facts" of physiology don't really have an agenda, they are what they are.
 
Hoping one day W'bal will be on the head unit, ie real time, rather than seeing it afterwards
glenvale2.png
 
Presented my research at the Science behind the Tour de France in Leeds. Was well received. With a bit more analysis after submitting the abstract the main finding is that max mean powers from competition are highly variable even if we remove the bottom half the competition data, separate into RR and TT and adjust for TT differences. No surprise that Fitness, Fatigue and Freshness measures didn't tell us much. Now to find some better measures. It was suggested I do a study with sprinters because they always race maximally unlike road cyclists that don't race to hit peak powers. Leeds is an awesome place and having the Tour start there was the icing on the cake.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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CoachFergie said:
Presented my research at the Science behind the Tour de France in Leeds. Was well received. With a bit more analysis after submitting the abstract the main finding is that max mean powers from competition are highly variable even if we remove the bottom half the competition data, separate into RR and TT and adjust for TT differences. No surprise that Fitness, Fatigue and Freshness measures didn't tell us much. Now to find some better measures. It was suggested I do a study with sprinters because they always race maximally unlike road cyclists that don't race to hit peak powers. Leeds is an awesome place and having the Tour start there was the icing on the cake.

Hope you're enjoying Leeds. I am at a conference in Copenhagen with many British friends leaving early to catch the start of the TdF in their hometowns.

As a side note, I attended a lecture today from a professor in wound care discussing how medicine is becoming politicized based on evidence of medicine and cost benefits. Amongst the many problems cited with this approach was that:

1. Those making the decisions for "global" health care do not know how to read and interpret papers and hence their conclusions are often impractical and/or wrong;
2. They often they are far removed from clinical practice and hence are not in a position to make such decisions;
3. The subjects in the papers are not uniform and hence the conclusions made are often incorrect.

He also cited a number of papers by Eccles et al in which clinical guidelines for evidence-based medicine were published which are now in common usage. Anecdotal evidence and case reports do not rate (as in not mentioned) in the strength of this evidence-based approach.
 
Copenhagen, nice!

Yes, some very wise words. I am understanding the importance of performing actual research before I can truly claim to be a science based coach. Nothing like having to defend ones claims among and very highly educated and experienced group.

Next step is submit my thesis, try and get some papers published and then find someone to pay for me to do a PhD!
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Does this say anything about the WKO PMC?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/wattage/rNCiBftDSxc


Measures of training stress in cyclists do not usefully predict maximum mean power in competitions

H.A. Ferguson1, C.D. Paton2, W.G. Hopkins1

1Auckland Institute of Technology, Auckland, New Zealand; 2Eastern Institute of Technology, Napier, New Zealand.

Background
Many competitive cyclists use mobile ergometers to monitor power output during training and competition rides. A training-impulse model is then often used to combine a training-stress score from each ride into measures of "fitness" and "fatigue", the difference in which is interpreted as a measure of "freshness" that might predict competitive performance.

Purpose
To determine the effect of fitness, fatigue and freshness the day before cycling competitions on physiological indicators of performance in the competitions.

Methods
Twenty male and four female competitive cyclists (29 ± 9 y, 71 ± 7 kg, mean ± SD) provided recordings of their SRM or Quarq mobile ergometers for training rides, 55 time trials (16-40 km), and 447 mass-start road races over a 6- to 8-month period. TrainingPeaks software (version WKO+ 3) was used to synthesize fitness, fatigue and freshness scores on the day before each competition and to extract maximal mean power (MMP) for four durations (5 s, 60 s, 5 min, 20 min) from the competition ride. The within-cyclist relationship between each measure of training and each measure of performance was investigated by producing scatterplots of the deviations from each rider's mean training and mean performance measure for time trials and road races in single-day and multi-day competitions. Mixed modeling was used to quantify the relationship as the linear effect of a change of two within-cyclist standard deviations of the measure of training, assuming a smallest important change in performance of 1%.

Results
Individual typical variation in maximum mean power from competition to competition ranged from ±7.1% (5-min MMP) to ±14% (5-s MMP). Scatterplots were generally consistent with a random relationship between the indicators of performance in competitions and the measures of training the previous day, and all effects of training measures on performance measures were unclear.

Discussion
The uncertainty in the relationships between the measures of training and the measures of performance is due to the extremely poor reliability of the measures of maximum mean power. Contextual information about each competition ride might improve the reliability by helping to filter out or otherwise account for poorer performances. Alternatively other measures of performance from competitions are needed to determine whether fitness, fatigue and freshness usefully predict competition performance.

Conclusions
Maximum mean power in competitions is too unreliable to determine whether the measures of fitness, fatigue and freshness provided by mobile ergometers and TrainingPeaks software reflect readiness for competitions.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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swuzzlebubble said:

Road race performance would be highly variable due to pace and power being dictated by tactics and the power output of competitors.

Time trial performance would be more consistent.


Would training, fatigue and freshness measures more accurately predict TT performance?

Edit: I note from your previous post that separating TT from road race didn't alter the findings.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Does this say anything about the WKO PMC?

Yes. It says that it is a semi-quantitative tool the application of which is as much art as it is science.

(FWIW, I've got some other ideas re. why Fergie failed to detect any relationships between CTL, ATL, and/or TSB and performance, but I'll share those w/ him privately so he has a chance to look at the numbers first.)
 
Sep 29, 2012
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acoggan said:
Yes. It says that it is a semi-quantitative tool the application of which is as much art as it is science.

(FWIW, I've got some other ideas re. why Fergie failed to detect any relationships between CTL, ATL, and/or TSB and performance, but I'll share those w/ him privately so he has a chance to look at the numbers first.)

Does this explain the 8 month slip on WKO 4?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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swuzzlebubble said:
You would think so but Fergie was looking at Maximal power not general performance wasn't he?

He was, however 20 minutes is a good TT indicator.
extract maximal mean power (MMP) for four durations (5 s, 60 s, 5 min, 20 min) from the competition ride
 
Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
Yes. It says that it is a semi-quantitative tool the application of which is as much art as it is science.
What on earth does this mean? Semi-quantitative? As much art as science?
(FWIW, I've got some other ideas re. why Fergie failed to detect any relationships between CTL, ATL, and/or TSB and performance, but I'll share those w/ him privately so he has a chance to look at the numbers first.)
I have some other ideas also. Such that his original study showed the truth, i.e., not much to be learned from crunching all these numbers. Guess that is why they actually do the races. Perhaps there is something lurking in there. Good luck finding it.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
He was, however 20 minutes is a good TT indicator.
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But was that a true 20 minutes of 'max power' (after how much prior exertion), or just the 20 minute segment that showed the largest power reading (which might be well below true 'max power'?

Trying to draw simple conclusions from complicated input is not reliable - and that is what Coach Fergie showed.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA