Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Krzysztof_O]

uh, they also met at 2022 San Sabastein and the 2022 worlds

And at the Olympics etc. I meant situations where both were actually relevant in the race and were competing shoulder to shoulder. Only two cases.

 

[nightowl]

Maybe you think MvdP is a much better rouleur than Vlasov, but i actually don't think the difference would be substantial in that regard. I would also point out Vlasov had been sitting in the group without breaking a sweat before his attack, while Van der Poel had been attacking and countering vs Van Aert and Pogacar, putting his nose in the wind for the past 50k. Also nice to see you ignore all the other examples.


How dare the Remco fanboys simply assume the winner of Liège (solo), San Sebastian (solo), the Vuelta and the WCC (solo), known for monster solo efforts and huge timegaps since his junior years, might actually be better at something. This forum is hilarious sometimes.

Really? You’re going to tell me there isn’t a significant difference in rouleur abilities between Vlasov and van der Poel? AGR 2019 should tell you all you need to know

But anyway that’s besides my point, which is that a draggy climb like Oude Kwaremont is Remco’s bread and butter so imo if he was in the form required to beat Pogacar he wouldn’t get dropped in the first place

 

[Extinction]

Just had a nice meal and had an opportunity to watch 90km of this race and I'll admit to some new revelations. I agree with every element of your analysis and would like to add what was for me a defining difference: tactical manipulation. Pogacar was working the relationship between WvA and MvP from the moment he managed to separate them from the chasers and each other..
Neither of those two guys would miss a pull or allow the smallest gap to remain open. Meanwhile; Pogacar was pulling the slight climbs and inviting them to make the pace on the gradual descents and what could be headwind sections (I couldn't confirm those impacts as there was no sound or visual indications of wind). Tadej dictated the rotation, pace and when pressure was applied until they ditched WvA. You can see MvP respond by drilling the bridge effort to the front group as he would in any race; particularly a cyclocross power-fest. Perhaps Pogacar was that much stronger but I had the impression Tadej set the periods of distress to the very physical MvP and benefitted from those efforts. Again, there was no sound or commentary distractions and to me the strategic domination got more and more effective.
Everyone saw more of the race than I did but what I saw was very subtle and mature working of serious contenders.
That's scary-good racing and there aren't many that can practice that art on that level. He is clearly the best at getting the most out of the race.

Yes Tadej seems one who is quite in control, or as you put it "takes control", of the situation. He appears to do whatever he wants, which requires getting his adversaries to do what he wants too. Although there have been times when this wasn't the case, the Granon debacle obviously, but also last Worlds.

The other thing is Pog seems to mostly position himself exceptionally well at the key moments, which in a race like Flanders (and especially Roubaix) requires being able to "scrape" by riders, "shave" off a bit here and there to "create" space to slip through. If you can't do this you will be badly positioned and have to waste a lot of energy (also in terms of nerves and stress) trying to make up ground. At the later stages of a 270+ km race that means certain failure.

Now I have no doubts that Remco has the sheer watts to win Flanders and Roubaix (with sheer watts underlined), but it remains to be seen if he can position himself well throughout the draining ordeal to have them in reserve at the end. Whereas Pog has demonstrated mastery in this regard, in Flanders obviously. Chapeau.

 

[Andy schleck]

The climbs are too hard for him.

He already did 6 th in 2020.

 

[Extinction]

He already did 6 th in 2020.

Perhaps I'm mistaken then, however, that was an unusual year. In any case, he'd have to give something up before, probably Roubaix, to have any shot in a normal season. I still think actually winning is unlikely for him, although stranger things have happened in cui cycling.

 

[Cookster15]

Remco should worry about roglic before even think in facing pogacar and vingegaard at the grand tours.
There's no rivalry between remco vs pog at the moment.

I am referring to the Pog vs Remco rivalry in the Forum . And Pog vs Remco rivalry is on the road and in grand tours inevitable and I am certainly not the first here to suggest this.

 

[Open Horizon]

Evenepoel has amazing and unique attributes, but it remains a fact that we've barely seen him duel it out with the fellow super elite of cycling. And yes that matters.

Everyone knows there's a huge gap between the super elite and the rest.

When Pogacar and Van der Poel aren't around, Van Aert reigns as the god emperor of Flanders. When the two are present, he looks like a weak and wounded animal.

This is not to say Evenepoel can't beat his tier A colleagues, but for the love of the cycling gods, let him come to San Remo and Oudenaarde and Paris Nice next year and give us the great battles we fantasize about.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They need to race head to head more often to assess who is the superior rider. Of course, I'm giving the edge to Pogacar because he is making stronger performances in bigger races than Remco. Even in the WC, Remco was the strongest rider but Wout was very important from a tactical perspective. However, I feel Remco hasn't still reached his best years, specially due to his horrible crash. We will get a more clear view after Giro.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Really? You’re going to tell me there isn’t a significant difference in rouleur abilities between Vlasov and van der Poel? AGR 2019 should tell you all you need to know

But anyway that’s besides my point, which is that a draggy climb like Oude Kwaremont is Remco’s bread and butter so imo if he was in the form required to beat Pogacar he wouldn’t get dropped in the first place

AGR? Where he came back with a group of riders taking turns, because at the front they were getting wrong timing info and waited?

As i explained in a previous post, if both RE and TP were to be on equal form, it would not be unreasonable to think Evenepoel could get dropped, not because of form or being spent, but simply because those climbs favor Pogacar' abilities more.

 

[tobydawq]

Why MvdP cannot win liege?

He couldn't even follow Pogacar, Roglic, Hirschi and Alaphilippe the day after having ridden a 70 km solo to win the Binckbank Tour.

 

[tobydawq]

AGR? Where he came back with a group of riders taking turns, because at the front they were getting wrong timing info and waited?

As i explained in a previous post, if both RE and TP were to be on equal form, it would not be unreasonable to think Evenepoel could get dropped, not because of form or being spent, but simply because those climbs favor Pogacar' abilities more.

It takes something special not to be impressed by his win in Amstel.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

But anyway that’s besides my point, which is that a draggy climb like Oude Kwaremont is Remco’s bread and butter so imo if he was in the form required to beat Pogacar he wouldn’t get dropped in the first place

Remco is rubbish in cobblestones, he wouldn't be within 5 minutes of Pogacar by final Kwaremont at this point in his carreer in flanders . Maybe in a couple seasons

And Remco is a great rider , I don't say that to belittle our remco. He would admit it himself. He won a (mickey mouse) GT, monument and world championships on the same season which pogacar couldn't manage. He can compete with and beat pogacar on merit in the biggest races (Liege, grand tours, worlds) that suit his attribute. But in this moment he could not do what pogacar did in flanders. Doesn't mean he is not second best in the world and also doesn't mean he can't become the best. But let's be realistic.

Anyway still 2.5 weeks till remco races next at Liege, we can push for 100 more pages of discussion in that time.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Funny how doubting that Remco could replicate Pogacar's performance in Flanders is considered controversial. Let me remind you that this race is completely different to Liege, San Sebastian and worlds in Australia. And it shouldn't be controversial either to state the obvious: the competition in Flanders was better.

Im specifically talking about doing what Pogacar did in the same race - not soloing in other races, which Remco obviously is insanely good at. Like what guys, come on. Sastre's Tour-win is not the same as Vingegaard's either - the route was very different (alot harder mountains, and required a more versatile skillset) and he was racing against freaking Pogacar, not Cadel Evans and his own teammate Frank Schleck.

 

[Extinction]

Funny how doubting that Remco could replicate Pogacar's performance in Flanders is considered controversial. Let me remind you that this race is completely different to Liege, San Sebastian and worlds in Australia. And it shouldn't be controversial either to state the obvious: the competition in Flanders was better.

Im specifically talking about doing what Pogacar did in the same race - not soloing in other races, which Remco obviously is insanely good at. Like what guys, come on. Sastre's Tour-win is not the same as Vingegaard's either - the route was very different (alot harder mountains, and required a more versatile skillset) and he was racing against freaking Pogacar, not Cadel Evans and his own teammate Frank Schleck.

Well in a post of mine, I specifically wrote it remains to be seen whether or not Remco could position himself well enough throughout Flanders to be able to be up there in the end. Physically he should be capable, but he would have to "shave" off some room in tight situations to not waste energy and here he may have trouble. It just remains to be seen. Given that Flanders and Liege are so different, it's not a linear equation regarding which field is stronger. At any rate, this year Liege will have a really strong field.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It takes something special not to be impressed by his win in Amstel.

I fail to see the relevance of his win in relation to supposed top tier rouleur abilities. Maybe you can explain that. I was also impressed by his win in Strade, but not relevant either.

 

[nightowl]

Remco is rubbish in cobblestones, he wouldn't be within 5 minutes of Pogacar by final Kwaremont at this point in his carreer in flanders . Maybe in a couple seasons

And Remco is a great rider , I don't say that to belittle our remco. He would admit it himself. He won a (mickey mouse) GT, monument and world championships on the same season which pogacar couldn't manage. He can compete with and beat pogacar on merit in the biggest races (Liege, grand tours, worlds) that suit his attribute. But in this moment he could not do what pogacar did in flanders. Doesn't mean he is not second best in the world and also doesn't mean he can't become the best. But let's be realistic.

Anyway still 2.5 weeks till remco races next at Liege, we can push for 100 more pages of discussion in that time.

Well yes of course the cobblestones are the big question mark, we don’t know if he’ll ever be comfortable on them or not. I’m operating under the premise that he will be at some point, since otherwise he’ll never come close to challenging for RVV and the whole debate is moot

 

[Extinction]

Well yes of course the cobblestones are the big question mark, we don’t know if he’ll ever be comfortable on them or not. I’m operating under the premise that he will be at some point, since otherwise he’ll never come close to challenging for RVV and the whole debate is moot

Where there is a will there is a way. He says that if something is a weakness, then he works on it until it is no longer. The pavè, like descending on the strade bianche, however, could be his biggest challenge.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Yes he just can't seem to get the traction on the stones, if Flanders had the same profile but with no cobbles he would have a good shout as he has the characteristics for it.

Believe it was Brabantse Pijl last year he was getting shelled on the uphill cobbled sections when Ben Turner was attacking, weaving around a lot.

 

[Bonimenier]

Believe it was Brabantse Pijl last year he was getting shelled on the uphill cobbled sections when Ben Turner was attacking, weaving around a lot.

Riding on the cobbles there wasn't the problem. The problem was riding next to the cobbles in the gutter. Really not sure where the narrative comes from that he couldn't ride on cobbles, apart from his own words that he doesn't like PR because of his experiences in the juniors. Then again back then the mechanicals were more of an issue than the cobbles itself.

 

[Berniece]

Yes he just can't seem to get the traction on the stones, if Flanders had the same profile but with no cobbles he would have a good shout as he has the characteristics for it.

Believe it was Brabantse Pijl last year he was getting shelled on the uphill cobbled sections when Ben Turner was attacking, weaving around a lot.

Because everyone was riding on the side and he kept riding on the cobbles because he didn’t want to take any chances that would cause a fall

 

[Oldermanish]

Yes Tadej seems one who is quite in control, or as you put it "takes control", of the situation. He appears to do whatever he wants, which requires getting his adversaries to do what he wants too. Although there have been times when this wasn't the case, the Granon debacle obviously, but also last Worlds.

The other thing is Pog seems to mostly position himself exceptionally well at the key moments, which in a race like Flanders (and especially Roubaix) requires being able to "scrape" by riders, "shave" off a bit here and there to "create" space to slip through. If you can't do this you will be badly positioned and have to waste a lot of energy (also in terms of nerves and stress) trying to make up ground. At the later stages of a 270+ km race that means certain failure.

Now I have no doubts that Remco has the sheer watts to win Flanders and Roubaix (with sheer watts underlined), but it remains to be seen if he can position himself well throughout the draining ordeal to have them in reserve at the end. Whereas Pog has demonstrated mastery in this regard, in Flanders obviously. Chapeau.

Remco can learn positioning as isn't the only one. Roglic is still on the edges of some races when there is no strategic reason and no "out" if a big crash occurs. In Roglic's case there is very few circumstances where he doesn't have an available teammate. Flanders revealed UAE to be present for those opportunities; they should also get credit and probably eased Pogacar's stress quite a bit for at least 200km.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Another Remco fan banned before the Giro ! It's a stressful time to be Remco supporter, hopefully peaks are timed correctly and everybody here is unbanned and fresh for Liege and il Giro.

 

[Extinction]

Remco can learn positioning as isn't the only one. Roglic is still on the edges of some races when there is no strategic reason and no "out" if a big crash occurs. In Roglic's case there is very few circumstances where he doesn't have an available teammate. Flanders revealed UAE to be present for those opportunities; they should also get credit and probably eased Pogacar's stress quite a bit for at least 200km.

Most notably Trentin was an eccellent shephed to Tadej. Well Remco will have to learn to slip through the seams in the northern cobbled classics, should he succeed in winning a monument like Flanders.

 

[Big Doopie]

vingo only barely beat that unexceptional rider mas today. means vingo must be complete crap obviously.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

vingo only barely beat that unexceptional rider mas today. means vingo must be complete crap obviously.

Landa must have suddenly improved a ton as well since 2 weeks ago.