• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

Page 536 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Should we change the thread title?


  • Total voters
    116
I asked ChatGPT what it thinks about Valverde's statement and this is the answer: "It is difficult to say how accurate a statement like this is, as it is a matter of personal opinion. Valverde, who has had a long and successful career, may believe that Evenepoel is the best cyclist in his generation based on what he has seen of his abilities and achievements. However, it is ultimately up to others to decide whether or not they agree with this assessment. Additionally, it is worth noting that Evenepoel is still relatively young and his career is just beginning, so it is possible that he may continue to improve and achieve even more in the future." With these wise words of a chatbot we can now end the discussion ;)
Thus basically all assessments are worth the same, according to the logic that each opinion is no different. Well, I wouldn't want to be diagnosed for a malady by a truck driver, but a doctor. This is so typical of a social media world that has no faith in experts, because aparently experts abound.
 
Thus basically all assessments are worth the same, according to the logic that each opinion is no different. Well, I wouldn't want to be diagnosed for a malady by a truck driver, but a doctor. This is so typical of a social media world that has no faith in experts, because aparently experts abound.
Granted, I am biased as a strategy consultant, but do you think that factory workers are the best operations strategists? The best basketball player the best GM? (See: Lebron James / Russell Westbrook).

In regard to your medical analogy, no one is saying truck drivers should diagnose maladies; they’re saying that one surgeon saying another is the greatest of all time doesn’t automatically mean that surgeon is in fact the greatest of all time. That surgeon’s opinion should absolutely be considered as a very strong data point, no question.

Have you seen Moneyball? Somewhat relevant here.

Lastly, haven’t other cyclists, like Roglic, said similar things about Pogi as AV said about Remco?

Regardless, I guess this pedantic discussion is as for a way to waste some time as any.
 
Granted, I am biased as a strategy consultant, but do you think that factory workers are the best operations strategists? The best basketball player the best GM? (See: Lebron James / Russell Westbrook).

In regard to your medical analogy, no one is saying truck drivers should diagnose maladies; they’re saying that one surgeon saying another is the greatest of all time doesn’t automatically mean that surgeon is in fact the greatest of all time. That surgeon’s opinion should absolutely be considered as a very strong data point, no question.

Have you seen Moneyball? Somewhat relevant here.

Lastly, haven’t other cyclists, like Roglic, said similar things about Pogi as AV said about Remco?

Regardless, I guess this pedantic discussion is as for a way to waste some time as any.
Nah, I don't buy your argument. It depends on the individual, of course, but I'd take the right factory worker over any theorist appointee operations strategist, because he knows the job too. In any case, were judging the best worker, not the whole factory operation. So it's not like Valverde said for GTs QS is by far better than JV. Secondly, surgeons don't operate together to rank themselves, so the analogy is moot. And, no, the others didn't say this about Pogacar. Listen if Valverde is off his rocker, I'll owe you a pint.
 
Last edited:
Nah, I don't buy your argument. It depends on the individual, of course, but I'd take the right factory worker over any theorist appointee operations strategist, because he knows the job too. In any case, were judging the best worker, not the whole factory operation. So it's not like Valverde said for GTs QS is by far better than JV. Secondly, surgeons don't operate together to rank themselves, so the analogy is moot. And, no, the others didn't say this about Pogacar. Listen if Valverde is off his rocker, I'll owe you a pint.
  • Generally numbers and analytics tell a better story than qualitative peer assessment, whether you’re looking at systems or individuals. Workers often let biases get in the way of assessments or are simply better at executing than assessing. That’s a big reason why the beat workers are often not the best managers. You see it in hiring too. Generally, SPIFFs and bonuses are determined by quantitative output, not a peer saying, This person is the best. However, I would agree it’s a very useful data point to consider.
  • You’re the one who brought up the doctor / trucker; I agree, that is moot. No one is suggesting you ask a trucker to diagnose your injury.
  • Not sure how to look this up, but surely someone can reference quotes from other cyclists going on about how good Pogacar is. Roglic has certainly made similar comments.
  • Who said Valverde is off his rocker? I’m certainly not arguing he is off his rocker.
 
  • Generally numbers and analytics tell a better story than qualitative peer assessment, whether you’re looking at systems or individuals.
Only when it comes to quantitative production within the logic of profit, with regards to material outcomes. But how do you tell the story of a poem, a piece of music or an artwork? They say nothing about the ineffables, which only muses and vates can qualify. There's a whole thread about ranking the best, analytics and so forth, but Valverde's is about craft.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: VayaVayaVaya
Only when it comes to quantitative production within the logic of profit. They say nothing about the ineffables, which only muses and vates can qualify.
Might be time to let it go? Time will tell us if Valverde's comment translates to results. It was, after all, the opinion of one pro - which other current experienced pros have made a similar comment? Opinions are fallible by definition.

But I think it's safe to say Remco won't be the next Merckx. He can't sprint - ironically Remco is a worse sprinter than Valverde was. Pogacar is a better finisher and for that reason will likely end up with more wins even if Remco is so good he wins 10 grand tours.
 
But I think it's safe to say Remco won't be the next Merckx. He can't sprint - ironically Remco is a worse sprinter than Valverde was. Pogacar is a better finisher and for that reason will likely end up with more wins even if Remco is so good he wins 10 grand tours.
The stats tell a different story. Remco has more wins than Pogacar at the same age. What he loses in sprints, he makes up in "time trials" (in actual time trials and attacks 30-40 km from the finish).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Doopie
I've not held on to anything, but just respond to the provocations. In any case, in the final analysis, it's not only about the quantity of wins, but the quality and of their performances. Señor Valverde should know this more than anybody.
Señor Valverde is not an infallible opinion. Like I mentioned, if someone rides away like that you naturally think WTF - more so in a world championships race. So I can understand AV's opinion, also as a pro with his record and experience it adds weight but that still doesn't mean Remco will win 10 grand tours. Everyone said wow when Andy came 2nd in the 2007 Giro but that didn't translate. Remco's Vuelta victory was very impressive and good to see him finally confirm his grand tour credentials. But it was not crushing either looking at the competition and the final time gaps. No offense to Enric Mas.

One thing is for certain, the next two or three years will be fun the follow but sounds like we have to wait until 2024 to see Pog vs Remco in the TdF.
 
Señor Valverde is not an infallible opinion. Like I mentioned, if someone rides away like that you naturally think WTF - more so in a world championships race. So I can understand AV's opinion, also as a pro with his record and experience it adds weight but that still doesn't mean Remco will win 10 grand tours. Everyone said wow when Andy came 2nd in the 2007 Giro but that didn't translate. Remco's Vuelta victory was very impressive and good to see him finally confirm his grand tour credentials. But it was not crushing either looking at the competition and the final time gaps. No offense to Enric Mas.

One thing is for certain, the next two or three years will be fun the follow but sounds like we have to wait until 2024 to see Pog vs Remco in the TdF.
If Andy Schleck had the mentality of Evenepoel he would have won at least 4 Grand Tours injuries permitting
 
  • Like
Reactions: Berniece
Señor Valverde is not an infallible opinion. Like I mentioned, if someone rides away like that you naturally think WTF - more so in a world championships race. So I can understand AV's opinion, also as a pro with his record and experience it adds weight but that still doesn't mean Remco will win 10 grand tours. Everyone said wow when Andy came 2nd in the 2007 Giro but that didn't translate. Remco's Vuelta victory was very impressive and good to see him finally confirm his grand tour credentials. But it was not crushing either looking at the competition and the final time gaps. No offense to Enric Mas.

One thing is for certain, the next two or three years will be fun the follow but sounds like we have to wait until 2024 to see Pog vs Remco in the TdF.
Andy didn't translate because of Contador, who was stopped, like Pantani, and had enemies to bigger interests. I've never said Valverde is infallibile, just considertion for NOW. Fun inded shall be the next years. Now I'm waiting for the next vitriol.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Cookster15
Sheesh, I feel like people are arguing for the sake arguing. Valverde gave his opinion how much value it has depends on one's sentiment regarding his opinion.

Remco had a year where he was able to do things that hadn't been done in decades.

My impression is that Valverde felt the wya he does because of how Remco wins races, his adaptability to different types of races one day, week, GTs and that he's had to overcomes his terrible crash at Lomardy.

It really difficult to crush other top riders and solo to victory for 30km after riding form 200+kms. .

Remco doesn't have violent accelerations, which are much more exciing to watch, he jsut keep notching up the pressure and then goes and then is able to out TT everyone for the remainder of the race.

Sure opther riders have breakaway victories, but with Remco if you let him go he's shown that he's not being pulled back.
 
Sheesh, I feel like people are arguing for the sake arguing. Valverde gave his opinion how much value it has depends on one's sentiment regarding his opinion.

Remco had a year where he was able to do things that hadn't been done in decades.

My impression is that Valverde felt the wya he does because of how Remco wins races, his adaptability to different types of races one day, week, GTs and that he's had to overcomes his terrible crash at Lomardy.

It really difficult to crush other top riders and solo to victory for 30km after riding form 200+kms. .

Remco doesn't have violent accelerations, which are much more exciing to watch, he jsut keep notching up the pressure and then goes and then is able to out TT everyone for the remainder of the race.

Sure opther riders have breakaway victories, but with Remco if you let him go he's shown that he's not being pulled back.
Ipse dixit. But violent accellerations are only as good as they last.
 
Only when it comes to quantitative production within the logic of profit, with regards to material outcomes. But how do you tell the story of a poem, a piece of music or an artwork? They say nothing about the ineffables, which only muses and vates can qualify. There's a whole thread about ranking the best, analytics and so forth, but Valverde's is about craft.
I hear you. There's a reason I prefer Contador to Froome and Pogi to Vingegaard.
I've not held on to anything, but just respond to the provocations. In any case, in the final analysis, it's not only about the quantity of wins, but the quality and of their performances. Señor Valverde should know this more than anybody.
Andy didn't translate because of Contador, who was stopped, like Pantani, and had enemies to bigger interests. I've never said Valverde is infallibile, just considertion for NOW. Fun inded shall be the next years. Now I'm waiting for the next vitriol.
And here I thought we were having a pleasant discussion. :eek:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Extinction
Dec 13, 2022
4
3
15
Visit site
Granted, I am biased as a strategy consultant, but do you think that factory workers are the best operations strategists? The best basketball player the best GM? (See: Lebron James / Russell Westbrook).

In regard to your medical analogy, no one is saying truck drivers should diagnose maladies; they’re saying that one surgeon saying another is the greatest of all time doesn’t automatically mean that surgeon is in fact the greatest of all time. That surgeon’s opinion should absolutely be considered as a very strong data point, no question.

Have you seen Moneyball? Somewhat relevant here.

Lastly, haven’t other cyclists, like Roglic, said similar things about Pogi as AV said about Remco?

Regardless, I guess this pedantic discussion is as for a way to waste some time as any.
It's definitely just someone else's opinion. It may be authoritative, but it is still someone else's opinion.
I thought about it once and decided not to waste any more time on it. After all, there aren't many things that are absolutely clear to everyone. Somebody will have questions about even mundane things.
But I like the way some experts question conventional wisdom. I haven't met many of them in real life, but among the fictional characters is Dr. House :)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Extinction
It's definitely just someone else's opinion. It may be authoritative, but it is still someone else's opinion.
I thought about it once and decided not to waste any more time on it. After all, there aren't many things that are absolutely clear to everyone. Somebody will have questions about even mundane things.
But I like the way some experts question conventional wisdom. I haven't met many of them in real life, but among the fictional characters is Dr. House :)
But what if so-called experts questioning conventional wisdom in reality demonstrate nothing else but the most vapid conformism? My goodness, deferring to the "expertise" of a Dr. House, whilst declaring "definitely just someone else's opinion" Valverde's, really does make you look not very bright.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: Ronan1001
Dec 13, 2022
4
3
15
Visit site
But what if so-called experts questioning conventional wisdom in reality demonstrate nothing else but the most vapid conformism? My goodness, deferring to the "expertise" of a Dr. House, whilst declaring "definitely just someone else's opinion" Valverde's, really does make you look not very bright.
Ok, so be it. It's just your opinion anyway :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
Ok, so be it. It's just your opinion anyway :)
Ok, so be it. It's just your opinion anyway :)
ana-hassa.gif