Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Extinction]

Let me get this straight. First, you argue that Valverde's opinion "opens up the discussion/debate, no matter what Pogacar has achieved so far," indicating you think it is worth sharing subjective assessments, setting aside some objective truths (Pogacar has won the Tour twice).

I then mostly concur, saying these debates are inherently subjective because it is almost never apples-to-apples. This person won 2 Tours, that person won 5 monuments, etc. That is probably half of what this forum exists to celebrate.

You then argue that it is more objective, which I am not really arguing with. You start with facts, you assign value to those facts, you bring in context, then you debate. That's what a forum does pretty much.

I then make the point that, if you're arguing we should go by biggest results rather than subjective assessment (the opposite of what your first quote up above said we should do, which was debate this despite what Pogacar has achieved), then you'd have to go with Pogacar's palmares. My point was that doesn't really make tremendous sense, something I am pretty sure we agree on, based on your vigorous posts before and after this.

And then you go into full on attack mode. Nice. All while pretending like we are not talking about whether Valverde was right or wrong, which is the whole reason there has been 5 pages of fresh posts in 24 hours during the off season. . If you want to go the reading comp route, please point me to where I indicated it would be impossible to rank Remco and Pogi. In fact, just up above, I put Pogi above Remco. You're calling me daft while throwing back at me many things that I agree with and have said. In regard to the second item I bolded, this could be true, or he could be playing to his audience as someone else suggested, or he could be exhibiting the extremely common recency bias.

And then we've come full circle to you making assessments about form, indicating a guy who won a classic, beating specialists who targeted the race, was not in peak form.

If you're going to be so aggressive, it'd be nice if you'd be consistent.

I'm too drunk to argue otherwise.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I’d take Evenepoel in a tempo course, TT, or climb while Pogacar one that’s a lot of stop and go with the acceleration being king. Plus Pogacar’s far superior sprint.

 

[tobydawq]

Where does the Giro stand?

More than 86.5 hours. Most riders from the Giro wouldn't have made the time cut in the Tour.

Hindley was massively better in the Vuelta.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Well, he also lives closer to Morocco than Belgium now. Maybe he should become a Moroccan to annoy every Belgian alive.

There is nothing better than annoying Belgians!!!!

 

[gregrowlerson]

More than 86.5 hours. Most riders from the Giro wouldn't have made the time cut in the Tour.

Hindley was massively better in the Vuelta.

Hindley's Vuelta was the super peak that only he knew about.

Nibali knew it was time to retire when he saw the times at the Tour and Vuelta.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

And people wonder why this thread has become so big. People arguing about arguing.
No idea the context re Valverde comments, but if I had to guess it's probably in thge context of Remco's win at San Sebastian, his win at La Vuelta, and the WC while projecting a potential level where Remco could get to.

 

[Berniece]

I always found Pog to be overrated, and I was never really impressed with the wins he got in major races. Obviously he is one of the top 3 cyclists in the world, but before this year he was praised as one of the best ever, and no one would be able to do anything about it. While I feel he's just one of the best of his generation, not necessarily one of the best ever.

I also think Valverde saw this. The way Remco wins is just more impressive. I do think Pog is still the better GC rider at the moment, we'll see how Remco grows next year.

 

[Boes]

Has Gilbert entered the debate yet?

Actually he has. A few years ago. I remember an interview on Belgian television where he had to chose between poggy and remco.
This was just after Poggy top 3 in Vuelta and before Remco's fall in Lombardy and he said Poggy without a doubt.

Unironically true.

Roglic in absolute peak was a stronger climber than Pogacar and Olympic ITT champion.

He did vuelta this year on 2 weeks training with a shoulder injury and was gaining time on remco.

He toyed with everyone in the pro peloton at one point in his career. Obviously he no as versatile as Pogacar or Remco and Vingeggard is stronger thermonuclear climber now.

But I think Roglic in his peak days is the strongest cyclist we have seen in the past 5 years

This comment makes Masnada feel sad
Surely Masnada is the best of the last 5 year and Roglic is merely a poor man's Cunego.

 

[sir fly]

Actually he has. A few years ago. I remember an interview on Belgian television where he had to chose between poggy and remco.
This was just after Poggy top 3 in Vuelta and before Remco's fall in Lombardy and he said Poggy without a doubt.



This comment makes Masnada feel sad
Surely Masnada is the best of the last 5 year and Roglic is merely a poor man's Cunego.

Not the way I remember from the Harrogate Worlds.

 

[SHAD0W93]

This comment makes Masnada feel sad
Surely Masnada is the best of the last 5 year and Roglic is merely a poor man's Cunego.

My man went from being compared to Rominger, Spilak, and now Cunego

 

[tobydawq]

My man went from being compared to Rominger, Spilak, and now Cunego

Cunego is surely better than Spilak...

And I think there is a slight difference in TT ability between Roglic and Cunego.

 

[Red Rick]

Roglic is just a better Pog who gets Bahrained out of every big race these days

 

[SHAD0W93]

Cunego is surely better than Spilak...

And I think there is a slight difference in TT ability between Roglic and Cunego.

Yes Cunego is better but this is silly when Roglic is a far superior time trialst compared to Cunego. Only thing you could say was similar is the sprint finish they had. Honestly more out there than WVA and Pozzato in my opinion.

 

[KZD]

Roglic is just a better Pog who gets Bahrained out of every big race these days

Not in the classics, especially monument ones.

 

[tobydawq]

Roglic is just a better Pog who gets Bahrained out of every big race these days

What on Earth do you mean about a better Pog?

 

[Ulle97]

So is it more or less confirmed that Remco will take on the Giro next year instead of the Tour.
I don't think he'll try the Tour against Pog and Ving with only 22km of ITT.

It will be interesting to see the Vuelta route. Maybe if they throw in 60-70km ITT he'll go back there again to defend his title.

 

[Extinction]

The solution is fairly simple.

Pogacar finished the Tour in 79 hours, 36 minutes, 3 seconds.
Remco finished the Vuelta in 80 hours, 26 minutes, 59 seconds.

Pogacar is almost an hour better. Remco would have only finished 15th in the Tour.

This demonstrates how the Tour is on another level, is raced faster, because the teams show up with more firing power, which, as a result, makes the winning time lower. In this case the Tour was longer, with more meters of climbing than the Vuelta, but it was ridden at an average speed by the winner Vingegaard of 42+ kph (the fastest Tour in history). By contrast, Remco's winning Vuelta average speed was 40+ kph, although I think you have to contextualize this with how fast the peleton rides in the two GTs.

 

[Peyroteo94]

We are getting to the point that Pog is a random guy in the peloton... rog is a better Pog... Oh my lord... this site is absolute garbage sometimes

 

[red_flanders]

I'm pretty much a Remco stan, but Pog is a freaking legend already. 2 TdF + his classics palmares? Love that guy. Love the way he races.

 

[Oldermanish]

Let me get this straight. First, you argue that Valverde's opinion "opens up the discussion/debate, no matter what Pogacar has achieved so far," indicating you think it is worth sharing subjective assessments, setting aside some objective truths (Pogacar has won the Tour twice).

I then mostly concur, saying these debates are inherently subjective because it is almost never apples-to-apples. This person won 2 Tours, that person won 5 monuments, etc. That is probably half of what this forum exists to celebrate.

You then argue that it is more objective, which I am not really arguing with. You start with facts, you assign value to those facts, you bring in context, then you debate. That's what a forum does pretty much.

I then make the point that, if you're arguing we should go by biggest results rather than subjective assessment (the opposite of what your first quote up above said we should do, which was debate this despite what Pogacar has achieved), then you'd have to go with Pogacar's palmares. My point was that doesn't really make tremendous sense, something I am pretty sure we agree on, based on your vigorous posts before and after this.

And then you go into full on attack mode. Nice. All while pretending like we are not talking about whether Valverde was right or wrong, which is the whole reason there has been 5 pages of fresh posts in 24 hours during the off season. . If you want to go the reading comp route, please point me to where I indicated it would be impossible to rank Remco and Pogi. In fact, just up above, I put Pogi above Remco. You're calling me daft while throwing back at me many things that I agree with and have said. In regard to the second item I bolded, this could be true, or he could be playing to his audience as someone else suggested, or he could be exhibiting the extremely common recency bias.

And then we've come full circle to you making assessments about form, indicating a guy who won a classic, beating specialists who targeted the race, was not in peak form.

If you're going to be so aggressive, it'd be nice if you'd be consistent.

I love that armchair DSs assume performance is a pyramid of results. Every race is different and the outcome not a foregone conclusion. Otherwise we'd know the results in advance of the most predictable of races: ITT. And we can't and don't.

 

[Extinction]

I'm pretty much a Remco stan, but Pog is a freaking legend already. 2 TdF + his classics palmares? Love that guy. Love the way he races.

I hear you and probably in any race Remco isn't in, I'm eager to see what Pog might pull off. The thing with fandom, however, is that it is a mystery when the rider isn't from your country (it's natural to root for compatriots), but you just want him to win. What is the attraction? You are, just like a magnet, drawn to this or that rider.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I hear you and probably in any race Remco isn't in, I'm eager to see what Pog might pull off. The thing with fandom, however, is that it is a mystery when the rider isn't from your country (it's natural to root for compatriots), but you just want him to win. What is the attraction? You are, just like a magnet, drawn to this or that rider.

For us Americans, it'd be a sad sport if we were limited to our compatriots. And I totally agree, sometimes I think I'm a fan of someone only to find out I'm not when I watch the race. I love that. Your emotions just respond to some and not others, and it's always hard to pinpoint why.

Some examples for me:

• Thought I was a Lance fan (I know...), but then discovered I was all in on Contador when I watched the 2009 Tour
• Thought I was a Quintana fan until I found myself shouting wildly at Dumoulin in the 2017 Giro after he took that untimely dump
• Thought I didn't like Roglic (because I was a Dumoulin fan) and then was shocked that I felt devastated when Pogacar beat him on the last stage of the 2020 Tour
• Then thought I didn't like Pogi (because I was now a Roglic fan) and then found myself cheering him on in every race

It's a beautiful sport!

 

[Extinction]

For us Americans, it'd be a sad sport if we were limited to our compatriots. And I totally agree, sometimes I think I'm a fan of someone only to find out I'm not when I watch the race. I love that. Your emotions just respond to some and not others, and it's always hard to pinpoint why.

Some examples for me:

• Thought I was a Lance fan (I know...), but then discovered I was all in on Contador when I watched the 2009 Tour
• Thought I was a Quintana fan until I found myself shouting wildly at Dumoulin in the 2017 Giro after he took that untimely dump
• Thought I didn't like Roglic (because I was a Dumoulin fan) and then was shocked that I felt devastated when Pogacar beat him on the last stage of the 2020 Tour
• Then thought I didn't like Pogi (because I was now a Roglic fan) and then found myself cheering him on in every race

It's a beautiful sport!

My problem is that practically every rider I became a fan of invariably crashed and burned. It's tough to be a cycling fan and, for once, I'd like to root for somebody who does not end below expectations. Vive le ciclisme!

 

[red_flanders]

I hear you and probably in any race Remco isn't in, I'm eager to see what Pog might pull off. The thing with fandom, however, is that it is a mystery when the rider isn't from your country (it's natural to root for compatriots), but you just want him to win. What is the attraction? You are, just like a magnet, drawn to this or that rider.

Usually how they race. Pog attacks, has a great sprint, lights it up from far out, the guy just wins with panache. Plus he’s a great sport, always with a good word for his competitors, smiles a lot, just looks like he’s enjoying the ride and doing it all the right way, humanity wise.

Now hating on someone, I can have really petty reasons for that…

 

[hayneplane]

Usually how they race. Pog attacks, has a great sprint, lights it up from far out, the guy just wins with panache. Plus he’s a great sport, always with a good word for his competitors, smiles a lot, just looks like he’s enjoying the ride and doing it all the right way, humanity wise.

Now hating on someone, I can have really petty reasons for that…

you pretty much summed up the way I feel about Pogacar and how he is easy to cheer for because he rides with panache and always shows good spirit in both victories and defeat.