Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[topt]

you r funny.

and a happy troll.

he has shown that he can “climb” numerous times. And, of course you know that. Lol.

can he climb as well as Pog? No.

then again, who can? No one.

the problem is the constant comparison with Pog. It serves the haters of course.

however, the way I see it, this is an amazing age of rule defying champions:

WvA
VdP
Pog
Ala

i would put Rog in there but he’s not really the same generation and tho I admire him for his amazing sportsmanship I don’t think he quite matches the natural pizazz of those mentioned above.

now Remco has shown that he is certainly exciting in different ways than any of the above. Would it not be great if he can confirm that talent at the highest level? Just so that we can enjoy these amaaaaaaazing talents…(?)

I think there are at least 10GC riders that can climb better than Remco, so lets say he is an average climber.
Roglic most defintely should be part of this group

 

[Andre]

no...I'll say "Remco is a very good climber"

 

[Big Doopie]

You know, sometimes people like to play with cliches and memes as kind of insider-jokes, which doesn’t mean they’re trolling?

and I quote: “he can TT but sadly not climb”

how, pray tell, is that a meme and it was clearly not a joke. It was meant to rile people up. It was trolling.

when I do it, however, I am always right. ;-)

 

[Big Doopie]

I think there are at least 10GC riders that can climb better than Remco, so lets say he is an average climber.
Roglic most defintely should be part of this group

even if we agree with you, that means that according to you there are only ten riders in the pro peloton who are above average at climbing (you initially said bad). Not necessarily good either. Just above average (or not bad). Wow…

and if you state GC riders, depends on your definition…

to me the only proven GC riders are Rog and Pog and that makes just two. Dumoulin would be my other if he was back to 2017-2018 shape. Please don’t say you consider Landa, Yates, and López GC riders. Lol!!

 

[topt]

even if we agree with you, that means that according to you there are only ten riders in the pro peloton who are not bad at climbing. Not necessarily good either. Just not bad. Wow…

and if you state GC riders, depends on your definition…

to me the only proven GC riders are Rog and Pog and that makes just two. Dumoulin would be my other if he was back to 2017-2018 shape. Please don’t say you consider Landa, Yates, and López GC riders. Lol!!

GC riders are guys that ride for the final GT position and dont lose time on purpose to hunt for stages. Out of this guys I would put Remco at about 10th spot in terms of climbing. Since there are about 15-20 guys that race for final GT position being 10th in terms of climbing is average.

Well, I am quite sure Yates and Lopez would beat Remco in a GT, hell I think even a 42 year old Valverde would beat him in a 3 week race.

 

[Sciatic]

and I quote: “he can TT but sadly not climb”

how, pray tell, is that a meme and it was clearly not a joke. It was meant to rile people up. It was trolling.

when I do it, however, I am always right. ;-)

Because after 330 pages of comments, commenting on Remco has become it’s own CN forum meme, to the extent that there were comments about how few comments there were for one short stretch. But I’m sure my perception is influenced that I mostly follow this thread for the entertainment value.

 

[BigCoward]

to me the only proven GC riders are Rog and Pog and that makes just two. Dumoulin would be my other if he was back to 2017-2018 shape. Please don’t say you consider Landa, Yates, and López GC riders. Lol!!

Yates has won a GT, that for me would suggest he is a GT rider.
You don't think Bernal, Carapaz or GT are proven? That's 3 just on one team.

 

[hayneplane]

Yates has won a GT, that for me would suggest he is a GT rider.
You don't think Bernal, Carapaz or GT are proven? That's 3 just on one team.

Hard to include GT as its at least 2 years since he delivered in a 3 week race. Carapaz and Bernal are definites for that second tier just below Pog and Rog. The others are arguably 3rd tier at best as they have either lacked consistency (MAL, Simon Yates), only had one great performance (Vingegaard) or have so far only shown podium quality (Mas, Vlasov).

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Hard to include GT as its at least 2 years since he delivered in a 3 week race. Carapaz and Bernal are definites for that second tier just below Pog and Rog. The others are arguably 3rd tier at best as they have either lacked consistency (MAL, Simon Yates), only had one great performance (Vingegaard) or have so far only shown podium quality (Mas, Vlasov).

I wonder: I wouldn’t put him in the 3rd tier but where would Almeida be?

 

[houtdffan]

Have to laugh at the idea that Remco cannot win GTs because he doesn't take time in the mountains.

You know who else generally won a bunch of GTs in the TT and largely defended in the mountains? CONTADOR

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Have to laugh at the idea that Remco cannot win GTs because he doesn't take time in the mountains.

You know who else generally won a bunch of GTs in the TT and largely defended in the mountains? CONTADOR

Probably because he knew he could climb if he wanted/needed to, whereas........

 

[Salvarani]

Probably because he knew he could climb if he wanted/needed to, whereas........

And Contador also did outclimb his rivals numerous times.

 

[roundabout]

Have to laugh at the idea that Remco cannot win GTs because he doesn't take time in the mountains.

You know who else generally won a bunch of GTs in the TT and largely defended in the mountains? CONTADOR

if Contador with his level uphill 'largely defended', then Evenepoel would have to be the next Indurain in the GT ITTs to be able to follow that strategy

 

[houtdffan]

And Contador also did outclimb his rivals numerous times.

Yes, but he also made most of his differences in the TT. See his giro wins, 2010 TDF it was the TT that made the difference. Most time was gained in 2009 in the TT as well. Even the Vuelta wins in 2012 and 2014, the TT largely made the difference

 

[Big Doopie]

Yates has won a GT, that for me would suggest he is a GT rider.
You don't think Bernal, Carapaz or GT are proven? That's 3 just on one team.

Pure climbers all. So no I do not consider them GC riders. In the true sense. Again Pog and Rog are the only two right now who fit that mold and can conquer on any terrain.

the design of the routes in recent years superficially create GC contenders out of these riders. If you had even 80km of TT, you would never ever consider Landa, Yates or López GC riders. Lol.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

I wonder: I wouldn’t put him in the 3rd tier but where would Almeida be?

Almeida was 4th and 6th in very weak GT fields. I would put him in tier 5 alongside the likes of Carthy, Lutsenko, G. Martin, Bilbao, Quintana etc. at the moment. However, I do expect him to take a step up the ladder this year.

 

[AlfaLum]

Pure climbers all. So no I do not consider them GC riders. In the true sense. Again Pog and Rog are the only two right now who fit that mold and can conquer on any terrain.

the design of the routes in recent years superficially create GC contenders out of these riders. If you had even 80km of TT, you would never ever consider Landa, Yates or López GC riders. Lol.

You are talking from a preference on how you think GTs should be made. But it comes across a bit weird when that preference leads to statements where you consider former GT winners as non GC riders.

We live in 2022. GTs are what they are. Yates has won one, podiumed others. He is a GC rider under the current racing conditions.

 

[Big Doopie]

You are talking from a preference on how you think GTs should be made.

my prerogative.

And I am also talking about the history of GT cycling. Lemond used to say that everyone knew exactly who could possibly win and you could count them on one hand and usually didn’t have to use all your fingers.

 

[greyclouds]

Almeida was 4th and 6th in very weak GT fields. I would put him in tier 5 alongside the likes of Carthy, Lutsenko, G. Martin, Bilbao, Quintana etc. at the moment. However, I do expect him to take a step up the ladder this year.

Vlasov was 4th in the same GT where Almeida finished 6th (same time to the second as the 5th by the way). Vlasov doesn't have any other GT top-10 result, although he does have a bunch of other commendable results, including already this year, but so has Almeida and he is younger. If you have 5 different people you'll get 10 different rankings, but I'm not sure how you're getting your sorted! Personally, I would put both in a 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier, depending on how much you want to break them down.

 

[greyclouds]

Pure climbers all. So no I do not consider them GC riders. In the true sense. Again Pog and Rog are the only two right now who fit that mold and can conquer on any terrain.

the design of the routes in recent years superficially create GC contenders out of these riders. If you had even 80km of TT, you would never ever consider Landa, Yates or López GC riders. Lol.

That's true, but that doesn't matter that much when all of them have proven to fight for the GC in multiple GTs. Ie, it wasn't like they had good results in one or two GTs with little TT. They might not be all-round riders, like Rogla and Poga or even Remco, but that doesn't make them less of GC riders. Between Landa, Yates brothers and Lopez they have 1 GT win, 4 GT podiums, another 6 GT top-5s and 10 GT top-10s. Obviously all of them lack TT skills above the average, but they all also lack consistency, which is more of a reason why they don't have more podiums than the lack of TT. I'm not going to count other stage race wins, but between them, they also have multiple wins in Catalunya, UAE, T-A, Suisse, Burgos, and others. Isn't the definition of a GC rider to be able to compete for the highest positions in GTs and key stage races?

 

[hayneplane]

I wonder: I wouldn’t put him in the 3rd tier but where would Almeida be?

3rd tier - With his ITT the right course and a Giro in a year that all the bigger names go Tour he has a better chance imo than MAL or Mas of ever winning a Grand Tour.

 

[BigCoward]

Pure climbers all. So no I do not consider them GC riders. In the true sense. Again Pog and Rog are the only two right now who fit that mold and can conquer on any terrain.

the design of the routes in recent years superficially create GC contenders out of these riders. If you had even 80km of TT, you would never ever consider Landa, Yates or López GC riders. Lol.

GT is a pure climber? He is a world class TT rider. What you banging on about?

 

[hayneplane]

Pure climbers all. So no I do not consider them GC riders. In the true sense. Again Pog and Rog are the only two right now who fit that mold and can conquer on any terrain.

the design of the routes in recent years superficially create GC contenders out of these riders. If you had even 80km of TT, you would never ever consider Landa, Yates or López GC riders. Lol.

Bernal is capable in a rolling TT and also excellent in the crosswinds so far more than just a pure climber.

 

[Salvarani]

Yes, but he also made most of his differences in the TT. See his giro wins, 2010 TDF it was the TT that made the difference. Most time was gained in 2009 in the TT as well. Even the Vuelta wins in 2012 and 2014, the TT largely made the difference

He made differences in the TT because he was simply a better TT:er, than most of his competitors.

But he was also a better a climber than most of them. You see, he could do both. Those riders usually end up winning races.

If you cant do both at a very high level, then you wont win. Unless you happen to be in the form of your life one time and everything going your way. Like the Hesjedal, Thomas and TGH of the world.

Your argument or the point you was trying to make does not make any sense and throwing Contador into it to try and prove your point is ridiculous.

Remco is a great TT:er right now. He will need to prove his climbing over 3 weeks in longer and tougher mountain stages. Could he gain enough time in the ITTs and "defend" himself well or even be able to climb with the best? The jury is still out on that. There is really no point in tryna say anything more about it.

I think we are lot of people wanting to see it happen. Cycling will be more fun that way with another great rider fighting for the GT wins. We just gonna have to wait and see what the future brings.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Vlasov was 4th in the same GT where Almeida finished 6th (same time to the second as the 5th by the way). Vlasov doesn't have any other GT top-10 result, although he does have a bunch of other commendable results, including already this year, but so has Almeida and he is younger. If you have 5 different people you'll get 10 different rankings, but I'm not sure how you're getting your sorted! Personally, I would put both in a 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier, depending on how much you want to break them down.

That's fair. I guess there as as many different rankings here as there are forum users.

When I do these kind of rankings I like to keep it as objective as possible. That means only looking at results and not factor in potential, "what ifs" etc.

I have my own personal scoring system which looks like this:

Giro '19 and Vuelta '19 are used as a starting point and I give points like this:

1st: 600
2nd: 400
3rd: 300
4th: 150
5th: 120
6th: 100
7th: 80
8th: 60
9th: 50
10th: 40

Points for the Tour is multiplied by 1.5.
The 2020 edition is multiplied by 1.5 and 2021 edition multiplied by 2.

I've also tried adjusting for startlist quality based on PCS, but it gives more or less the same result.

Here's the top 10 based on this system (adjusted for startlist quality):

1. Pogacar: 5366
2. Roglic: 4146
3. Bernal: 2805
4. Carapaz: 2381
5. Vingegaard: 1902
6. Mas: 1886
7. Porte: 1137
8. Thomas: 1022
9. Kelderman: 963
10. Landa: 952

Again, it's just my own personal scoring system and of most would probably have some objections to it (and most probably wouldn't have Thomas and Porte in the top 10 but that's what you get when you include results from the last three years).

For rererence, Almeida is 28th in my system with 343 points, just ahead of Dumoulin with 303 points and Alaphilippe with 307 and just behind Lutsenko with 380 points and Bilbao with 370 points.

Again, I do expect Almeida to take a step up this year (and Vlasov as well for that matter), as I have pretty high expectations for him in the Giro.