Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Cookster15]

Only when it comes to quantitative production within the logic of profit. They say nothing about the ineffables, which only muses and vates can qualify.

Might be time to let it go? Time will tell us if Valverde's comment translates to results. It was, after all, the opinion of one pro - which other current experienced pros have made a similar comment? Opinions are fallible by definition.

But I think it's safe to say Remco won't be the next Merckx. He can't sprint - ironically Remco is a worse sprinter than Valverde was. Pogacar is a better finisher and for that reason will likely end up with more wins even if Remco is so good he wins 10 grand tours.

 

[Extinction]

Might be time to let it go?

I've not held on to anything, but just respond to the provocations. In any case, in the final analysis, it's not only about the quantity of wins, but the quality and of their performances. Señor Valverde should know this more than anybody.

 

[peterfin]

But I think it's safe to say Remco won't be the next Merckx. He can't sprint - ironically Remco is a worse sprinter than Valverde was. Pogacar is a better finisher and for that reason will likely end up with more wins even if Remco is so good he wins 10 grand tours.

The stats tell a different story. Remco has more wins than Pogacar at the same age. What he loses in sprints, he makes up in "time trials" (in actual time trials and attacks 30-40 km from the finish).

 

[Cookster15]

I've not held on to anything, but just respond to the provocations. In any case, in the final analysis, it's not only about the quantity of wins, but the quality and of their performances. Señor Valverde should know this more than anybody.

Señor Valverde is not an infallible opinion. Like I mentioned, if someone rides away like that you naturally think WTF - more so in a world championships race. So I can understand AV's opinion, also as a pro with his record and experience it adds weight but that still doesn't mean Remco will win 10 grand tours. Everyone said wow when Andy came 2nd in the 2007 Giro but that didn't translate. Remco's Vuelta victory was very impressive and good to see him finally confirm his grand tour credentials. But it was not crushing either looking at the competition and the final time gaps. No offense to Enric Mas.

One thing is for certain, the next two or three years will be fun the follow but sounds like we have to wait until 2024 to see Pog vs Remco in the TdF.

 

[Cookster15]

The stats tell a different story. Remco has more wins than Pogacar at the same age. What he loses in sprints, he makes up in "time trials" (in actual time trials and attacks 30-40 km from the finish).

At the same age Pogacar had won the Tour de France.

 

[peterfin]

At the same age Pogacar had won the Tour de France.

Yes but not "more wins" as you said.

 

[hayneplane]

Señor Valverde is not an infallible opinion. Like I mentioned, if someone rides away like that you naturally think WTF - more so in a world championships race. So I can understand AV's opinion, also as a pro with his record and experience it adds weight but that still doesn't mean Remco will win 10 grand tours. Everyone said wow when Andy came 2nd in the 2007 Giro but that didn't translate. Remco's Vuelta victory was very impressive and good to see him finally confirm his grand tour credentials. But it was not crushing either looking at the competition and the final time gaps. No offense to Enric Mas.

One thing is for certain, the next two or three years will be fun the follow but sounds like we have to wait until 2024 to see Pog vs Remco in the TdF.

If Andy Schleck had the mentality of Evenepoel he would have won at least 4 Grand Tours injuries permitting

 

[Extinction]

Señor Valverde is not an infallible opinion. Like I mentioned, if someone rides away like that you naturally think WTF - more so in a world championships race. So I can understand AV's opinion, also as a pro with his record and experience it adds weight but that still doesn't mean Remco will win 10 grand tours. Everyone said wow when Andy came 2nd in the 2007 Giro but that didn't translate. Remco's Vuelta victory was very impressive and good to see him finally confirm his grand tour credentials. But it was not crushing either looking at the competition and the final time gaps. No offense to Enric Mas.

One thing is for certain, the next two or three years will be fun the follow but sounds like we have to wait until 2024 to see Pog vs Remco in the TdF.

Andy didn't translate because of Contador, who was stopped, like Pantani, and had enemies to bigger interests. I've never said Valverde is infallibile, just considertion for NOW. Fun inded shall be the next years. Now I'm waiting for the next vitriol.

 

[Cookster15]

Andy didn't translate because of Contador, who was stopped, like Pantani, and had enemies to bigger interests. I've never said Valverde is incapable, just concidersion for NOW. Fun inded shall be the next years. Now I'm waiting for the next vitriol.

No vitriol. Just friendly banter and healthy differing points of view

 

[Extinction]

At the same age Pogacar had won the Tour de France.

Indeed he did and twice, but we must wait and see.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Sheesh, I feel like people are arguing for the sake arguing. Valverde gave his opinion how much value it has depends on one's sentiment regarding his opinion.

Remco had a year where he was able to do things that hadn't been done in decades.

My impression is that Valverde felt the wya he does because of how Remco wins races, his adaptability to different types of races one day, week, GTs and that he's had to overcomes his terrible crash at Lomardy.

It really difficult to crush other top riders and solo to victory for 30km after riding form 200+kms. .

Remco doesn't have violent accelerations, which are much more exciing to watch, he jsut keep notching up the pressure and then goes and then is able to out TT everyone for the remainder of the race.

Sure opther riders have breakaway victories, but with Remco if you let him go he's shown that he's not being pulled back.

 

[Extinction]

Sheesh, I feel like people are arguing for the sake arguing. Valverde gave his opinion how much value it has depends on one's sentiment regarding his opinion.

Remco had a year where he was able to do things that hadn't been done in decades.

My impression is that Valverde felt the wya he does because of how Remco wins races, his adaptability to different types of races one day, week, GTs and that he's had to overcomes his terrible crash at Lomardy.

It really difficult to crush other top riders and solo to victory for 30km after riding form 200+kms. .

Remco doesn't have violent accelerations, which are much more exciing to watch, he jsut keep notching up the pressure and then goes and then is able to out TT everyone for the remainder of the race.

Sure opther riders have breakaway victories, but with Remco if you let him go he's shown that he's not being pulled back.

Ipse dixit. But violent accellerations are only as good as they last.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Only when it comes to quantitative production within the logic of profit, with regards to material outcomes. But how do you tell the story of a poem, a piece of music or an artwork? They say nothing about the ineffables, which only muses and vates can qualify. There's a whole thread about ranking the best, analytics and so forth, but Valverde's is about craft.

I hear you. There's a reason I prefer Contador to Froome and Pogi to Vingegaard.

I've not held on to anything, but just respond to the provocations. In any case, in the final analysis, it's not only about the quantity of wins, but the quality and of their performances. Señor Valverde should know this more than anybody.

Andy didn't translate because of Contador, who was stopped, like Pantani, and had enemies to bigger interests. I've never said Valverde is infallibile, just considertion for NOW. Fun inded shall be the next years. Now I'm waiting for the next vitriol.

And here I thought we were having a pleasant discussion.

 

[Big Doopie]

Sheesh, I feel like people are arguing for the sake arguing.

never!

on an internet discussion forum!?

I am simply enjoying the off-season posts that keep being added to this thread.

my only goal in life is to have it reign supreme.

 

[Extinction]

I hear you. There's a reason I prefer Contador to Froome and Pogi to Vingegaard.


And here I thought we were having a pleasant discussion.

We are! I just speak directly, but as far as I'm concerned it's always been pleasant to engage with you!

 

[Ronan1001]

Granted, I am biased as a strategy consultant, but do you think that factory workers are the best operations strategists? The best basketball player the best GM? (See: Lebron James / Russell Westbrook).

In regard to your medical analogy, no one is saying truck drivers should diagnose maladies; they’re saying that one surgeon saying another is the greatest of all time doesn’t automatically mean that surgeon is in fact the greatest of all time. That surgeon’s opinion should absolutely be considered as a very strong data point, no question.

Have you seen Moneyball? Somewhat relevant here.

Lastly, haven’t other cyclists, like Roglic, said similar things about Pogi as AV said about Remco?

Regardless, I guess this pedantic discussion is as for a way to waste some time as any.

It's definitely just someone else's opinion. It may be authoritative, but it is still someone else's opinion.
I thought about it once and decided not to waste any more time on it. After all, there aren't many things that are absolutely clear to everyone. Somebody will have questions about even mundane things.
But I like the way some experts question conventional wisdom. I haven't met many of them in real life, but among the fictional characters is Dr. House

 

[Extinction]

It's definitely just someone else's opinion. It may be authoritative, but it is still someone else's opinion.
I thought about it once and decided not to waste any more time on it. After all, there aren't many things that are absolutely clear to everyone. Somebody will have questions about even mundane things.
But I like the way some experts question conventional wisdom. I haven't met many of them in real life, but among the fictional characters is Dr. House

But what if so-called experts questioning conventional wisdom in reality demonstrate nothing else but the most vapid conformism? My goodness, deferring to the "expertise" of a Dr. House, whilst declaring "definitely just someone else's opinion" Valverde's, really does make you look not very bright.

 

[Ronan1001]

But what if so-called experts questioning conventional wisdom in reality demonstrate nothing else but the most vapid conformism? My goodness, deferring to the "expertise" of a Dr. House, whilst declaring "definitely just someone else's opinion" Valverde's, really does make you look not very bright.

Ok, so be it. It's just your opinion anyway

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Ok, so be it. It's just your opinion anyway

You still haven't figured out he IS in fact Valverde? It's so obvious.

I'm kidding Extinction, no offense.

 

[Extinction]

Ok, so be it. It's just your opinion anyway

Ok, so be it. It's just your opinion anyway

 

[rikvanlooy]

Might be time to let it go? Time will tell us if Valverde's comment translates to results. It was, after all, the opinion of one pro - which other current experienced pros have made a similar comment? Opinions are fallible by definition.

But I think it's safe to say Remco won't be the next Merckx. He can't sprint - ironically Remco is a worse sprinter than Valverde was. Pogacar is a better finisher and for that reason will likely end up with more wins even if Remco is so good he wins 10 grand tours.

I was surprised at how easy it was for Remco to win sprints at the end of Vuelta stages (almost always for minor places, but still). His second stage win was also an easy one. Mas was no match at all. I am no longer certain that Remco will never win in a sprint. He improved quite a lot.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I was surprised at how easy it was for Remco to win sprints at the end of Vuelta stages (almost always for minor places, but still). His second stage win was also an easy one. Mas was no match at all. I am no longer certain that Remco will never win in a sprint. He improved quite a lot.

He already won a sprint in Norway.

 

[houtdffan]

He will win many many more races if he can start winning small group sprints. That opens up races like Flanders and MSR

 

[Red Rick]

He will win many many more races if he can start winning small group sprints. That opens up races like Flanders and MSR

Those aren't the type of sprints he'd be likely to win. It is one thing to beat some other climbers for a stage or Lombardia, but it's a whole other thing to beat the Flandrien and Sanremo type guys in a sprint.

 

[Extinction]

Those aren't the type of sprints he'd be likely to win. It is one thing to beat some other climbers for a stage or Lombardia, but it's a whole other thing to beat the Flandrien and Sanremo type guys in a sprint.

At the end of those races, how much energy remains counts as much as explosivity under other circumstances. But certainly the idea would be to arrive alone.