Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[limak_]

Landa and Buchmann: Hold my beer

It's different case with those two. At least they didn't have to fight against their own teams.

 

[DoYouEvenRideBruh]

Remco saying there were no expectations is a lol moment. Well, definitely not after Zoncolan, but what about when he was racing for that 1 bonus second against Bernal?

Being willing to finish the Giro is the right mindset. Pulling out now might help for his goals in the near future, but I think this is valuable experience for next year. I still think he can smash GTs when his time comes.

 

[Jagartrott]

"I didn't have any expectations, only the media was dreaming". said a slightly irritated Evenepoel at the tourbus. "With 2 months of training you can't expect much".

Sorry. No. The first two weeks, he raced to be top in GC.
His comments on May 19: "It ain't over when it's over."

Almeida should be very pissed off when he reads this.

It's a case of wanting to understand, I think.
First, the media caused some hype, and also for the bookmakers he was top-3 material (and he knows this - probably starts dreaming a bit). Then, after 10 days, he finds himself in a very good position, very close to pink. Of course you're going to sound positive and believe you could podium or even take the win. Of course he had hopes and expectations at that point.

But a preparation from zero to Giro in 2-3 months is just not enough, and he probably knew that. Especially when the weather is like this, you really need a very good "fond" (base). He'll be disappointed, but you cannot blame his attitude. I didn't think he was arrogant, and I think that his current will to finish the giro and help Almeida when he can is commendable.

 

[Andre]

"I didn't have any expectations, only the media was dreaming". said a slightly irritated Evenepoel at the tourbus. "With 2 months of training you can't expect much".

Sorry. No. The first two weeks, he raced to be top in GC.
His comments on May 19: "It ain't over when it's over."

Almeida should be very pissed off when he reads this.

Who cares if Almeida is pissed off or not? You really can't take what a rider says so seriously, specially in the middle of a race. We're all human and make statements like that occasionally.

 

[bNator]

To rectify, he might have been 9th if he didn't help Remco (looking at the time differences)

Which is better than Remco. As a matter of fact - Almeida looked far better rider of the two the entire second week. Bar one stage, one could argue that his whole Giro was better.

Who cares if Almeida is pissed off or not? You really can't take what a rider says so seriously, specially in the middle of a race. We're all human and make statements like that occasionally.

Well, cycling fans care. The one some refer to as vultures. They act like "vultures" precisely because of things like that. So yeah, while Remco is at liberty to say what he wants and disregard his teammate's feelings, he can surely expect to be far less popular outside his home country than he could have been. Whether he cares or not or whether you care or not is beyond my argument... I'm just pointing it out for people so that they stop wondering why some "schadenfreude" is going on.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

To rectify, he might have been 9th if he didn't help Remco (looking at the time differences)

If that. Realistically, they would not have allowed him in the break today had he been closer and chances are, he would have lost more time had he tried to stay with Bernal's group.

 

[GuntherL1]

Who cares if Almeida is pissed off or not? You really can't take what a rider says so seriously, specially in the middle of a race. We're all human and make statements like that occasionally.

He clearly believed in a good GC result. He claimed the role of leader explicitely after Almeida's bad day. I'm ok with that. Now claiming that he never expected much, is a dishonest statement and it's especially unfair towards Almeida. Sure, a good GC for Almeida was unlikely after his time loss, but he was in the lead group in the Strade Bianche stage. Did he really have to miss out on a possible stage victory for someone "who couldn't expect much after 2 months of training"?
The team should send ReV home. His form is obviously declining and he looks more likely to miss a bend in a descent than getting a good result somewhere.

 

[Riek s]

If that. Realistically, they would not have allowed him in the break today had he been closer and chances are, he would have lost more time had he tried to stay with Bernal's group.

indeed, that is why is said "might", since that is the best place i saw him. Don't see all the fuzz about him. Only on Zoncolan it might have been a bit debatable whether or not he should have waited. Personally i wouldn't mind that he was given some freedom, but that wouldn't make a huge difference. Before that their wasn't really any reasonable sign he would be able to follow the others at all.

While he is a young rider, who did some great rides this Giro, him being hold back by Remco isn't really one of them. If he hand't hugely dropped the ball in the beginning they would have ridden for him, unrelated where Remco was.

He clearly believed in a good GC result. He claimed the role of leader explicitely after Almeida's bad day. I'm ok with that. Now claiming that he never expected much, is a dishonest statement and it's especially unfair towards Almeida. Sure, a good GC for Almeida was unlikely after his time loss, but he was in the lead group in the Strade Bianche stage. Did he really have to miss out on a possible stage victory for someone "who couldn't expect much after 2 months of training"?

There was a break before it. Bernal finished 3minutes after the winner. So he couldn't go for a possible stage victory. (same for zoncolan) if we assume that he could follow Bernal on both occasions which would have been weird since he couldn't in the first mountain at all. So all this Almeida stuff is only about GC, because there were no stage victories possible. So i don't see this as having such a big impact on him at all.

 

[limak_]

If that. Realistically, they would not have allowed him in the break today had he been closer and chances are, he would have lost more time had he tried to stay with Bernal's group.

In fact, realistically, hadn't he had to work hard in the breakaway and had he stayed 3/4 of the day in the wheels together with Bernal's group (not trying to follow Bernal uphill at any cost, but pace himself steadily like he actually did), imo he would've lost even less time today. I can't see him being wekaer today than Carthy or Ciccone.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

In fact, realistically, hadn't he had to work hard in the breakaway and had he stayed 3/4 of the day in the wheels together with Bernal's group (not trying to follow Bernal uphill at any cost, but pace himself steadily like he actually did), imo he would've lost even less time today. I can't see him being wekaer today than Carthy or Ciccone.

I think both are much better climbers than Almeida. But today's effort, while i think it was the best choice to gain time in the GC, might also have cost him more energy. We'll see next week if he has to pay for it or not.

 

[Volderke]

It is like it is.
Remco came back from injury being 2nd in GC after 10 days.

Who can blame him (or anyone else) in getting carried away, dreaming and aiming for the podium or the win, at that moment?

And while I also thought at a certain point in the Montalcino stage it would be better to keep Almeida in the front, you can't blame Remco or DQS at that moment in the race for using Almeida as a helper.

Just looking at it from another perspective: if Almeida didn't loose so much time on the first uphill finish, Remco would have had less pressure with Almeida as the GC rider #1, and less questions asked if he faltered (like he did the last week), because DQS could have pointed out that they still had Almeida for GC and that Remco didn't have the pressure of being the sole leader. So almeida (and his fans) have to blame Almeida and no one else for his actual GC position.

 

[BlueRoads]

Which is better than Remco. As a matter of fact - Almeida looked far better rider of the two the entire second week. Bar one stage, one could argue that his whole Giro was better.


Well, cycling fans care. The one some refer to as vultures. They act like "vultures" precisely because of things like that. So yeah, while Remco is at liberty to say what he wants and disregard his teammate's feelings, he can surely expect to be far less popular outside his home country than he could have been. Whether he cares or not or whether you care or not is beyond my argument... I'm just pointing it out for people so that they stop wondering why some "schadenfreude" is going on.

I'm not wondering why Schadenfreude happens, but I'm always annoyed to see it, all these people coming out when something goes wrong "haha, I told you so".

I find Evenepoel a little annoying personally, but his environment doesn't seem to help him much here.

It's a case of wanting to understand, I think.
First, the media caused some hype, and also for the bookmakers he was top-3 material (and he knows this - probably starts dreaming a bit). Then, after 10 days, he finds himself in a very good position, very close to pink. Of course you're going to sound positive and believe you could podium or even take the win. Of course he had hopes and expectations at that point.

But a preparation from zero to Giro in 2-3 months is just not enough, and he probably knew that. Especially when the weather is like this, you really need a very good "fond" (base). He'll be disappointed, but you cannot blame his attitude. I didn't think he was arrogant, and I think that his current will to finish the giro and help Almeida when he can is commendable.

I think he said something like "I might not be where we thought I was" after a week or so, so clearly the team had different expectations. I still don't really understand why, one would think they have the people to make a decent assessment of what is possible even if of course they can't know exactly what will happen. If you aren't sure this young guy is going to compete for the win with this short preparation, why not tone down his expectations? Hence I still wonder what his numbers looked like, what role sponsor pressure and PL manipulation or emotions played.

With all the time he lost - it's still not too bad, others lost a lot more time even today. But of course if he already went too deep in the first two weeks just to hold on, they should pull him out now.

Just a bit more about Almeida - it's a bit of a pity for him, but not that unusual, it happens all the time that you have to work for a leader who turns out weaker than you. There have been many riders you would have liked to be liberated. Surely Almeida's angry if this happens only because he's not Belgian and then maybe in addition Evenepoel is quite bold (I think he said something at San Juan like "now Alaphilippe will have to work for me after I worked for him last year and I'm now ahead" - coming from such a young guy that's some stuff). Still, it's not Almeida's last chance, and in the end this is some average business. He will surely get his own chances and I suppose his new team will also pay him well, so this was simply a big development station for him, where he surely learned a lot, got his own chance in the Giro last year, gained a lot of attention and from which he can jump further. Maybe he will even get more chances in the rest of the year.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

If there were 0 expectations then why did Almeida get called back like, including on the Zoncolan of all places.

Yep - pretty much confirmed by De Cauwer, who knows what he's talking about. Evenepoel was (indeed) killing it in training, if you read between the lines. Hence the whole team (sans Almeida at first) had to ride in support.

"Geen ramp voor Remco, iedereen staat nu met voetjes op de grond" | sporza

Remco Evenepoel (Deceuninck-Quick Step) zakte vandaag door het ijs in de Giro-bergrit over de Passo Giau. "Ik denk niet dat we nu minder vertrouwen moeten hebben in Remco", stelt José De Cauwer.

sporza.be

translated:
https://translate.google.com/transl...t-voetjes-op-de-grond~1621867394251&sandbox=1

 

[Riek s]

Yep - pretty much confirmed by De Cauwer, who knows what he's talking about. Evenepoel was (indeed) killing it in training, if you read between the lines. Hence the whole team (sans Almeida at first) had to ride in support.

"Geen ramp voor Remco, iedereen staat nu met voetjes op de grond" | sporza

Remco Evenepoel (Deceuninck-Quick Step) zakte vandaag door het ijs in de Giro-bergrit over de Passo Giau. "Ik denk niet dat we nu minder vertrouwen moeten hebben in Remco", stelt José De Cauwer.

sporza.be

translated:
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=nl&tl=en&u=https://sporza.be/nl/2021/05/24/-geen-ramp-voor-remco-iedereen-staat-nu-met-voetjes-op-de-grond~1621867394251&sandbox=1

His numbers were indeed good. He was protected at the start. Not like this means anything. Having two protected riders for a team that is not expected to carry the race isn't an issue and they pick the one who fares the best.
That Remco numbers were good is what we saw in the 1st week, problem wasn't his numbers,but keeping them after multiple race days. And like De Cauwer mentions in that article:

Soms pretendeert men alles te kunnen meten en weten. Maar de reactie na een zware val en 9 maanden zonder koers kan men niet meten

Somtimes we pretend/assume we can measure and know everything, but the reaction after a heavy fall and 9 months without races is not something that is measurable.

 

[Gigs_98]

I think the right move is for him to abandon the giro and prepare himself for the Vuelta. Let this experience ground you in reality and show you that nothing comes easy in gt's before finally being able to ride a gt with a decent preparation later this year. That said, is he even scheduled to ride the Vuelta at all?

 

[Volderke]

I think the right move is for him to abandon the giro and prepare himself for the Vuelta. Let this experience ground you in reality and show you that nothing comes easy in gt's before finally being able to ride a gt with a decent preparation later this year. That said, is he even scheduled to ride the Vuelta at all?

He said himself he wants to finish the Giro. So clearly he isn't totally spent, but also clearly (and I think it's a good thing) he'll take it easy from here in the coming stages, and will maybe try to get in the breakaway if he feels good (or maybe not. And he will only try to ride a good TT in the end). If he finishes, and he isn't totally spent, I still feel it's a good thing he rode it till the end.

 

[johnymax]

The Remco pick as the Giro favourite doesn't make any sense. I'm not one of those who say "I need to see it to believe it". I've seen enough of Remco to know he'll become a superstar and will fight for GT wins in the future (if he completely recovers from the injury, fingers crossed). But having him as a pre-race favourite for this Giro, in a pretty strong GC field, with so many question marks surrounding him, is crazy. If he was at least 3rd behind Bernal and Yates, I would be OK with it. I think he can win it, yes, I can see a scenario in which he comes out victorious. That would need him to reach his level before the injury. He can do that, but the odds aren't in his favor. There's a much bigger chance Yates or Bernal reach their top shape. Even if we see pre-crash Remco, there's no guarantee his climbing level on multi mountain stages is on par with Yates/Bernal/Landa for example.

Secondly he lacks race rhythm. This is an important thing. This is not like Bernal going on altitude camp and not racing for a month or so. He is without racing for almost 10 months. This is not only about being up to the speed of the peloton, following accelerations, looking at how your legs react. It's just as much fighting for position, riding at the front at all times, using bike handling skills, avoiding crashes, being tactically aware of the situation. We all know how many traps a GT contains. These are all situations in which Remco will be penalised compared to his opponents. A strong team will help there, though.

Then the route doesn't exactly suit him. It's true, we don't know yet what exactly suits him and what not, because he's yet to race a GT. But I think many would agree, he would have liked to see more ITT kilometers. On top of that, the only real ITT is on the last day. I'm not sure that is an advantage for Remco, I'd say more of a disadvantage than anything.

And lastly, it's not like on the startlist are only a bunch of nobodies. There are riders who know how to win, they've won GTs before, others have GT podiums. They have the Giro as a season goal, they've all adjusted their season schedule to be in the best shape possible there. It's not like in some Vueltas when you never know, in what shape some favourites are going to be as they choose the Spanish GT as their plan B, because something went wrong in the Tour.

There are some pro Remco arguments as well. He looks to be one of the biggest talents ever, some of the best GC contenders are missing, the GC contenders present in the race all have some questions about them as well. But those questions are not as numerous and not that hard to answer to. Let's take a look at Yates. What is the unknown about him? The only thing I've come up with is the uncertainty if he can be consistent for 21 stages (adding: his team is also not the strongest). We know he has the form, we know it's a GT winning form, we know he lasted in the Giro for 18 stages already, we know he has improved on that and won the Vuelta. Is Remco expected peak at this Giro, if absolutely everything goes right for him, really that much better than Yates' to outlast all the uncertainty surrounding the Belgian? I don't think so, and I don't think it's close. Remco can win the Giro, but it's a long shot. He shouldn't be the top favourite. I know some riders have defied logic recently, but I think you need to use logic to preview/predict races.

Because I think the guy who wrote the article knows what he is talking about (I was visiting the site even before the site has become Danish only, he was writing in English before), I came to the next conclusions:

1. He is doing it for the clicks
2. He has inside info (Yates is sick, Bernal's back is hurting, Remco is pushing his best watts ever)
3. He is a Remco fanboy and doesn't think rationally
4. In all those years of watching cycling, I haven't learned a thing

Sadly (for me, it might be funny to you), if I had to choose one, I'd probably choose conclusion #4.

I'm quoting my post from before the start of the Giro, where I explained my disbelief in putting Remco as the #1 race favourite, even by some respectable pro cycling analysts. I guess some of them were also caught in the unreasonable hype surrounding him and forgot just how demanding and full of traps a GT and especially the Giro is. Even more so, if you consider Remco is coming back to racing straight from a terrible injury.

If I look back I'd say my post was very reasonable and almost spot on. I have to say Remco's Giro so far is very close to what I expected it would be, but maybe even more in extremes. He looked very strong on some stages, maybe even stronger than I thought he would. On the other hand he showed some big limitations, maybe even bigger than I thought he would. Now I'm expecting him to finish the race and show himself in a couple of stages maybe by helping Almeida or trying to win a stage. I think his so called "failure" should only do him good going forward. It'll hopefully help to moderate crazy expectation from the media and reduce the insane pressure there is on the kid.

 

[perico]

I think the right move is for him to abandon the giro and prepare himself for the Vuelta. Let this experience ground you in reality and show you that nothing comes easy in gt's before finally being able to ride a gt with a decent preparation later this year. That said, is he even scheduled to ride the Vuelta at all?

1- If one of his weaknesses is when the gradients are extremely steep like Zoncolan, what the hell good is going to la Vuelta, where they love racing up 15% goat tracks? They are debuting the Alto de Gamoniteiro this year, which is supposed to rival the Angliru with 15 km over a 10% grade. Unlike the Zoncolan, it’s supposed to be brutal from the start. It doesn’t have the extreme gradients of the Angliru or Los Machucos, but hits 16-17% and doesn’t let up.

2- He’s too far into the Giro. 2 GTs in a year at his age isn’t advisable unless he plans to decline by the age of 30. What we don’t know about Evenpoel is whether he can recover over a 3 week race. He can have the greatest numbers in the world, but it could be that he’s more suited to shorter efforts.

Contador, Bernal, Froome, Pogacar, Nibali, Merckx, Schleck, LeMond, etc... all had completed a GT (in some cases multiple) before they won their first. Finish the Giro, do the Olympics, and then prepare for 2022 and a clear shot at the TDF if that is his goal. If you are already 2/3 of the way through, then finish it and set your sights on 2022.

 

[kingjr]

1- If one of his weaknesses is when the gradients are extremely steep like Zoncolan, what the hell good is going to la Vuelta, where they love racing up 15% goat tracks? They are debuting the Alto de Gamoniteiro this year, which is supposed to rival the Angliru with 15 km over a 10% grade. Unlike the Zoncolan, it’s supposed to be brutal from the start. It doesn’t have the extreme gradients of the Angliru or Los Machucos, but hits 16-17% and doesn’t let up.

2- He’s too far into the Giro. 2 GTs in a year at his age isn’t advisable unless he plans to decline by the age of 30. What we don’t know about Evenpoel is whether he can recover over a 3 week race. He can have the greatest numbers in the world, but it could be that he’s more suited to shorter efforts.

Win as much as you can, then retire early when you have almost your whole life still ahead of you, sounds like a good plan to me.

 

[Gregor_Slovenia]

Well, what did I write 3 weeks ago, just before the start of Giro? Just because I trust Chris Froome 120 % and I can see what hip injury made to him. Also this injury did to Remco. You are just not the same after you break the stuff in there. No matter if you are 35, 21 or 85. I mean, you do recover, but in sport, you are just never the same again. It is so much harder to put down the power that you once had. And suddenly endurance becomes the problem. Just as we are seeing now with Remco, being dropped in the valley. Of course the tempo was already tough, but you just can not be dropped on a steady pace with 60 guys remaining. Hopefully Remco comes back once, but no an easy task.

 

[limak_]

I'm quoting my post from before the start of the Giro, where I explained my disbelief in putting Remco as the #1 race favourite, even by some respectable pro cycling analysts. I guess some of them were also caught in the unreasonable hype surrounding him and forgot just how demanding and full of traps a GT and especially the Giro is. Even more so, if you consider Remco is coming back to racing straight from a terrible injury.

If I look back I'd say my post was very reasonable and almost spot on. I have to say Remco's Giro so far is very close to what I expected it would be, but maybe even more in extremes. He looked very strong on some stages, maybe even stronger than I thought he would. On the other hand he showed some big limitations, maybe even bigger than I thought he would. Now I'm expecting him to finish the race and show himself in a couple of stages maybe by helping Almeida or trying to win a stage. I think his so called "failure" should only do him good going forward. It'll hopefully help to moderate crazy expectation from the media and reduce the insane pressure there is on the kid.

Your post from before the Giro is actually everything that needs to be said about Remco's Giro. I think it's still valid enough to end up the current discussion on this topic. Thanks for bringing this back.

 

[Red Rick]

Tbh I think part of considering Evenepoel a favorite was also people not expecting Bernal to show up like this.

 

[Volderke]

Tbh I think part of considering Evenepoel a favorite was also people not expecting Bernal to show up like this.

Yes, Bernal (and Ineos) are dominant and flawless. Without him, Evenepoel would have had a stint in pink. That would have made his Giro more than a succes.

Without Bernal, Caruso would lead (with a decent chance of victory, it seems at the moment) and Carthy runner-up Vlasov 3rd.
I expected Carthy and Vlasov to be solid, but who would have thought Caruso would be a candidate for the podium?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Sounds like the 'critics' were right about Bambi.

I'm sure if you repeat it enough, eventually it'll catch on. Perhaps you could try creating an alt-account to help with that.

 

[Volderke]

Sounds like the 'critics' were right about Bambi.

Yes I was right, thanks. I honestly didn't believe he could climb with the best, but I was more than ready to allow him to surprise me. At least I didn't bet any money on him, I wasn't even convinced about him making the podium.

PS: You could refrain of giving denigrating names to riders. You could say Evenepoel sucks at descending (he sure does!), but name calling doesn't seem to be very respectful. Unless it's a nickname that's adopted by said rider.