Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Extinction]

Feel free to disagree. Let's see what happens during the rest of the race.

I disagree, because there was clearly no alternative motive. He was just venting his in my view misplaced anger with the organization.

 

[roundabout]

It has nothing to do with "wanting" not to pay attention, sometimes it just happens. Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum (as you are intentionally doing with your intentional deprecations).

Ok, help me out, my intentional deprecation of what?

That I did not think the finish today was unsafe (edit: and would need changing)? Seriously, what am I deprecating?

 

[Andre]

It has nothing to do with "wanting" not to pay attention, sometimes it just happens. Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum (as you are intentionally doing with your intentional deprecations).

Love the Latin. Thank you Extinction

 

[Riek s]

I disagree, because there was clearly no alternative motive. He was just venting his in my view misplaced anger with the organization.

I disagree, the overhead shot is clear. this setup was bonkers. Yes remco should have slammed his breaks earlier/harder, but if you really can't see any fault in the setup of those people... tja. You see that Vingegaard/Ayuso stopped in time, but they were not out of the way of the other riders that were coming!
I think its worthy shout out, even if he had breaked.

Stupid crash that shouldn't have happened. (either by breaking or by not blocking the runaway), lets just hope there are no big conesquences of that crash.

 

[Extinction]

Ok, help me out, my intentional deprecation of what?

That I did not think the finish today was unsafe (edit: and would need changing)? Seriously, what am I deprecating?

Remco for not braking in time, but you already know that.

 

[Extinction]

I disagree, the overhead shot is clear. this setup was bonkers. Yes remco should have slammed his breaks earlier/harder, but if you really can't see any fault in the setup of those people... tja. I think its worthy shout out, even if he had breaked

Regardless if the landing pad should have been longer, he clearly wasn't looking ahead and paying attention to his environment. Now I don't deride him for that, as another has, but admit he messed up, because there was room to brake. But, yes, there should have been more road to the barriers. Yet in Spain in a MTF often the "landing pad" is quite brief. Hopefully he won't have any consequences from the crash, as clearly he was the strongest today. He looked as explosive as a fine Pogi, which is very impressive, considering he's the best TTer in the world.

 

[Volderke]

here is the overhead shot, thanks to Nightowl in the stage 3 forum for posting it. I have seen the original but it's on Sporza so not linkable without georestrictions.
Also look at how all riders behind had to brake. The organisation simply didn't think about a group sprint.
And mind you, it was 5-6% downhill from even before the finish line, so riders came over the finish with speed and weren't slowing down just stopping with pedalling.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1696202728425259380

View: https://twitter.com/SpoelJo/status/1696202728425259380

 

[Extinction]

here is the overhead shot, thanks to Nightowl in the stage 3 forum for posting it. I have seen the original but it's on Sporza so not linkable without georestrictions.
Also look at how all riders behind had to brake. The organisation simply didn't think about a group sprint.

Now don't crucify me for this, but nor did Remco think to look ahead.

 

[Big Doopie]

48 wins…

Hoping a concussion doesn’t rule out getting to 50 at an earlier age than both Pog and Merckx.

Oh no I didn’t!

 

[Volderke]

Now don't crucify me for this, but nor did Remco think to look ahead.

No, you're absolutely right. It's like having a right of way, seeing a big tractor and not braking with the bike. So you can put on the grave: "I had right of way".
He underestimated his own speed, and he was too much 'in the moment' to quickly think about the practicalities after the finish line.

 

[Extinction]

No, you're absolutely right. It's like having a right of way, seeing a big tractor and not braking with the bike. So you can put on the grave: "I had right of way".
He underestimated his own speed, and he was too much 'in the moment' to quickly think about the practicalities after the finish line.

Yea, exactly, unfortunately, in the euphoria and not expecting the road to end so suddenly, he just wasn't looking ahead. Hopefully there will be no consequences, but the next two days should be pretty straightforward, so there is time to recover.

 

[roundabout]

Remco for not braking in time, but you already know that.

Was Evenepoel not braking in time something that I should have approved for you not to call it deprecation?

Mistakes happen and obviously (bolded for you to be as explicit is possible) what happened today was not intentional.

Where the disagreement lies (I think) as that I do not see what happened as a reason to encourage inattentiveness (obviously unintentional as no sane person would want to crash, again highlighted for the sake of explicitness) by shifting blame away or trying to accommodate such future inattentiveness.

 

[Berniece]

Huh?

There was literally nothing about the finish area today that prevented Evenepoel both from celebrating and not crashing.

You said he celebrated first and thought about safety later. Most people assume that it’s safe to celebrate, since everyone does it

 

[kingjr]

Was Evenepoel not braking in time something that I should have approved for you not to call it deprecation?

Mistakes happen and obviously (bolded for you to be as explicit is possible) what happened today was not intentional.

Where the disagreement lies (I think) as that I do not see what happened as a reason to encourage inattentiveness (obviously unintentional as no sane person would want to crash, again highlighted for the sake of explicitness) by shifting blame away or trying to accommodate such future inattentiveness.

I think there is no risk of that.

 

[Riek s]

Just look at the last frame of that helicopter shot. Where do the riders need to go? You can say that REmco neeed to brake harder, that clear is as daylight imo. But that doesn't make this finish line safe. If they really wanted the riders to take that 90° turn they should have made that very clear, with big signs, because from the rider viewpoint, they just see people who normally split. Look at where Vingegaard is standing still.

 

[roundabout]

You said he celebrated first and thought about safety later. Most people assume that it’s safe to celebrate, since everyone does it

I would hope that most people also think before celebrating how much time they would have to slow down once the hands are back on the brakes.

 

[nightowl]

Was Evenepoel not braking in time something that I should have approved for you not to call it deprecation?

Mistakes happen and obviously (bolded for you to be as explicit is possible) what happened today was not intentional.

Where the disagreement lies (I think) as that I do not see what happened as a reason to encourage inattentiveness (obviously unintentional as no sane person would want to crash, again highlighted for the sake of explicitness) by shifting blame away or trying to accommodate such future inattentiveness.

We put the finish line immediately before a corner on a steep downhill, and you decided to celebrate your stage win instead of expecting us to block off your run-out right at the bottom of that steep downhill? Silly you, why would you be so inattentive!?

 

[Berniece]

I would hope that most people also think before celebrating how much time they would have to slow down once the hands are back on the brakes.

Right because it's so easy to look over the hill when you are sprinting over it

 

[red_flanders]

I have a few thoughts on Remco's behavior over the last few days.

First of all, on the TTT, that was absurd on the part of the organizers. Yes, if sunny and it was likely going to be, the light would have been fine and worked well on TV. Clearly it was way too dark during the last few teams' rides, and it was dumb and dangerous. So I get why he and others were pissed. They should have been.

What I don't like is that as a leader, I want him (or any other leader) to be the calm in the storm, not adding to it. Be the thermostat, not the thermometer. Set the tone. Calm your teammates and focus them on the task at hand. Maybe he's doing a lot of that, I certainly don't know what all goes on behind the scenes. But I don't like to see him losing it at the end of the stage in public like that. Yes, say your piece and give the organization the business, but do it in a more measured, more effective way. Ranting is not a sign of leadership. Sometimes you have to speak out bluntly and directly, but it should be intentional. He's just reacting.

Today his first reaction was to again blame someone else for his problem. While there MAY be a small case to be made that folks were too close to the finish line, he had plenty of time to stop. Totally his fault, and his first reaction is to start complaining. Take responsibility. Admit when you make mistakes, and laugh about your own stupidity. That's what I want from a leader, not more blaming and controversy. Take responsibility even if it's not your fault. You're the leader of the team and now the race.

I like the kid a lot, he's got spirit, and I like the way he rides. He rides like a freaking champion, he gives his all and I like a certain amount of emotion. His celebration today told me he's got a lot of feeling about this race, and he rode a smart, powerful, and impressive race. I don't want him neutered, I want him to be a leader.

He's got some growing to do, and maybe he can adjust his behavior. But his first inclinations when he's stressed are still immature. Just dial it back a bit and focus that energy into getting your team fired up, cared for, and behind you. He's still too focused on himself in times of stress. When he's calm he says and does the right things.

 

[Extinction]

Was Evenepoel not braking in time something that I should have approved for you not to call it deprecation?

Mistakes happen and obviously (bolded for you to be as explicit is possible) what happened today was not intentional.

Where the disagreement lies (I think) as that I do not see what happened as a reason to encourage inattentiveness (obviously unintentional as no sane person would want to crash, again highlighted for the sake of explicitness) by shifting blame away or trying to accommodate such future inattentiveness.

Look, you emphasized the mistake clearly as a put-down in deprecatory fashion, not in terms of human error, however unfortunate for him. And who is encouraging inattentiveness? The fact that you make such a misguided remark only underscores the deprecatory way you view the mistake, as something blameworthy - and not just in the outcome, but morally on him - which is where I totally disagree with you.

 

[Riek s]

I have a few thoughts on Remco's behavior over the last few days.

First of all, on the TTT, that was absurd on the part of the organizers. Yes, if sunny and it was likely going to be, the light would have been fine and worked well on TV. Clearly it was way too dark during the last few teams' rides, and it was dumb and dangerous. So I get why he and others were pissed. They should have been.

What I don't like is that as a leader, I want him (or any other leader) to be the calm in the storm, not adding to it. Be the thermostat, not the thermometer. Set the tone. Calm your teammates and focus them on the task at hand. Maybe he's doing a lot of that, but I don't like to see him losing it at the end of the stage. Yes, say your piece and give the organization the business, but do it in a more measured, more effective way. Ranting is not a sign of leadership. Sometimes you have to, but it should be intentional. He's just reacting.

Today his first reaction was to again blame someone else for his problem. While there MAY be a small case to be made that folks were too close to the finish line, he had plenty of time to stop. Totally his fault, and his first reaction is to start complaining. Take responsibility. Admit when you make mistakes, and laugh about your own stupidity. That's what I want from a leader, not more blaming and controversy. Take responsibility even if it's not your fault. You're the leader of the team and now the race.

I like the kid, he's got spirit, and I like the way he rides. He rides like a freaking champion, he gives his all and I like a certain amount of emotion. His celebration today told me he's got a lot of feeling about this race, and he rode a smart, powerful, and impressive race. I don't want him neutered, I want him to be a leader.

He's got some growing to do, and maybe he can adjust his behavior. But his first inclinations are still immature. Just dial it back a bit and focus that energy into getting your team fired up, cared for, and behind you. Still to focused on himself in times of stress. When he's calm he says and does the right things.

I think people differ in behaviour and what one thinks is best isn't necesarrily better. Situations from the ouside is always easier to look/spectate be less involved. This behaviour isn't something you can change, that is your character. Would take a lot and a lot of effort while not really helping you, its that drive that makes you standout (for good and for worse)
Looking at the helicopter shot i see Vingegaard/Ayuso riding just like remco, straight into the people, just that they could break in time. The problem here isn't the breaking but that the finish and where you need to go. Unless standing still 40meter after the finish with more riders coming up is a great idea?
Being able to break yourself to safety isn't an excuse to make it a danger free zone. Yes Remco is to blame for eventually crashing, but no that doesnt make it 'safe'. I'm assuming that if he was able to break in time he would still be fuming because of the way the setup was. (full break when crossing the line)

Personally in the TTT, if I were the leader (which luckily i'll never be in anything sport related), i would have stepped of the bike with the whole team and walked after the finish. Even if that was a 5km walk. There weren't any images so that would have made for a great case as well.. Today i dunno, Remco will probably eithr acknowledge his mistakes if he thinks he made one, which he has always done before.

 

[saunaking]

Be the thermostat, not the thermometer.

Thanks for this, its awesome!

80% Remco's fault 20% Organizer's

 

[Volderke]

I have a few thoughts on Remco's behavior over the last few days.

First of all, on the TTT, that was absurd on the part of the organizers. Yes, if sunny and it was likely going to be, the light would have been fine and worked well on TV. Clearly it was way too dark during the last few teams' rides, and it was dumb and dangerous. So I get why he and others were pissed. They should have been.

What I don't like is that as a leader, I want him (or any other leader) to be the calm in the storm, not adding to it. Be the thermostat, not the thermometer. Set the tone. Calm your teammates and focus them on the task at hand. Maybe he's doing a lot of that, I certainly don't know what all goes on behind the scenes. But I don't like to see him losing it at the end of the stage in public like that. Yes, say your piece and give the organization the business, but do it in a more measured, more effective way. Ranting is not a sign of leadership. Sometimes you have to speak out bluntly and directly, but it should be intentional. He's just reacting.

Today his first reaction was to again blame someone else for his problem. While there MAY be a small case to be made that folks were too close to the finish line, he had plenty of time to stop. Totally his fault, and his first reaction is to start complaining. Take responsibility. Admit when you make mistakes, and laugh about your own stupidity. That's what I want from a leader, not more blaming and controversy. Take responsibility even if it's not your fault. You're the leader of the team and now the race.

I like the kid a lot, he's got spirit, and I like the way he rides. He rides like a freaking champion, he gives his all and I like a certain amount of emotion. His celebration today told me he's got a lot of feeling about this race, and he rode a smart, powerful, and impressive race. I don't want him neutered, I want him to be a leader.

He's got some growing to do, and maybe he can adjust his behavior. But his first inclinations when he's stressed are still immature. Just dial it back a bit and focus that energy into getting your team fired up, cared for, and behind you. He's still too focused on himself in times of stress. When he's calm he says and does the right things.

You only see his first reactions in the press and in front of the camera. Remco is a hothead in / just after the race, but he is very laid-back out of the race (that's first hand info btw).
While he said in his interview he had enough (something with breaking balls), he also said he should have braked earlier.

I would completely understand he is stressed during the last 3 days: having to ride 2 days in the rain, of which one in the darkness, and winning a MTF and immediately after having to use his best reflexes because there was a wall of people just after his euphoria, thus crashing and bleeding. I thought he was even too relaxed (or fazed?) just after his crash. I would immediately have urged my soigneur to go ASAP to a place to get treated and not lose more of that precious high-octane red liquid.

 

[red_flanders]

I think people differ in behaviour and what one thinks is best isn't necesarrily better.

Yes, I gave my opinion, and others will have their own. All good, it's subjective and I won't argue with someone who has another POV on Remco or leadership. But I'm pretty experienced with leading teams and have strong opinions.

Thanks for this, its awesome!

80% Remco's fault 20% Organizer's

Yeah thank you, I got that actually from a football (American) coach years ago, and it really seems to resonate whenever I drop that one. I think it makes the point beautifully. Can recall several meetings with leaders reporting to me when I've used that and it does always seem to land.

 

[red_flanders]

You only see his first reactions in the press and in front of the camera. Remco is a hothead in / just after the race, but he is very laid-back out of the race (that's first hand info btw).

I agree and acknowledged both these points in the post to which you're responding.