Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Panda Claws]

That's one thing I dislike about GT Cycling in particular. It is almost never the case that the best of their generation go blow-for-blow in term of tour victories. Rather there is domination with their main rival(s) coming close but only snatching a Tour win here and there.

 

[Andre]

I can just imagine the debate should Remco win Il Giro and Tadej fail to win in France. At least a good 30 pages more...yes?

Go Remco Go!!

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

I agree. We got Valverde's opinion...now we need more riders to talk. Boonen, Nibali, Gilbert, maybe even Landa (although Landa already said Remco is above every one) or something along those lines during Burgos.

Pity that Froome hasn't been at the head of a race with those two to give his opinion.

 

[Andy schleck]

Pity that Froome hasn't been at the head of a race with those two to give his opinion.

If vingegaard next year wins the tour again, froome will say that vingegaard is the best in the world, and not pogacar or remco. He was a GT rider, so he will give kudos to someone that wins the biggest race, not someone like pogacar who can be more consistent during the entire year.

 

[Andre]

...now that I think about it, I'm not sure Valverde will stay retired. He can then watch as Remco improves even further.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Roglic is the best.

The only rider ever to have beaten Pogi by two placings in a Grand Tour.

Unironically true.

Roglic in absolute peak was a stronger climber than Pogacar and Olympic ITT champion.

He did vuelta this year on 2 weeks training with a shoulder injury and was gaining time on remco.

He toyed with everyone in the pro peloton at one point in his career. Obviously he no as versatile as Pogacar or Remco and Vingeggard is stronger thermonuclear climber now.

But I think Roglic in his peak days is the strongest cyclist we have seen in the past 5 years

 

[red_flanders]

But I think Roglic in his peak days is the strongest cyclist we have seen in the past 5 years

But you also seem to think Fausto Masada is some sort of under appreciated cycling savant, so…

 

[sir fly]

Unironically true.

Roglic in absolute peak was a stronger climber than Pogacar and Olympic ITT champion.

He did vuelta this year on 2 weeks training with a shoulder injury and was gaining time on remco.

He toyed with everyone in the pro peloton at one point in his career. Obviously he no as versatile as Pogacar or Remco and Vingeggard is stronger thermonuclear climber now.

But I think Roglic in his peak days is the strongest cyclist we have seen in the past 5 years

5 years ago Froome won the lesser double and unified GTs a few months later.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

5 years ago Froome won the lesser double and unified GTs a few months later.

Last 5 years from today is 1st November 2017 , so you are wrong

 

[Ilmaestro99]

But you also seem to think Fausto Masada is some sort of under appreciated cycling savant, so…

Don't understand how that contradicts anything I said

 

[Andre]

IlMaestro99...yes Roglic gained a few seconds on Remco in La Vuelta, but Remco had just crashed I believe a day or 2 before that.

 

[sir fly]

Last 5 years from today is 1st November 2017 , so you are wrong

What's wrong?!
Froome wasn't holding Tour and Vuelta titles and joined Giro '18 to the tally?

What was the podium at the Tour '18?

Rogla is an outstanding rider, but you're hyperbolizing.
Kind of charming when mentioning Masnada 'cause everything's still in the air, here's some ground beneath.

 

[Bonimenier]

Valverde is convincing Remco to move to Movistar since a huge part of their budget became free after his retirement.

 

[sir fly]

Valverde is convincing Remco to move to Movistar since a huge part of their budget became free after his retirement.

If the team support and tactical nous don't convince him, nothing will.

 

[johnymax]

Lol at people taking Valverde seriously here. He was just being polite to Belgian journalists and told them what they wanted to hear. Nothing to see here. Even Remco himself knows this is not the truth.

 

[Lequack]

Meanwhile.
After his 'traditional' wedding, @EvenepoelRemco had his 'Henna Ceremony', following the traditions of his fiancee Oumii's Moroccan roots.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Well, he also lives closer to Morocco than Belgium now. Maybe he should become a Moroccan to annoy every Belgian alive.

 

[Extinction]

Lol at people taking Valverde seriously here. He was just being polite to Belgian journalists and told them what they wanted to hear. Nothing to see here. Even Remco himself knows this is not the truth.

Exactly, an old senile man spewing nonsense....but if he actually had something worth reconing?

 

[Bonimenier]

Pogacar failed to win any of his 3 biggest goals this season, while Evenepoel won all 3. That says enough.

 

[Extinction]

Pogacar failed to win any of his 3 biggest goals this season, while Evenepoel won all 3. That says enough.

Let us be serious, Pog is prodigous, for which the next years are destined to be like those we have not seen for some decades.

 

[hayneplane]

Well, he also lives closer to Morocco than Belgium now. Maybe he should become a Moroccan to annoy every Belgian alive.

Would never need to have any team leader squabbling at the Worlds

 

[Extinction]

Meanwhile.
After his 'traditional' wedding, @EvenepoelRemco had his 'Henna Ceremony', following the traditions of his fiancee Oumii's Moroccan roots.

I love this, the world should be one.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Let me get this straight. First, you argue that Valverde's opinion "opens up the discussion/debate, no matter what Pogacar has achieved so far," indicating you think it is worth sharing subjective assessments, setting aside some objective truths (Pogacar has won the Tour twice).

Unfortunately, it looks like we will have to wait for 2024 to see the big showdown at the Tour. Valverde's statement, however, was surprising, because it was so categorical, as if what he saw (presumably at Liege, San Sebastian and the Vuelta) was simply mindboggling. And here this opens up the discussion/debate, no matter what Pogacar has achieved so far, also because he lost the Tour.

I then mostly concur, saying these debates are inherently subjective because it is almost never apples-to-apples. This person won 2 Tours, that person won 5 monuments, etc. That is probably half of what this forum exists to celebrate.

Yes I think this is a classic example of recency bias coupled with the fact that AV likely weights Worlds and Vuelta more heavily than others might. Seems similar to the discussion on another thread: what is the definition of the best rider? It is generally subjective unless one rider is better at literally everything. There is no way to make an objective case that either Remco or Pogi is objectively better than the other as they had different targets and performed different if related feats.

My opinion is that Pogi is the best rider in the world, though losing the Tour did hurt his case. Remco is exceptional, but I am not convinced he would have beaten a fresh Roglic in the Vuelta. Again, personal opinion.

You then argue that it is more objective, which I am not really arguing with. You start with facts, you assign value to those facts, you bring in context, then you debate. That's what a forum does pretty much.

It is not merely subjective, as historically there are a series of races, GTs and monuments, combined with Worlds (when the course is compatible with those who win both GTs and monuments - Hinault at Sallances, for example), which determine the pecking order. That's just how cycling is, thus when a rider is capable of winning in all three categories, with a particular interest in GTs (since they are the heavyweights) he is deemed the best.

I then make the point that, if you're arguing we should go by biggest results rather than subjective assessment (the opposite of what your first quote up above said we should do, which was debate this despite what Pogacar has achieved), then you'd have to go with Pogacar's palmares. My point was that doesn't really make tremendous sense, something I am pretty sure we agree on, based on your vigorous posts before and after this.

Right, but in this case both Remco and Pogi have proven they can win both GTs and monuments. So if you’re going by the biggest race, Pogi is above Remco no? And Vingo above all? The Tour is the biggest race in the World after all. If you’re talking biggest races, plural, it’s back to being subjective, as all riders don’t follow the same program and rarely does one win them all. Andthank god or they’re be no need for a discussion forum unless you guys just want to sit around and stroke your favorite riders. Oh wait, I’m in the Remco thread…

And then you go into full on attack mode. Nice. All while pretending like we are not talking about whether Valverde was right or wrong, which is the whole reason there has been 5 pages of fresh posts in 24 hours during the off season. . If you want to go the reading comp route, please point me to where I indicated it would be impossible to rank Remco and Pogi. In fact, just up above, I put Pogi above Remco. You're calling me daft while throwing back at me many things that I agree with and have said. In regard to the second item I bolded, this could be true, or he could be playing to his audience as someone else suggested, or he could be exhibiting the extremely common recency bias.

First of all, nobody here said Remco is currently better than Pog, but Valverde. Is that so difficult to understand? If you want to debate, then let's get the basics straight. In cases like these, a bit of subjectivity enters the picture, yes, because, as you say, we are talking about guys capable of winning GTs, Monuments and Worlds (in reality only Remco has done all three, while Vingo has thus far only won the Tour and Pog lacks the Worlds - yet the Tour is the game changer). What can be said objectively, and this is why your analysis is somewhat daft, is that if Remco or Tadej continue to win GTs (with the Tour obviously having highest prestige), monuments and Worlds, then there will be nothing subjective about it and he is the best. Until Remco wins the Tour, he is below Tadej, but they are much, much more evenly positioned now that Evenepoel has this year won Liege, Vuelta and Worlds with Pog losing the Tour. Vingo is king this year, because he won the Tour, but by a very scant margin, since Pog was still second and won several other premier races (and did so from Feb. to Oct.), which Vingo did not; with Evenepoel now emerging as the biggest challenger. Moreover, Vingo has only won his first Tour compared to Pog's two, with the latter having also netted monuments and several other important events. So career wise Pog is considerably ahead of Vingo, who at the very least must repeat himself at the Tour to remain in contention, with Evenepoel, however, pounding at the door. So the situation is now an extremely tight one, requiring the next few years to get a clearer picture. It is thus all the more noteworthy Valverde saying that not only is Remco the best, but by far. Wow! The Belgian must have impressed him a way Pog hasn't, with Vingo not in the same ring. So if there is any merit to his statement, we should see Remco continuing to do what he did this year, with taking the Tour not a question of if, but when and how soon. If Valverde is just talking nonesence then Tadej's only challenge in the forseeable future will be Vingo. Yet the debate is subjective only in so far as the moment is extraordinary, because we have three chiefs who are presently very, very close in the pecking order. I mean, we're not talking about apples to oranges here, but riders objectively head and shoulders above the rest.

And then we've come full circle to you making assessments about form, indicating a guy who won a classic, beating specialists who targeted the race, was not in peak form.

MvdP was not in peak form.

If you're going to be so aggressive, it'd be nice if you'd be consistent.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Pogacar failed to win any of his 3 biggest goals this season, while Evenepoel won all 3. That says enough.

Tour, Worlds...blanking here, what was third biggest goal?

 

[Bonimenier]

Tour, Worlds...blanking here, what was third biggest goal?

You can choose whatever monument he hasn't yet won, so actually his 4 biggest goals.