Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

According to his Dutch trainer, Pelgrim, he has found his ideal weight at 63kg. They keep rehashing the theory that things went sour in the giro because, at 60-61kg, he was too skinny and his body was unable to take in carbs. So apparently it had nothing to do with it being his first race in 9 months after an injury, rehab and a short prep that went sideways early on.

So, i'm curious how the trainers at QSA, with all their experience in prepping a GC rider, have concluded that this is the best way, and how all these other teams are so stupid that they have not caught on with riders who are taller and lighter than Evenepoel, who should be weighing more so that the balance between power and weight is more advantageous, and that the body can take in carbs better. Clearly the guys at Ineos are a bunch of incompetent dumbasses as they have been training their GC riders to be lighter, and they have been highly, errr, unsuccessful?

Klaar voor “eerste grote test” in de Vuelta: meeste twijfels zijn weg, maar deze laatste vraagtekens moet Remco Evenepoel nog wegwerken

“Noem het maar een eerste grote test.” Aldus Remco Evenepoel over de Vuelta, die vrijdag start. Veel meer dan de Giro van vorig jaar – die hij maar op halve kracht reed – is de komende Ronde van Spanje een eerste belangrijke stap in een meerjarenplanning die tot succes in grote rondes moet...

www.nieuwsblad.be

 

[spalco]

In the last 30 years, Nibali is the only Vuelta winner to go on to win the Tour. Ullrich, Contador and Froome won the Tour first (in real time in Froome's case)

I think that's an outlier due to the small sample size of GT winners. It is an interesting statistic, but i don't see how it means much. I could also interpret it as 'the vuelta is more difficult to win than the tour for a young rider'.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So is Remco ready for the battle of the century against Primoz aka Mr Broken Spine?

 

[Riek s]

According to his Dutch trainer, Pelgrim, he has found his ideal weight at 63kg. They keep rehashing the theory that things went sour in the giro because, at 60-61kg, he was too skinny and his body was unable to take in carbs. So apparently it had nothing to do with it being his first race in 9 months after an injury, rehab and a short prep that went sideways early on.

So, i'm curious how the trainers at QSA, with all their experience in prepping a GC rider, have concluded that this is the best way, and how all these other teams are so stupid that they have not caught on with riders who are taller and lighter than Evenepoel, who should be weighing more so that the balance between power and weight is more advantageous, and that the body can take in carbs better. Clearly the guys at Ineos are a bunch of incompetent dumbasses as they have been training their GC riders to be lighter, and they have been highly, errr, unsuccessful?

Klaar voor “eerste grote test” in de Vuelta: meeste twijfels zijn weg, maar deze laatste vraagtekens moet Remco Evenepoel nog wegwerken

“Noem het maar een eerste grote test.” Aldus Remco Evenepoel over de Vuelta, die vrijdag start. Veel meer dan de Giro van vorig jaar – die hij maar op halve kracht reed – is de komende Ronde van Spanje een eerste belangrijke stap in een meerjarenplanning die tot succes in grote rondes moet...

www.nieuwsblad.be

That or the super low weight riders who do well over 3 weeks are powered in the other forum.

 

[Red Rick]

That or the super low weight riders who do well over 3 weeks are powered in the other forum.

Natural body shape though.

 

[peterfin]

According to his Dutch trainer, Pelgrim, he has found his ideal weight at 63kg. They keep rehashing the theory that things went sour in the giro because, at 60-61kg, he was too skinny and his body was unable to take in carbs. So apparently it had nothing to do with it being his first race in 9 months after an injury, rehab and a short prep that went sideways early on.

So, i'm curious how the trainers at QSA, with all their experience in prepping a GC rider, have concluded that this is the best way, and how all these other teams are so stupid that they have not caught on with riders who are taller and lighter than Evenepoel, who should be weighing more so that the balance between power and weight is more advantageous, and that the body can take in carbs better. Clearly the guys at Ineos are a bunch of incompetent dumbasses as they have been training their GC riders to be lighter, and they have been highly, errr, unsuccessful?

Klaar voor “eerste grote test” in de Vuelta: meeste twijfels zijn weg, maar deze laatste vraagtekens moet Remco Evenepoel nog wegwerken

“Noem het maar een eerste grote test.” Aldus Remco Evenepoel over de Vuelta, die vrijdag start. Veel meer dan de Giro van vorig jaar – die hij maar op halve kracht reed – is de komende Ronde van Spanje een eerste belangrijke stap in een meerjarenplanning die tot succes in grote rondes moet...

www.nieuwsblad.be

I think Pelgrim has his own ideas and uses science like a good politician (when it favours his ideas). I sent him an email earlier this year with a recent peer reviewed paper on cycling in cold conditions (supported by Intermarche-Wanty G btw) and a detailed overview with the 7-8 times Remco failed in the cold, hinting that his morning preparation, hydration or cold protection may be insufficient. I never got even the smallest reply. I assume it went straight to the trash bin.

 

[stekelegel]

It is not uncommon to start a grand tour with a bit of reserve/extra kg and to gradually shed weight once the big cols stages arrive. And he is a bit more stocky then some other riders.
One of the most important things in a GT is the ability to take in the carbs, day after day, week after week. Jan Bakelants said this is one of the most underrated aspects of riders who shine in the second and third week of GT's: they eat well, they digest well, they sleep well, keeping legs and mind fresh. And it's something you can't predict, practice, see on strava.

 

[Extinction]

i largely agree with you.

however, the greatest TDF ever would not have been without it since Fignon's Castorama squad took 50+ seconds off of Lemond's ADR. A very different race would likely have taken place without it...

i also think the event is one of the most beautiful to watch.

;-)

I agree with you too, it's just in principle, especially in today's cycling, I think it would be better as a non-GC discipline (something along the lines of what Logic has suggested).

 

[QueenStagiaire]

According to his Dutch trainer, Pelgrim, he has found his ideal weight at 63kg. They keep rehashing the theory that things went sour in the giro because, at 60-61kg, he was too skinny and his body was unable to take in carbs. So apparently it had nothing to do with it being his first race in 9 months after an injury, rehab and a short prep that went sideways early on.

So, i'm curious how the trainers at QSA, with all their experience in prepping a GC rider, have concluded that this is the best way, and how all these other teams are so stupid that they have not caught on with riders who are taller and lighter than Evenepoel, who should be weighing more so that the balance between power and weight is more advantageous, and that the body can take in carbs better. Clearly the guys at Ineos are a bunch of incompetent dumbasses as they have been training their GC riders to be lighter, and they have been highly, errr, unsuccessful?

Klaar voor “eerste grote test” in de Vuelta: meeste twijfels zijn weg, maar deze laatste vraagtekens moet Remco Evenepoel nog wegwerken

“Noem het maar een eerste grote test.” Aldus Remco Evenepoel over de Vuelta, die vrijdag start. Veel meer dan de Giro van vorig jaar – die hij maar op halve kracht reed – is de komende Ronde van Spanje een eerste belangrijke stap in een meerjarenplanning die tot succes in grote rondes moet...

www.nieuwsblad.be

I thought ideal weight and differing body types were established sports science? Normally this is more of a sprinter and time trialist issue because they don‘t need good watts/kg. I think it’s very plausible that Remco just can‘t go lower with his weight which doesn’t mean that Vingegaard should just weigh 3 Kilos more.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think having a TTT while making it essentially mean nothing in GC is a terrible idea. The best part of the TTT is it forces teams to pick one or two rouleur/TT types that they otherwise wouldn't have picked, and therefore being weaker in mountainous terrain, making the race potentially harder to control in the mountains.

Im a bit torn, as I heavily dislike very short TTT's and think they are a meme and useless for the race, but on the other hand don't like plus 40-50 TTT as the advantage is simply to great for the big teams ON TOP OFF already being better off riding for those teams in the other stages. Its quite a conundrum to me, so I guess a TTT around 20-30 km is fine in that it keeps time gaps in check while it still means something.

 

[LucVdB]

I was listening to an interview with journalist Hans Vandeweghe and José de Cauwer, and the impression I got was some in the team truly believed in Remco's chances in the Giro last year (trainer Koen Pelgrim and others), while (only?) the team doctor thought it was nonsense.

De Cauwer called what happened in the Giro 'some of the dumbest stuff I've seen in the last 20 years in cycling', and that it showed a lack of respect for what's needed to last 3 weeks in a grand tour.

Kind of worrying. I hope the team have got their ducks in a row this time.

Source: Sporza, at about the 47 minute mark

 

[Pirazziattacks]

It is not uncommon to start a grand tour with a bit of reserve/extra kg and to gradually shed weight once the big cols stages arrive. And he is a bit more stocky then some other riders.
One of the most important things in a GT is the ability to take in the carbs, day after day, week after week. Jan Bakelants said this is one of the most underrated aspects of riders who shine in the second and third week of GT's: they eat well, they digest well, they sleep well, keeping legs and mind fresh. And it's something you can't predict, practice, see on strava.

Trying to analyse how individual pros are training as an amateur is a waste of time I think. There's just not enough transparency unless you're getting all the same info their coaches do. Sometimes you get someone putting lots of info on how they train out their like Nils van der Poel did, but he's not even a competitive cyclist either.

Occasionally there are comments made about broader training philosophy like people associated with UAE talking about a heavy endurance focus and actually reducing training hours, but it's hard to know how that really compares with what others are doing.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I thought ideal weight and differing body types were established sports science? Normally this is more of a sprinter and time trialist issue because they don‘t need good watts/kg. I think it’s very plausible that Remco just can‘t go lower with his weight which doesn’t mean that Vingegaard should just weigh 3 Kilos more.

I'm sure that it depends from person to person, i'm also not stating that he has to weigh 56kg like others his height. But at 1m71 and 63kg, he has to be the outliest outlier (i know that's not a word) for a rider wanting to go for GC since... Indurain? Compared to his height, i don't know of any other GC rider that comes close. Roglic is 2kg heavier but also 6cm taller. And many of them are considerably taller AND lighter. Obviously one GC rider has to be the heaviest in relation to his height, but it doesn't instill me with great confidence.

The fact that Pelgrim completely screwed up last year with his prep for the Giro and read the entire situation wrong, and now blames it on his weight at the time (while completely ignoring all the other factors after his crash) is like one giant red flag to me. Also, he has already gone lower in weight, his entire successful 2020 campaign he was lighter than 63kg. Dusing the Giro he was 60kg and he performed for 2 weeks. Now Pelgrim blames it on his weight and ignores the giant elephant in the room, his comeback after his crash.

 

[ice&fire]

I think having a TTT while making it essentially mean nothing in GC is a terrible idea. The best part of the TTT is it forces teams to pick one or two rouleur/TT types that they otherwise wouldn't have picked, and therefore being weaker in mountainous terrain, making the race potentially harder to control in the mountains.

Im a bit torn, as I heavily dislike very short TTT's and think they are a meme and useless for the race, but on the other hand don't like plus 40-50 TTT as the advantage is simply to great for the big teams ON TOP OFF already being better off riding for those teams in the other stages. Its quite a conundrum to me, so I guess a TTT around 20-30 km is fine in that it keeps time gaps in check while it still means something.

A short TTT to start the race also allows fans at the road to see all riders and teams in action in a shorter span of time than an ITT and minimises the potential impact of changing weather conditions and random start times assigned to riders by their teams.

 

[Netserk]

But at 1m71 and 63kg, he has to be the outliest outlier (i know that's not a word) for a rider wanting to go for GC since... Indurain?

Cadel Evans.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Cadel Evans.

Not even him. Evans is listed at 64kg, but he is also 3cm taller. Also, from a scientific article comparing his lab results, it shows that at top peak Evans was actually below 63kg.

 

[Extinction]

According to his Dutch trainer, Pelgrim, he has found his ideal weight at 63kg. They keep rehashing the theory that things went sour in the giro because, at 60-61kg, he was too skinny and his body was unable to take in carbs. So apparently it had nothing to do with it being his first race in 9 months after an injury, rehab and a short prep that went sideways early on.

So, i'm curious how the trainers at QSA, with all their experience in prepping a GC rider, have concluded that this is the best way, and how all these other teams are so stupid that they have not caught on with riders who are taller and lighter than Evenepoel, who should be weighing more so that the balance between power and weight is more advantageous, and that the body can take in carbs better. Clearly the guys at Ineos are a bunch of incompetent dumbasses as they have been training their GC riders to be lighter, and they have been highly, errr, unsuccessful?

Klaar voor “eerste grote test” in de Vuelta: meeste twijfels zijn weg, maar deze laatste vraagtekens moet Remco Evenepoel nog wegwerken

“Noem het maar een eerste grote test.” Aldus Remco Evenepoel over de Vuelta, die vrijdag start. Veel meer dan de Giro van vorig jaar – die hij maar op halve kracht reed – is de komende Ronde van Spanje een eerste belangrijke stap in een meerjarenplanning die tot succes in grote rondes moet...

www.nieuwsblad.be

They better not screw it up with his friggin weight this time, which had nothing to do with his performance at the Giro last year, but lack of even moderately adequite prep, or else they should fire his trainer. Look at how terribly lean prime Froome was and his success rate, for example, or skeletal Vingegaard this year at the Tour! 63 sounds too freekin heavy for his height/stature!

 

[Bonimenier]

Not even him. Evans is listed at 64kg, but he is also 3cm taller. Also, from a scientific article comparing his lab results, it shows that at top peak Evans was actually below 63kg.

Armstrong

 

[tobydawq]

I think having a TTT while making it essentially mean nothing in GC is a terrible idea. The best part of the TTT is it forces teams to pick one or two rouleur/TT types that they otherwise wouldn't have picked, and therefore being weaker in mountainous terrain, making the race potentially harder to control in the mountains.

Im a bit torn, as I heavily dislike very short TTT's and think they are a meme and useless for the race, but on the other hand don't like plus 40-50 TTT as the advantage is simply to great for the big teams ON TOP OFF already being better off riding for those teams in the other stages. Its quite a conundrum to me, so I guess a TTT around 20-30 km is fine in that it keeps time gaps in check while it still means something.

People are really to liberal with the word meme.... It's almost being a meme in itself. Which would be quite me(me)ta.

I think it has an okay length if it absolutely have to be there, and considering how rarely it happens these days, I'll probably live with it.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Remco's weight sure wasn't a problem on a 4 km, 10% climb that he obliterated everyone in San Sebastian..

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Remco's weight sure wasn't a problem on a 4 km, 10% climb that he obliterated everyone in San Sebastian..

Obviously Remco's w/kg proved to be impressive on some single climbs but on multiple mountain stages with multiple cols carrying bigger body could become a problem, at least recovery wise.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Remco's weight sure wasn't a problem on a 4 km, 10% climb that he obliterated everyone in San Sebastian..

As Krzysztof pointed out, one 10 minute climb is no 3 week GT. It wouldn't be the first time a heavier rider succeeds on a short climb but is too heavy to contend a GT.

 

[Netserk]

Also, from a scientific article comparing his lab results, it shows that at top peak Evans was actually below 63kg.

No. That was from ~2002 iirc.

In 2014 he was at 68 kg: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/pro-bike-cadel-evans-bmc-teammachine-slr01/

Bikeradar also had him at 68 kg in 2008: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike-cadel-evans-ridley-helium/

 

[Extinction]

I think having a TTT while making it essentially mean nothing in GC is a terrible idea. The best part of the TTT is it forces teams to pick one or two rouleur/TT types that they otherwise wouldn't have picked, and therefore being weaker in mountainous terrain, making the race potentially harder to control in the mountains.

Im a bit torn, as I heavily dislike very short TTT's and think they are a meme and useless for the race, but on the other hand don't like plus 40-50 TTT as the advantage is simply to great for the big teams ON TOP OFF already being better off riding for those teams in the other stages. Its quite a conundrum to me, so I guess a TTT around 20-30 km is fine in that it keeps time gaps in check while it still means something.

I disagree, in the 80s it was often about leaders fighting it out at the head of the race, for which the truly strong guys could mitigate eventual losses in TTT. By contrast, these days the high budget teams attempt, and often succeed, in controlling the race and sending even GC guys out the back in the process. Now give such team/s a longish TTT at the beginning of a GT and it's all but over from the start.

 

[KZD]

Remco's weight sure wasn't a problem on a 4 km, 10% climb that he obliterated everyone in San Sebastian..

I tend to have a similar opinion. Remco clearly doesn't have a super slim bodytype like Vingegård has but as Roglič and Pogačar show you don't need to have such a low BMI to be able to contend for GC in GTs. Maybe in a climb like Sierra Nevada being 1 or 2 kg lower would help but in a Vuelta with this kind of route I don't think that will make such a big difference and at least they are playing it safe unlike in the Giro last year which should help him to win stages if GC fails. He has plenty of time to lose weight for a GT, if necessary.