Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Rob5091]

We know that Remco has aero-skin, but what flavour is Remco?
“The Tour with Remco at the start would have even more flavour." (Prudhomme said)

 

[Extinction]

I think the whole "he should go to the tour this year"-discussion was a fair discussion before the season/early in the season. If he prepared for the Tour he should be more than ready for it.

They decided against it and that is the reason why "he isn't ready for the tour". How many years he's been a pro, his age etc is completely irrelevant about if he's ready or not. The fact he aimed for the Giro, got Covid and haven't prepared for the Tour with recon and altitude camps is relevant.

Only valid, though, if he must go to win it. It's entirely another matter, however, if he could just go without stated ambitions and use it as a learning experience (also for the team), which doubtless would be most usefull in future attempts. On the other hand, past riders with a dnf Giro went on to do marvelous things at the Tour. But going in without pressure (and a valid excuse not to in building the season on an abandoned Giro) to win the Tour in his first participation is not without its merits, again for the future.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Some sound arguments against him doing the Tour this year, but on the other hand I look at someone like Bernal and I bet he's happy he started riding the TDF as soon as he could, as one never knows when personal misfortune or the emergence of new rivals starts closing the window of opportunity. Remco has a far broader range of targets of course, but I just hope he has a period of smooth sailing to tick some of them off as well as arriving at the Tour next year at the latest.

If Bernal had a realistic chance to win the Vuelta or the WCC... would he still ride the Tour? Or is Bernal just happy at this point to be able to be competing again at all? If Evenepoel would not stand a chance in the Vuelta and WCC, i would also send him to the Tour. In that case there would be no reason not to, as nothing would be lost.

Those who want me to be patient, forget that Remco is special and the patient approach isn't maybe the best for the very special 'case Remco'.
He went from espoir to pro at 19, and BECAUSE his climb to the top is stellar / stratospheric, he shouldn't be held back until he's 23.
He instigated fear in most of his competitors the moment he came into the peloton 4 years ago, and notwithstanding his setbacks, I feel he's ready to excel and show he's rock solid, instead of putting him in an incubator.

Remco is a GT rider and his main career goal is winning the TdF.
In reality, his goals this year, after the GIRO abandon, MAY involve a GT as an afterthought. It's just not very ambitious and his age shouldn't be part of the equation with his potential and track record.
I am looking forward to TdS and hope he destroys the race. If he doesn't, I eat my words and I will become humble again.

He went from Junior to pro by skipping Espoir.
This has nothing to do with his age or with holding him back, but with the fact that he simply did not prepare for the Tour, peaked for the Giro, and has other goals this year that get slashed by riding the Tour.

 

[Venge 82]

Logic, small question to you.

Why would the worlds be affected by a participation in the TdF? I thought the Tour was the ideal prep... WVA is also using this route and he's clearly aiming for the WCC.

Of course, I know the way Remco and Wout would race the TdF would probably be very different. But still...

 

[Berniece]

Why would the worlds be affected by a participation in the TdF? I thought the Tour was the ideal prep... WVA is also using this route and he's clearly aiming for the WCC.

Because WVA and Remco would ride a different type of Tour. Remco would have to go all out on every stage, and this year, WVA will pick his battles. He said that last year he was completely empty after the Tour, and will ride differently this year, specifically for the WC.

Wout van Aert gaat voor andere aanpak in Tour: “Vorig jaar was ik geen mens meer na afloop”

Wout van Aert zal in de aanstaande Tour de France op een andere manier koersen. De Belgische renner van Jumbo-Visma geeft aan dat de focus meer op ritzeges zal liggen en minder op de groene trui. "Twee weken later volgt nog een doel."In gesprek met Wieler Revue geeft Van Aert meer uitleg ove

www.wielerflits.be

 

[Barnacle Bill]

If Bernal had a realistic chance to win the Vuelta or the WCC... would he still ride the Tour? Or is Bernal just happy at this point to be able to be competing again at all? If Evenepoel would not stand a chance in the Vuelta and WCC, i would also send him to the Tour. In that case there would be no reason not to, as nothing would be lost.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I was referring to Bernal riding (and winning) the Tour early in his career, not this year.

 

[houtdffan]

Remco Evenepoel logs 231km training ride with 4,335m of climbing ahead of Tour de Suisse

Belgian rides 'Personalised Liege-Bastogne-Liège' including La Redoute

www.cyclingnews.com

Remco did a long, Ullrich training ride recently. Complete with pastries

 

[Volderke]

This has nothing to do with his age or with holding him back, but with the fact that he simply did not prepare for the Tour, peaked for the Giro, and has other goals this year that get slashed by riding the Tour.

But how bad is his prep compared to those that are prepping for the Tour?
He has done a 9-day stage race (1/3rd of the Giro), got sick, recovered and is now preparing for TdS. That's a race a lot of Tour participants use... as prep race for the Tour. If he wins this / comes out of this in fine shape, he is at the same preparation level as those who used it to fine-tune their shape.

And you keep saying he peaked for the Giro, but you keep forgetting that he didn't complete the Giro. Completing the Giro would be a completely different scenario, as doing a GT depletes your reserves. In Remco's case, he had a good preparation for a Giro he didn't really ride, so his legs are fresh.

And to conclude: his 'other goals this year gettings slashed by riding the Tour': as he hasn't completed his biggest goal (the Giro), those goals were all secondary to the Giro. As he hasn't finished the Giro, and has only secondary goals left, there is room for a goal as big as the Giro, and there's only one race that fits the criterium.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You may have meant it wryly, but I really think his performance at TdS should be taken into consideration. If he is fying, they'd be crazy not to have him at the Grand Bouclé. De gustibus though.

No, that was a serious consideration. And it would be hilarious if it were a ploy, fiercely claiming TDF is not an option, then intentionally lowballing Tour de Suisse, getting dropped on every climb, having a teammate drop out the eve before the start of the Tour, fly Evenepoel in... but i doubt it.

Logic, small question to you.

Why would the worlds be affected by a participation in the TdF? I thought the Tour was the ideal prep... WVA is also using this route and he's clearly aiming for the WCC.

Of course, I know the way Remco and Wout would race the TdF would probably be very different. But still...

Because riding for GC is completely different. There is less than 3 weeks between Tour and WC TT. Van Aert can take some days off, knows he has teammates to do the work when his work is done and can come in taking it easy for the final 45 minutes.

But how bad is his prep compared to those that are prepping for the Tour?
He has done a 9-day stage race (1/3rd of the Giro), got sick, recovered and is now preparing for TdS. That's a race a lot of Tour participants use... as prep race for the Tour. If he wins this / comes out of this in fine shape, he is at the same preparation level as those who used it to fine-tune their shape.

And you keep saying he peaked for the Giro, but you keep forgetting that he didn't complete the Giro. Completing the Giro would be a completely different scenario, as doing a GT depletes your reserves. In Remco's case, he had a good preparation for a Giro he didn't really ride, so his legs are fresh.

And to conclude: his 'other goals this year gettings slashed by riding the Tour': as he hasn't completed his biggest goal (the Giro), those goals were all secondary to the Giro. As he hasn't finished the Giro, and has only secondary goals left, there is room for a goal as big as the Giro, and there's only one race that fits the criterium.

You don't simply hold your shape indefinitely as long as you don't tire yourself and keep fresh. If that were the case, there would be no point in peaking your form. Just get in top shape as soon as possible in the year, regardless of you riding Giro, Tour or Vuelta. And you'll be ready when it starts... it doesn't work that way.

And WCC wasn't a secondary goal, it was a primary goal in the 2nd part of the season. It just didn't clash with the Giro.

 

[Volderke]

This is my gut feeling, and correct me if I say something stupid (I'm not a licensed / educated trainer, I just ride my bike and some races):
You can regain top shape if you haven't worn yourself out in the Giro.

WCC is a primary goal, but his only realistic goal would be a TT rainbow jersey he will maybe wear 10 days next year, and he is already wearing a rainbow jersey this year.

Don Patrick already stated that WC races are often not worth it: long preparation for one race, being kidnapped by the national cycling federation, no monetary reward whatsoever,... So I wonder why he isn't more in favour of Remco riding the Tour.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

This is my gut feeling, and correct me if I say something stupid (I'm not a licensed / educated trainer, I just ride my bike and some races):
You can regain top shape if you haven't worn yourself out in the Giro.

WCC is a primary goal, but his only realistic goal would be a TT rainbow jersey he will maybe wear 10 days next year, and he is already wearing a rainbow jersey this year.

Don Patrick already stated that WC races are often not worth it: long preparation for one race, being kidnapped by the national cycling federation, no monetary reward whatsoever,... So I wonder why he isn't more in favour of Remco riding the Tour.

Then explain why riders peak for goals and not well in advance, so they know for sure they are ready?
Lefevere isn't a big fan of the WCC because of national teams and his riders winning means nothing for him or the team, because they cross the line in a national shirt and he gets nothing out of it directly. He does however get better deals the next year when he has a rider that is WCC.

 

[Oldermanish]

Then explain why riders peak for goals and not well in advance, so they know for sure they are ready?
Lefevere isn't a big fan of the WCC because of national teams and his riders winning means nothing for him or the team, because they cross the line in a national shirt and he gets nothing out of it directly. He does however get better deals the next year when he has a rider that is WCC.

WCC events can be somewhat of a lottery, too. The exception is the TT where rider preparation is everything and few participate that don't expect some sort of benchmark result. Road races are often opportunities for "surprise" winners and can be difficult to defend. It's icing on the cake of a good season if Remco gets results there but the TT is the best bet. Defending the RR title is more difficult than winning the first one, IMO.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Stupid question, what does the second C in WCC mean? World Championship C…?

 

[wheresmybrakes]

World cycling championships?

 

[Extinction]

Ok, so, right, you plan for a peak during a certain period and Remco's was to last between Liege and the Giro. Had things gone to plan, he would have sought another peak for Worlds and then Lombardia. But things didn't work out and after just 9 Giro stages he was "sick as a dog."

After recovering from Covid in what 5 days or so, his level must have dropped considerably, BUT all the work he did in preparation for the Giro will not have just magically disappeared. Nor did he depleat his reserves by finishing a full Giro. Hence, there's fitness burried deep-down in him somewhere that can be worked with to get him back into top shape. Now the million dollar question is how long would it take to get back to top form?

TdS should provide a good indication of this. Let's consider, however, a past example of a rider who in this case crashed out of the 1997 Giro, Marco Pantani, who then went on to set the record for ascending l'Alpe de Huez at the Tour, while finishing on the podium in third overall. Leaving aside any controversial issues with Marco, I'm merely insterested in an example of a rider who got back up to excellent form in the 28 days between the end of that Giro and the start of the Tour. And under this perspective, it demonstrates that one can pull off an excellent Tour when things ended prematurely at a Giro for which one had planned meticulously.

 

[Extinction]

No, that was a serious consideration. And it would be hilarious if it were a ploy, fiercely claiming TDF is not an option, then intentionally lowballing Tour de Suisse, getting dropped on every climb, having a teammate drop out the eve before the start of the Tour, fly Evenepoel in... but i doubt it.

I like that plan, but seriously I think if at the TdS he has sensations that he's getting back to pre-Giro levels, which his trainer said was possibly the best Remco we've ever seen, then I think it would be a mistake if he and the team didn't reconsider bringing him to the Tour. If he's with the best in Swiss, which is every bit of a pre-Tour prep as the Dauphine, then he can't be far off the form of the Bigs going to the Tour. My two cents.

 

[Andre]

If I had a choice between the WCC TT and the road race, I would want Remco to win the road race. I might be in the minority on this, but it's just a preference.

 

[SHAD0W93]

TdS should provide a good indication of this. Let's consider, however, a past example of a rider who in this case crashed out of the 1997 Giro, Marco Pantani, who then went on to set the record for ascending l'Alpe de Huez at the Tour finishing on the podium in third. Leaving aside any controversial issues with Marco, I'm merely insterested in an example of a rider who got back up to excellent form in the 28 days between the end of that Giro and the start of the Tour. And under this prospective, it demonstrates that one can pull off and excellent Tour when things ended prematurely at a Giro for which one had planned meticulously.

Pantani also didn’t have objectives for the end of the year being the World Championships and a monument. People who adamantly wish him to go forget it isn’t as if Evenepoel is going to ride TdP and Tour of Britain to end the season.

You’re either;
A. Asking Evenepoel to ride and attempt to peak or get close to peak again, and to have three peaks in a year
B. Forget about his fall plans and goals to focus on the TdF peak.

TdS will tell a lot but I’d rather do the Vuelta to potentially win and have success on my World and Lombardi objectives than do the Tour and finish in the top 10 while potentially hampering the fall season.

 

[Extinction]

Pantani also didn’t have objectives for the end of the year being the World Championships and a monument. People who adamantly wish him to go forget it isn’t as if Evenepoel is going to ride TdP and Tour of Britain to end the season.

You’re either;
A. Asking Evenepoel to ride and attempt to peak or get close to peak again, and to have three peaks in a year
B. Forget about his fall plans and goals to focus on the TdF peak.

TdS will tell a lot but I’d rather do the Vuelta to potentially win and have success on my World and Lombardi objectives than do the Tour and finish in the top 10 while potentially hampering the fall season.

Again, I'm thinking about using this Tour as learning experience to then plan a season around the next Tour, which doesn't necessarily exclude doing marvelous things if the form is there. As I think he'll have a better shot at doing well next year at the Tour, if he races this year's edition without pressure. And, again as I've stated, I'd be fine with this even if it's less optimal prep for the Worlds and Lombardia. The Tour is the Big One and I think he and his team should start getting experience of what it really takes to conquer the French GT.

 

[peterfin]

I think the whole "he should go to the tour this year"-discussion was a fair discussion before the season/early in the season. If he prepared for the Tour he should be more than ready for it.

They decided against it and that is the reason why "he isn't ready for the tour". How many years he's been a pro, his age etc is completely irrelevant about if he's ready or not. The fact he aimed for the Giro, got Covid and haven't prepared for the Tour with recon and altitude camps is relevant.

I believe the opposite is true. The tour must be his base case from now on, always. They decided to go to the giro once more because he has unfinished business and the TT's offered him an opportunity, fine. From now on they need a very good reason not to go to the tour and not being optimally prepared isn't one of them. You don't skip the Champions League because you aim for the Conference League.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

I believe the opposite is true. The tour must be his base case from now on, always. They decided to go to the giro once more because he has unfinished business and the TT's offered him an opportunity, fine. From now on they need a very good reason not to go to the tour and not being optimally prepared isn't one of them. You don't skip the Champions League because you aim for the Conference League.

The early 2000s called and they want their cycling priorities back.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

The early 2000s called and they want their cycling priorities back.

Probably depends on where you are and what you value, but if you’re in the US and you value the perspective of the average person, they will only register anything at all if you can say:
1. I won the Tour
2. Or I won’t the Olympics

So if I care most about that, I’d take 1 Tour over 10 Vueltas or 20 Monuments. Obviously, that isn’t a great way to think about your career IMO, but that’s why we got to where we did with LA and Froome.

 

[Big Doopie]

Again, I'm thinking about using this Tour as learning experience to then plan a season around the next Tour, which doesn't necessarily exclude doing marvelous things if the form is there. As I think he'll have a better shot at doing well next year at the Tour, if he races this year's edition without pressure. And, again as I've stated, I'd be fine with this even if it's less optimal prep for the Worlds and Lombardia. The Tour is the Big One and I think he and his team should start getting experience of what it really takes to conquer the French GT.

A GC rider does not gain the experience you think if he is pack fodder. They only gain experience if they are chasing the win and having their team work for them. They then learn from any successes and mistakes/failures.

He will never ride with “No pressure”. That is simply never going to happen.

Not sure exactly what “experience” is so vital that he has to sacrifice competing for wins through the rest/half of the season. He pretty much knows how to ride in a pack, and appears to handle both pressure and press scrutiny more than most. Only competing for the win would provide valuable experience.

Your argument seems non-sensical and requires sacrificing half a season of potential results for basically nothing. Why do that? I really don’t get it at all.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I believe the opposite is true. The tour must be his base case from now on, always. They decided to go to the giro once more because he has unfinished business and the TT's offered him an opportunity, fine. From now on they need a very good reason not to go to the tour and not being optimally prepared isn't one of them. You don't skip the Champions League because you aim for the Conference League.

There are very good reasons for not doing the tour this year (which is not related to being patient and waiting which is the argument I commented against) because of how the season has been planned and what he’s not been doing preparing for the Tour. There is no point in going to the tour for the sake of going for the Tour, when the whole season is planned for.

From next year it of course makes sense to do the tour. Then he and the team should prepare for it.

 

[Extinction]

A GC rider does not gain the experience you think if he is pack fodder. They only gain experience if they are chasing the win and having their team work for them. They then learn from any successes and mistakes/failures.

He will never ride with “No pressure”. That is simply never going to happen.

Not sure exactly what “experience” is so vital that he has to sacrifice competing for wins through the rest/half of the season. He pretty much knows how to ride in a pack, and appears to handle both pressure and press scrutiny more than most. Only competing for the win would provide valuable experience.

Your argument seems non-sensical and requires sacrificing half a season of potential results for basically nothing. Why do that? I really don’t get it at all.

You've overlooked a critical point I've made to suite your argument. And anyone who has read my posts attentively has perceived it.

I'm not saying go to the Tour to be pack fodder, but only without a stated objective, to take off the pressure of having to win. I have also stated quite clearly that upon evaluation at the end of TdS, depending on his condition (great, not good? is he growing or fading?), should, if his numbers are very promising and it's expected he can go the distance, a final decision be made about the Tour. If the right criteria isn't met, then obviously he doesn't go. But if the strength is there, then send him to do as best he can and learn for next year and moving forward.