Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[SHAD0W93]

People don’t remember the stage wins as much, unless you are winning crazy amounts

That’s the thing, he could win 2-6 a GT in great form. Then add in the KoM.

 

[Extinction]

Well there were some of us who doubted he can present a real GC challenge against a top quality field in a grand tour. I raised my doubts a couple of weeks before this Vuelta and was ridiculed and even labelled a troll. My doubt was, as it turns out, in order. I did not have any specific evidence - just a hunch based on observing his riding which to me looked a bit erratic. And you don’t want erratic when building and sustaining a GC threat.

At that time I said more is to be revealed during this Vuelta and my assessment now is more firm than before: Remco is not a top GT challenger yet (despite winning one). Hard to pinpoint what he lacks - I’d go with consistency and maturity. He does not strike me as a guy who is confident enough in his ability to wait out patiently when it doesn’t matter and strike when it counts. Like Vingegaard, to give you the most obvious example. It looks like he feels pressure to confirm he’s a real threat and that takes away his energy and his focus. I assume this is something that can be greatly improved over time if he chooses to continue to pursue his GT ambitions. Which I think he should - he’s got a solid base to work on. Just not a top dog yet.

I know this is something you guys (his fans) don’t want to hear, but this opinion is not based on jealousy, hatred or schadenfreude… It’s a valid opinion which is - for the time being - in my opinion reflected by his performance.

Ironically, this cost many of us cycling fans an opportunity for a great race that will now turn into a TJV snoozefest and an orchestrated result that many of us will not be happy with…

Bottom line for me: he should stop hiding and go directly at the beast itself. Go to the Tour. He’s got a great chance now to go under the radar a bit and try to produce a decent GC result. It will help him mature and gain him valuable experience for future GT efforts.

That's all well and good, but he simply botched his preparation. It must be remembered that his proper GT bid was for the Giro. He and his entourage have evidently sinned of hubris, thinking it was possible to keep a full Worlds schedule, winning the TT with it, and be ready for three weeks of the Vuelta. Non of the top GC guys played such a gamble. The inadequacy of managing him at Soudal is dumbfounding, for the moment he shifted gears towards the Vuelta everything should have been predicated upon resistance in the mountains, not the Worlds ITT, which I said would cost him uphill and I was right. Roglic, for example, did everything in function of the Vuelta. Unfortunately for him Jumbo-Visma played the Sepp card, ironically in gaining a tactical advantage over Remco. LMAO

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Still you agree that each of Pog, MVDP and WVA are better at certain terrain such as PR and RVV, MSR and several lesser 1D classics but also at the GTs when there are mountains. Which really was my point.

And Remco is superior to each of them when it comes to other races (Pog in Championship ITT, MVDP in basically all races that reach a mediocre amount of climbing meters, and Wout in mountains/stage races/hilly classics).

My whole point is that he’s no pushover even when he meets these 3 in races that he is competitive in.
(because otherwise you could say that Jonas can’t match the big guys because he isn’t fighting in classics, Roglic can’t match the big guys because he got smoked in Liege, WC and Lombardia 21, MVDP can’t climb, Wout isn’t winning big and Pogacar is not winning bunch sprints. It doesn’t make sense to include these kind of races for these riders, so therefore it doesn’t really make sense to talk about races Remco never have participated in either like RvV and Roubaix.)

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Is Adam Blythe an idiot?

Yes.

On one hand I’d like to see Evenepoel go for GC in GTs. On the other he could rack up many, many GT stage wins doing breakaways.

That’s the thing, he could win 2-6 a GT in great form. Then add in the KoM.

In the last 3 GTs Remco done (I don’t count the first Giro as it was the first race after a long injury and he has confessed it was a massive mistake from him and the team) he’s been aiming for GC.
Vuelta 22: GC win + 2 stage wins
Giro 23: was leading the GC when he dropped out after 9 stages. Still got 2 stage wins.
Vuelta 23: top 3 in GC after before the crack on stage 13. 1 stage win while in GC fight, 1 stage win in break away (so far).

Basically he’s showing that he can win multiple stages while fighting for GC. Very few riders win multiple GT stages in the same GT and he’s been winning two in each of his last 3 GTs. That’s proof that he doesn’t need to drop GC focus to be able to win several stages.

For a rider like David Gaudu, which has not finished on a GT podium while racing traditionally for GC sitting with the other favorites on one hand and in the Vuelta of 21 he won 2 stages and still finished top 10 when riding breakaways on the other hand, the discussion whether he should not ride GC as primary target is legit.
In the case of Remco it doesn’t make much sense. You basically want him to give up a potential big upside (GC win / podium) to try win stages which he statistically is likely to win anyway…

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes.



In the last 3 GTs Remco done (I don’t count the first Giro as it was the first race after a long injury and he has confessed it was a massive mistake from him and the team) he’s been aiming for GC.
Vuelta 22: GC win + 2 stage wins
Giro 23: was leading the GC when he dropped out after 9 stages. Still got 2 stage wins.
Vuelta 23: top 3 in GC after before the crack on stage 13. 1 stage win while in GC fight, 1 stage win in break away (so far).

Basically he’s showing that he can win multiple stages while fighting for GC. Very few riders win multiple GT stages in the same GT and he’s been winning two in each of his last 3 GTs. That’s proof that he doesn’t need to drop GC focus to be able to win several stages.

For a rider like David Gaudu, which has not finished on a GT podium while racing traditionally for GC sitting with the other favorites on one hand and in the Vuelta of 21 he won 2 stages and still finished top 10 when riding breakaways on the other hand, the discussion whether he should not ride GC as primary target is legit.
In the case of Remco it doesn’t make much sense. You basically want him to give up a potential big upside (GC win / podium) to try win stages which he statistically is likely to win anyway…

Do you think Evenepoel could win more then 2 stages if he went for breakaways?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Do you think Evenepoel could win more then 2 stages if he went for breakaways?

Possibly yes. But yesterday showed that it isn’t easy to just come and pick easy breakaway wins when you are considered the strongest and have to do most of the work.

I also think Evenepoel would’ve won more than 2 stages if he had been able to ride the full Giro healthy, so it’s not like riding for GC necessarily makes it impossible to win more than 2.

I fully buy into the idea of winning stages is big to fill your palmares, but the idea that perhaps winning 1 or 2 additional stages doesn’t make much sense for me. Like last year Vuelta 2 stage wins + GC win is more worth than winning 10 stages and finishing 30th in my opinion. A top 3 with two stages is worth more than winning 5 stages and being 12th.

 

[dennisdy]

Is Adam Blythe an idiot?

"I just think he’d be a lot more successful" - Adam Blythe believes Remco Evenepoel would be better suited hunting stages rather than GC at future Grand Tours

Remco Evenepoel saw his ambitions of taking a second Red Jersey at the Vuelta a Espana go up in smoke courtesy of a dramatic collapse on stage 13. The Belgian bounced back in style on stage 14, taking...

cyclinguptodate.com

I don't think he is. In this year's Vuelta Remco has done best in stages that suit him. Stage 13 unnerved him. If it had been a physical problem there was no way he could have stormed to victory the next day.

 

[Extinction]

Possibly yes. But yesterday showed that it isn’t easy to just come and pick easy breakaway wins when you are considered the strongest and have to do most of the work.

I also think Evenepoel would’ve won more than 2 stages if he had been able to ride the full Giro healthy, so it’s not like riding for GC necessarily makes it impossible to win more than 2.

I fully buy into the idea of winning stages is big to fill your palmares, but the idea that perhaps winning 1 or 2 additional stages doesn’t make much sense for me. Like last year Vuelta 2 stage wins + GC win is more worth than winning 10 stages and finishing 30th in my opinion. A top 3 with two stages is worth more than winning 5 stages and being 12th.

Never fret, he's not giving up on GC just yet, inadequite preparation and realizing this was so unhinged him. He'll be back with the right prep to go the full 12 rounds at the Tour next year. If that fails, not necessarilly the win, but being in the fight yes; then he should consider the limitation of his talent. However, he has the skillset to fight for GTs, especially if they put proper TT distance in them, keeping the mountains as they are (although I'd like to see some 245 km multi-pass stages brought back, to test the attrition rate).

 

[kn0s]

This stage hunting focus some are advocating is probably not advisable. It will work to some extent, like we see right now. But you quickly run in to the Sagan effect if you win too much. Nobody will pull with you.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Possibly yes. But yesterday showed that it isn’t easy to just come and pick easy breakaway wins when you are considered the strongest and have to do most of the work.

I also think Evenepoel would’ve won more than 2 stages if he had been able to ride the full Giro healthy, so it’s not like riding for GC necessarily makes it impossible to win more than 2.

I fully buy into the idea of winning stages is big to fill your palmares, but the idea that perhaps winning 1 or 2 additional stages doesn’t make much sense for me. Like last year Vuelta 2 stage wins + GC win is more worth than winning 10 stages and finishing 30th in my opinion. A top 3 with two stages is worth more than winning 5 stages and being 12th.

Yes because he attacked the day before.

Nor is he going to podium this edition. Thus winning 4 plus stages and KoM is more valuable than a low top 10 and 1 stage win. Just like down the road the former will be better than the latter if it comes to that.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Yes because he attacked the day before.

Nor is he going to podium this edition. Thus winning 4 plus stages and KoM is more valuable than a low top 10 and 1 stage win. Just like down the road the former will be better than the latter if it comes to that.

Oh Im sorry if I misunderstood and you talked only about this Vuelta after the crack on stage 13.

Adam Blythe talked about future GTs and in that context I think going for GC is the given way as to go for the next few years as Evenepoel have shown several times that he can combine chasing GC and win stages and now he’s also shown he can win stages from breakaway after losing out in the GC.

 

[bNator]

That's all well and good, but he simply botched his preparation. It must be remembered that his proper GT bid was for the Giro. He and his entourage have evidently sinned of hubris, thinking it was possible to keep a full Worlds schedule, winning the TT with it, and be ready for three weeks of the Vuelta. Non of the top GC guys played such a gamble. The inadequacy of managing him at Soudal is dumbfounding, for the moment he shifted gears towards the Vuelta everything should have been predicated upon resistance in the mountains, not the Worlds ITT, which I said would cost him uphill and I was right. Roglic, for example, did everything in function of the Vuelta. Unfortunately for him Jumbo-Visma played the Sepp card, ironically in gaining a tactical advantage over Remco. LMAO

Out of the guys who managed to stay competitive for GC this Vuelta, very few of them can claim they had optimum prep. Only Ayuso had Vuelta as his main target and even he took a pretty bad crash pre-race which I'm sure many would happily take as a reason for Remco's under-performance. Apart from that, I would say only Roglic had a better prep than Remco. Sepp and Vingegaard for insatnce, both able to at least hold on comfortably in the mountains up to this point if not attacking and gaining time - those two had way worse prep compared to Remco. Another example from the past is Roglic in 2021 who targeted olympic games after crashing heavily in the Tour and still managed to get Vuelta comfortably later on.

You don't implode this bad just because of sub-optimal prep. I think his problem is bigger than that. I went with immature riding and lack of focus, but then other posters highlighted him having problems with following wheels and adopting to others' tempo made, which does make sense as well.

 

[AmRacer]

Oh Im sorry if I misunderstood and you talked only about this Vuelta after the crack on stage 13.

Adam Blythe talked about future GTs and in that context I think going for GC is the given way as to go for the next few years as Evenepoel have shown several times that he can combine chasing GC and win stages and now he’s also shown he can win stages from breakaway after losing out in the GC.

I have never doubted Remco can win stages (one day races) from a breakaway. That's where he excels. I think he could win 35 TdF stages if he wents for it, but then he cannnot go for GC of course.

 

[IndianCyclist]

This stage hunting focus some are advocating is probably not advisable. It will work to some extent, like we see right now. But you quickly run in to the Sagan effect if you win too much. Nobody will pull with you.

There is another aspect also. If you are too strong and in front on the attack, nobody wants to chase you either

 

[theyoungest]

It's nice and all, the stage hunter Evenepoel, but somehow he thinks that the GC teams are still concerned with him. This is just delusional. Jumbo weren't even chasing him, they were chasing Soler. As soon as they caught Soler they were happy to see the break go, with Evenepoel in it.

And the (Belgian) media just blindly reports this, as if Vingegaard is afraid of him. Of course he isn't. They can't give Evenepoel 8 minutes on every stage, but that goes for every rider. It's worse enough that Evenepoel seems to think the world revolves around him, the media don't have to play along.

 

[Berniece]

It's nice and all, the stage hunter Evenepoel, but somehow he thinks that the GC teams are still concerned with him. This is just delusional. Jumbo weren't even chasing him, they were chasing Soler. As soon as they caught Soler they were happy to see the break go, with Evenepoel in it.

And the (Belgian) media just blindly reports this, as if Vingegaard is afraid of him. Of course he isn't. They can't give Evenepoel 8 minutes on every stage, but that goes for every rider. It's worse enough that Evenepoel seems to think the world revolves around him, the media don't have to play along.

So now he's also a liar? He was literally talking with Vingegaard... But you are saying that Remco is making this up, and Vingegaard never said such a thing to him?

Also Kuss said before the stage to him that JV couldn't let him go into to the attack every race, because they wouldn't allow him to take too much time back. But maybe Kuss is also lying about this then.

 

[theyoungest]

So now he's also a liar? He was literally talking with Vingegaard... But you are saying that Remco is making this up, and Vingegaard never said such a thing to him?

Also Kuss said before the stage to him that JV couldn't let him go into to the attack every race, because they wouldn't allow him to take too much time back. But maybe Kuss is also lying about this then.

Vingegaard probably jokingly asked whether he was still going for GC, Evenepoel then turns it into this hyperbole that he had to explain to Vingegaard 10 times that he wasn't. It's just so pointless, and arrogant. You'd think he'd have eaten humble pie after his demasqué just a few days ago.

And like I said, they can't afford to give him a few minutes every stage, for the simple reason that at some point he then becomes a danger on GC again. That's just logical. But yesterday that wasn't the issue at all, which is what I was talking about. They literally did not give a damn about Evenepoel, they just let him ride. Like they would with every stage hunter who isn't a threat on GC.

 

[Berniece]

Vingegaard probably jokingly asked whether he was still going for GC, Evenepoel then turns it into this hyperbole that he had to explain to Vingegaard 10 times that he wasn't. It's just so pointless, and arrogant. You'd think he'd have eaten humble pie after his demasqué just a few days ago.

Lol, and you are a rider in the peloton that heard the conversation? Or the mechanic of Vingegaard?

If you are not directly involved, maybe stop making *** up.

 

[wickedw]

I'm a fan but I think there is a time when we also have to place proper critique at the rider and the team. The word that has appeared in my head a lot this year when it comes down to SQS is amateur. And I think I've been unfair with only putting that on the team. Remco also shows a lot of amateur behaviour.

How many times have I've heard him mention in interviews, youtube videos, etc, that they have a new recipe for rice cakes? That they use slushies now because they've heard that people were doing it? Are you kidding me? It's basically putting up a banner that says "We have no clue what we're doing, come at us". And to me it's blatantly clear that both he and the team have no clue at what they are doing. He has been carried by an immense amount of natural talent but against the top guys, who are not only talented but also professional, that's just not enough.

Then he goes in a break away and wins it in a great fashion. Many cycling fans and media (especially belgian) go beserk again and call it a redemption of sorts. The thing is that it isn't. He failed massively in his attempt to ride a podium in a much harder contested vuelta. Not only did he collapse, he then phoned it in. I am concerned that his exploits and success in break aways, and going for the KOM will obscure the failure or serve as a redemption for themselves that they didn't do so bad after all. Because this vuelta is, in fact, a massive failure for him, no matter how many stages he wins.

 

[Monte Serra]

When your DS is Lodewyck, who never was anywhere near world class, you know that it's easy for Evenepoel to disregard his advice on racing (like yesterday "do nothing, no breakaways").

I would not disagree with the assessment that Lodewyck isn't the ideal DS. But I don't think that it matters too much if a DS has been a world class cyclist. Lefevere himself wasn't exactly world class either, but he was very suitable as a DS. And think of someone like Nicolas Portal, a mediocre cyclist, but a highly respected DS. It takes more to be an effective team leader than just a sumptuous palmares.

 

[theyoungest]

Lol, and you are a rider in the peloton that heard the conversation? Or the mechanic of Vingegaard?

If you are not directly involved, maybe stop making *** up.

Okay. You're free to believe whatever Evenepoel says, even if he quite clearly uses hyperbole. I don't.

 

[peterfin]

Do you doubt your assessment about Remco? (for the record, I'm still not sure about mine, but this Vuelta gave me some valuable "evidence" as you would say)

Yes I do. I hoped that the Vuelta would give me a bit clarity of his physical capabilities to perform well against a strong JV block (because I believe he can) but I didn't get much wiser. On the contrary, I have now the impression that he has psychological stressfactors that hold him back and that are important to conquer in order to progress.

 

[Extinction]

Out of the guys who managed to stay competitive for GC this Vuelta, very few of them can claim they had optimum prep. Only Ayuso had Vuelta as his main target and even he took a pretty bad crash pre-race which I'm sure many would happily take as a reason for Remco's under-performance. Apart from that, I would say only Roglic had a better prep than Remco. Sepp and Vingegaard for insatnce, both able to at least hold on comfortably in the mountains up to this point if not attacking and gaining time - those two had way worse prep compared to Remco. Another example from the past is Roglic in 2021 who targeted olympic games after crashing heavily in the Tour and still managed to get Vuelta comfortably later on.

You don't implode this bad just because of sub-optimal prep. I think his problem is bigger than that. I went with immature riding and lack of focus, but then other posters highlighted him having problems with following wheels and adopting to others' tempo made, which does make sense as well.

Naturally the problem is bigger than that, but I think his hazarded preparation (by keeping WITT as a primary goal, for example), combined with his mind giving up (when he realized his preparation was inadequate and the outside and inside pressure to win the Vuelta became overwhelming with a causus persus), led to the debacle. It's not his physical capacity, in other words. His rebound ride showed his engine isn't the problem. It's a mental thing, which Soudal hasn't helped, nor his own character. But, yes, if he doesn't get that straightened out, he'll be hard pressed to win another GT. On the other hand, if he's better prepared and takes some of the pressure off, he's got the engine to fight for GT success. I wouldn't consider Vingegaard or Kuss in this context, for the former won the Tour and doesn't "have" to win the Vuelta, whereas the latter came with a domestique role, but then found himself in the lead through a tactical break and has super legs, with the best team to get him through to Madrid in red. But there never was great pressure or expectations for Sepp to win and thus no fear of failure, which makes the racing so much easier mentally

 

[QueenStagiaire]

I don‘t think Pogačar should ride GTs for GC, he should stagehunt. He hasn‘t won a GT in over two years and he‘s older than Evenepoel. Why do something that‘s hard if you can do something easy.

 

[AmRacer]

I don‘t think Pogačar should ride GTs for GC, he should stagehunt. He hasn‘t won a GT in over two years and he‘s older than Evenepoel. Why do something that‘s hard if you can do something easy.

Pog could win any GT where Jonas don't race.