Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Extinction]

Not quite. Pogacar almost doubled his lead of about 14 seconds at the top of the Paterberg, i.e. it went up to 28 seconds at one point heading into the finish on the flat. He ITT'd away from Van der Poel pretty convincingly & only lost time at the end because he sat up & celebrated.

After 270km in Flanders it was amazingballs & not one rider (not even someone like Evenepoel) can be compared to this performance until he does the same in the same race.

Or for that matter, until Pog does the same in Liege. You see, every race has it's own story. No need to make comparisons. At any rate, Flanders with the distance, the crashes, the cobbles, is a classic war of attrition, thus he who is the strongest or boldest, without compromising incident, comes out on top. At Liege the climbs are longer, so it favors the climbing specialists who have huge watt capacity. In this sense it should be an epic battle between them, if all goes well.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Not quite. Pogacar almost doubled his lead of about 14 seconds at the top of the Paterberg, i.e. it went up to 28 seconds at one point heading into the finish on the flat. He ITT'd away from Van der Poel pretty convincingly & only lost time at the end because he sat up & celebrated.

After 270km in Flanders it was amazingballs & not one rider (not even someone like Evenepoel) can be compared to this performance until he does the same in the same race.

I would say i think you are joking but i'm afraid you are not. We were talking about the ability to run away (or close a gap) in the final of a race on mostly flat terrain. And you take Pog's win with 17s and want to tell me it's more amazeballs than Evenepoel in Liège, winning with 48s and celebrating 3k from the line. Or Evenepoel at the WCC, winning with 2 minutes. Believe what you will.

Comparing races is abstract at best. There is a point where the "chasers" recognize they are racing for lesser places and are motivated to use as little effort as possible to pursue. MvP didn't have the luxury of getting off the gas.
They are different races, days and definitely different "chasers".....a group vs. solo, killer finisher.

And i covered all of that in my post. Or do you think Lutsenko wasn't riding for a silver medal? Or do you think Vlasov really didn't want to become 2nd in Liège after attacking from the chasing group? Or that Honoré or Skjelmose didn't care about a silver or bronze medal? Maybe the Ineos duo in San Sebastian also weren't working together and didn't really want to close the gap.

Pretty sure I’m agreeing with you on most of this. I just don’t think it’s automatically a given that he gets back on the final run in if he gets dropped.

Not saying it's a given. All i'm saying in this hypothetical scenario where Evenepoel and Pogacar are both in top shape, going into the final of RVV, that Pogacar dropping Evenepoel on Oude Kwaremont seems more like the natural order of things, given both their skills and abilities. And Evenepoel being at an advantage on the flat that comes after and closing a gap (if it existed) would likewise also be the natural order of things. Evenepoel getting dropped imho by no means would mean he is gassed or spent, he is simply not as good in 5 minute efforts as Pogacar. He is however a better rouleur. Neither means that Pogacar would with a 100% certainty drop Evenepoel, or that Evenepoel would close a 10+ second gap. But i do think both cases are more likely than the other way around. And in such a scenario, i'm doubtful 10s would suffice. On the other hand i could also see Pogacar take more than 10s to begin with.

 

[Cookster15]

After the worlds it seemed Remco was untouchable - particularly after the comments from Valverde. But how soon views can change. I think we are spoiled and have two phenoms at once. As of today, Pogi is the best rider in the world.

But the anticipation of a Pogi vs Remco Grand Tour showdown is palpable. I assume 2024 TdF we finally get to see. In meantime, we can enjoy the developing rivalry in lesser races. If Remco could pull off something similar as Pogi did in Flanders that would really be something. After Remco's incredible ride in the worlds, I would not rule him out.

Personally, based upon what we know, I would rank Pogi superior for grand tours but for one day races I think the jury is out.

 

[Andy schleck]

After the worlds it seemed Remco was untouchable - particularly after the comments from Valverde. But how soon views can change. I think we are spoiled and have two phenoms at once. As of today, Pogi is the best rider in the world.

But the anticipation of a Pogi vs Remco Grand Tour showdown is palpable. I assume 2024 TdF we finally get to see. In meantime, we can enjoy the developing rivalry in lesser races. If Remco could pull off something similar as Pogi did in Flanders that would really be something. After Remco's incredible ride in the worlds, I would not rule him out.

Personally, based upon what we know, I would rank Pogi superior for grand tours but for one day races I think the jury is out.

If you are talking about grand tours and the tour france, we always have to put in the conversation Vingegaard. He is the reigning tour france champion. And what about roglic? It's not just about vingegaard vs pogacar in the grand tours.

 

[Cookster15]

If you are talking about the tour france, we always have to put in the conversation Vingegaard. He is the reigning tour france champion. And what about roglic? It's not just about vingegaard vs pogacar in the grand tours.

I'm talking about Pog vs Remco.

For the TdF it depends upon the parcours. On this years course and if Pogi stays at this level, he comfortably has Vingegaard's measure. I still say Pog played into JV and Vingegaard's hands on Granon. I can't see that happening again.

As for Roglic, Pog should ignore him and simply worry about Vingegaard. If Roglic makes time it drives a wedge between Jumbo's two leaders.

 

[Andy schleck]

I'm talking about Pog vs Remco.

For the TdF it depends upon the parcours. On this years course and if Pogi stays at this level, he comfortably has Vingegaard's measure. I still say Pog played into JV and Vingegaard's hands on Granon. I can't see that happening again.

As for Roglic, Pog should ignore him and simply worry about Vingegaard. If Roglic makes time it drives a wedge between Jumbo's two leaders.

Remco should worry about roglic before even think in facing pogacar and vingegaard at the grand tours.
There's no rivalry between remco vs pog at the moment.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

For now Pog vs Remco rivalry is almost non-existent (they've met a few times but their only direct duels were EC'21 and Tirreno'22 before Carpegna).
Remco's chief rival is Roglic now. Pog's chief rival in stage-races is Vinge and in one-day races Vans. Hopefully there's still a lot of time for this rivalry to thrive.

 

[Extinction]

Remco should only focus on the Giro, which is different from the Tour, some have won or lost the Giro, but then win the Tour. But this isn't always vice versa. Nor the opposite.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If Remco could pull off something similar as Pogi did in Flanders that would really be something. After Remco's incredible ride in the worlds, I would not rule him out.

How do you mean "if"? He already did.

Personally, based upon what we know, I would rank Pogi superior for grand tours but for one day races I think the jury is out.

That seems accurate.

 

[Tommy Gun]

After the worlds it seemed Remco was untouchable - particularly after the comments from Valverde. But how soon views can change. I think we are spoiled and have two phenoms at once. As of today, Pogi is the best rider in the world.

But the anticipation of a Pogi vs Remco Grand Tour showdown is palpable. I assume 2024 TdF we finally get to see. In meantime, we can enjoy the developing rivalry in lesser races. If Remco could pull off something similar as Pogi did in Flanders that would really be something. After Remco's incredible ride in the worlds, I would not rule him out.

Personally, based upon what we know, I would rank Pogi superior for grand tours but for one day races I think the jury is out.

What about LBL 2022 ? The constant need for Remco to prove himself is baffling here....

 

[Extinction]

Liege beacons...

 

[houtdffan]

For now Pog vs Remco rivalry is almost non-existent (they've met a few times but their only direct duels were EC'21 and Tirreno'22 before Carpegna).
Remco's chief rival is Roglic now. Pog's chief rival in stage-races is Vinge and in one-day races Vans. Hopefully there's still a lot of time for this rivalry to thrive.

uh, they also met at 2022 San Sabastein and the 2022 worlds

 

[Valv.Piti]

I don't think the competition and the race situations were comparable in those solos we are talking about. Liege 2022 was, lets be honest, against pretty mediocre competition and nothing compared to facing Van der Poel at peak shape in his best race in the calender, Van Aert and Jumbo and the break up front that might as well have won.

Nobody in the world could do that, and I doubt Remco can ever do that - but I hope he tries!

 

[Riek s]

Remco should worry about roglic before even think in facing pogacar and vingegaard at the grand tours.
There's no rivalry between remco vs pog at the moment.

I rate Roglic on a similar level as Pog and vingegaard though. IF those 3 ride together, i'm not sure we can call it a sure win of Pog or Vingegaard. (excluding accidents)

 

[Extinction]

I don't think the competition and the race situations were comparable in those solos we are talking about. Liege 2022 was, lets be honest, against pretty mediocre competition and nothing compared to facing Van der Poel at peak shape in his best race in the calender, Van Aert and Jumbo and the break up front that might as well have won.

Nobody in the world could do that, and I doubt Remco can ever do that - but I hope he tries!

Sorry, MvdP cannot win Liege and Wout choked in this Ronde. Don't kid yourself, Remco shall do something special in April-May.

 

[hayneplane]

The scene is very much set for the most highly anticipated edition of LBL this century. 2 phenoms in great form coming together for a rare battle in a race both have already got on their palmares.

This has already been a fabulous classics season and the Ardennes field looks packed with classy riders not afraid to attack unlike in the 2010s.

 

[Andy schleck]

Sorry, MvdP cannot win Liege and Wout choked in this Ronde. Don't kid yourself, Remco shall do something special in April-May.

Why MvdP cannot win liege?

 

[Peyroteo94]

The scene is very much set for the most highly anticipated edition of LBL this century. 2 phenoms in great form coming together for a rare battle in a race both have already got on their palmares.

This has already been a fabulous classics season and the Ardennes field looks packed with classy riders not afraid to attack unlike in the 2010s.

Blame Valverde on that one. The ultimate uphill sprinter.

 

[peterfin]

I don't think the competition and the race situations were comparable in those solos we are talking about. Liege 2022 was, lets be honest, against pretty mediocre competition and nothing compared to facing Van der Poel at peak shape in his best race in the calender, Van Aert and Jumbo and the break up front that might as well have won.

Nobody in the world could do that, and I doubt Remco can ever do that - but I hope he tries!

Lol. Come on! Why is it always necessary to minimize Remco's achievements? I assume you conclude as well that his WCC win was against mediocre competition because Van Aert was in his team, Van der Poel couldn't sleep and Pogi was sightseeing instead of racing? The time gaps Remco makes in all his major solo wins show that it is not just about the competition.

 

[nightowl]

Lol. Come on! Why is it always necessary to minimize Remco's achievements? I assume you conclude as well that his WCC win was against mediocre competition because Van Aert was in his team, Van der Poel couldn't sleep and Pogi was sightseeing instead of racing? The time gaps Remco makes in all his major solo wins show that it is not just about the competition.

It’s not unreasonable to point out that having Vlasov chasing you on the flat vs having van der Poel chasing you on the flat isn’t comparable, and so using time gained/lost in those scenarios isn’t very useful.

Generally speaking Remco is of course better on the flat, though how much better is hard to gauge. Having said that, the end of long hard races like this always throw up weird results and it’s far more about whose legs are that little bit better. And if it’s Remco’s who are better I’m not sure he gets dropped to begin with

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It’s not unreasonable to point out that having Vlasov chasing you on the flat vs having van der Poel chasing you on the flat isn’t comparable, and so using time gained/lost in those scenarios isn’t very useful.

Generally speaking Remco is of course better on the flat, though how much better is hard to gauge. Having said that, the end of long hard races like this always throw up weird results and it’s far more about whose legs are that little bit better. And if it’s Remco’s who are better I’m not sure he gets dropped to begin with

Maybe you think MvdP is a much better rouleur than Vlasov, but i actually don't think the difference would be substantial in that regard. I would also point out Vlasov had been sitting in the group without breaking a sweat before his attack, while Van der Poel had been attacking and countering vs Van Aert and Pogacar, putting his nose in the wind for the past 50k. Also nice to see you ignore all the other examples.

What about LBL 2022 ? The constant need for Remco to prove himself is baffling here....

How dare the Remco fanboys simply assume the winner of Liège (solo), San Sebastian (solo), the Vuelta and the WCC (solo), known for monster solo efforts and huge timegaps since his junior years, might actually be better at something. This forum is hilarious sometimes.

 

[Panda Claws]

Evenepoel has not once won a monument where Pogacar started while Pogacar has won a monument where Evenepoel started.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Evenepoel has not once won a monument where Pogacar started while Pogacar has won a monument where Evenepoel started.

Pogacar has not once won a WCC where Evenepoel started, while Evenepoel has won a WCC where Pogacar started.

Yeah yeah, i know you're just play acting.

 

[Extinction]

Why MvdP cannot win liege?

The climbs are too hard for him.

 

[Oldermanish]

Or for that matter, until Pog does the same in Liege. You see, every race has it's own story. No need to make comparisons. At any rate, Flanders with the distance, the crashes, the cobbles, is a classic war of attrition, thus he who is the strongest or boldest, without compromising incident, comes out on top. At Liege the climbs are longer, so it favors the climbing specialists who have huge watt capacity. In this sense it should be an epic battle between them, if all goes well.

Just had a nice meal and had an opportunity to watch 90km of this race and I'll admit to some new revelations. I agree with every element of your analysis and would like to add what was for me a defining difference: tactical manipulation. Pogacar was working the relationship between WvA and MvP from the moment he managed to separate them from the chasers and each other..
Neither of those two guys would miss a pull or allow the smallest gap to remain open. Meanwhile; Pogacar was pulling the slight climbs and inviting them to make the pace on the gradual descents and what could be headwind sections (I couldn't confirm those impacts as there was no sound or visual indications of wind). Tadej dictated the rotation, pace and when pressure was applied until they ditched WvA. You can see MvP respond by drilling the bridge effort to the front group as he would in any race; particularly a cyclocross power-fest. Perhaps Pogacar was that much stronger but I had the impression Tadej set the periods of distress to the very physical MvP and benefitted from those efforts. Again, there was no sound or commentary distractions and to me the strategic domination got more and more effective.
Everyone saw more of the race than I did but what I saw was very subtle and mature working of serious contenders.
That's scary-good racing and there aren't many that can practice that art on that level. He is clearly the best at getting the most out of the race.